Relic Posted February 2, 2011 Share Posted February 2, 2011 Does Robert Gibbs have herpes on his mouth?looks like a scar to meedit - oh shit, haha. might be...bad time for an outbreak Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fez Posted February 2, 2011 Share Posted February 2, 2011 Mubarak is reportedly in Sharm, which isn't that surprising at all:That would explain the mystery of why Egypt asked Israel to allow troops to be deployed in the Sinai; guard the way to Mubarak. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shryke Posted February 2, 2011 Share Posted February 2, 2011 http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-123076981811: BBC world affairs editor John Simpson, in Cairo, says: "Within the last half hour, the heavy battle outside the Egyptian museum between pro- and anti-government demonstrators has ended. Rather unexpectedly, the confrontation seems to have been won by the pro-democracy protesters. All through the day they have been under attack by supporters of President Mubarak, and this represents an important turnaround in the situation. The opposition has now regained control of Tahrir Square, the centre of the last nine days of protests."1816: A senior US official tells the Reuters news agency that the violence on the streets of Cairo has triggered a debate within President Mubarak's inner circle about whether he needs to do more to meet the demands of the protesters.1820: CNN's Ben Wedeman in Cairo tweets: "State TV showing urgent banner warning everyone in Tahrir square to evacuate immediately. (or else?)"Hopeful, interesting then slightly worrying. We'll have to see what comes next.Also:1825: Asked at a news conference if President Obama considers Mr Mubarak a dictator, White House spokesman Robert Gibbs says: "The administration believes that President Mubarak has a chance to show the world exactly who he is by beginning the transition that is so desperately needed by his country." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Relic Posted February 2, 2011 Share Posted February 2, 2011 After he left the square, Mr. Wedeman wrote on Twitter: People in Tahrir square begging Obama to intervene. They are terrified a bloodbath is about to occur. The only way out of Tahrir is thru army lines.... Overheard army officer off Tahrir square. They have no strategy to deal with situation. They are watching passively. All indications are that what is happening in Tahrir Square is government-sanctioned. White House issues pale, weak statement on situation in Cairo. Imagine if Tahrir were in Tehran. Government-sanctioned mass lynch underway in Tahrir Square. The mob has taken over central Cairo. All day CNN Cairo phone, cell phone ringing, people urging us to cover pro-Mubarak demonstrations. All same phrases. White House calls for "restraint" in Cairo. I think it's a bit late for that.http://thelede.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/02/02/latest-updates-on-day-9-of-egypt-protests/?hp?hp Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tormund Ukrainesbane Posted February 2, 2011 Share Posted February 2, 2011 http://i.imgur.com/xvRTw.jpg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yoadm Posted February 2, 2011 Share Posted February 2, 2011 any case, I think he's way too sunny about the "old days" of Mubarak. He doesn't mention at all what the price was for Israeli's hanging out on the beach.The 'price' wasn't for Israeli's to go to the beach, but rather to avert war and save thousands of lives (and tens of billions of dollars). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Padraig Posted February 2, 2011 Share Posted February 2, 2011 Israelis fear that Egypt will go the way of Iran or Turkey, with Islamists gaining control through violence or gradual co-optation.I'm bemused at the idea that they are equating Iran with Turkey. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Former Lord of Winterfell Posted February 2, 2011 Share Posted February 2, 2011 Yossi Klein Halevi, an Israeli who often writes for the New Republic and is usually somewhat right leaning on Israel/Palestine, who I happen to have met and talked to, wrote in the NYT today, pretty much saying the same thing Yoadm has been saying all along:But few Israelis really believe in that hopeful outcome. Instead, the grim assumption is that it is just a matter of time before the only real opposition group in Egypt, the Islamist Muslim Brotherhood, takes power. Israelis fear that Egypt will go the way of Iran or Turkey, with Islamists gaining control through violence or gradual co-optation.So the preferred strategy for those Israelis is...what? Just to prolong the "matter of time" part until Egypt is in the control of radical islamists? As arrogant a prick as I think Bill Kristol is, I think he's fundamentally right. A major change is going to happen -- Mubarak isn't getting any younger. So the strategy for the U.S. and Israel should be to maximize the chance it comes out good rather than sticking our heads in the sand and just trying to prolong the inevitable. And as far as I can see, the course most likely to guarantee that it comes out badly is for the U.S. and/or Israel to stick by Mubarak to the bitter end, because that surely will alienate whomever ends up in power.We need a strong pro-democracy statement, look forward to peaceful relations with whomever the people of Egypt choose to lead their country, etc.. I don't want to veer too much into U.S. politics in this thread, but there seems to be an unholy alliance between elements on the right and within the Administation that value stability for its own sake. And while that may have made sense in some fashion when Mubarak was 30 years younger, it no longer makes sense now. Time for some boldness based on principles, not just expediency, IMHO.btw, even the anti-Israel/anti-west rhetoric I've read from protestors seems to be along the lines of "we hate the jewish bastards, but we really don't want to go to war." Okay, if that's as good as we can get, maybe that's good enough. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Former Lord of Winterfell Posted February 2, 2011 Share Posted February 2, 2011 I'm bemused at the idea that they are equating Iran with Turkey.People hating you isn't a problem unless they go to war. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Relic Posted February 2, 2011 Share Posted February 2, 2011 We need a strong pro-democracy statement, look forward to peaceful relations with whomever the people of Egypt choose to lead their country, etc.. I don't want to veer too much into U.S. politics in this thread, but there seems to be an unholy alliance between elements on the right and within the Administation that value stability for its own sake. And while that may have made sence when Mubarak was 30 years younger, it no longer makes sense now. Time for some boldness based on principles, not just expediency, IMHO.Fuckin A right. Well spoke. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thelonious Posted February 2, 2011 Share Posted February 2, 2011 btw, even the anti-Israel/anti-west rhetoric I've read from protestors seems to be along the lines of "we hate the jewish bastards, but we really don't want to go to war." Okay, if that's as good as we can get, maybe that's good enough.See Lebanon, Syria, etc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fez Posted February 2, 2011 Share Posted February 2, 2011 I don't want to veer too much into U.S. politics in this thread, but there seems to be an unholy alliance between elements on the right and within the Administation that value stability for its own sake. And while that may have made sense in some fashion when Mubarak was 30 years younger, it no longer makes sense now.I'd imagine the feeling is that if Mubarak can hold on, he can maintain enough of an illusion of support that the can somewhat believably rig the elections so that his son wins a nailbiter of a race. Then hope that the people who do support Mubarak will extend their support to Gamal and that the protests will die down since it will be so long before the election. Thus stability is restored and their is never any chance for the radicals.At least that's what makes sense to me; and until today its what I was hoping would occur as well. However as I've said before while I don't particularly value political rights I do value economic and personal rights (even if more for America than elsewhere) and you can't exactly exercise those rights if you're dead, so Mubarak has crossed the line too far for me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Former Lord of Winterfell Posted February 2, 2011 Share Posted February 2, 2011 I'd imagine the feeling is that if Mubarak can hold on, he can maintain enough of an illusion of support that the can somewhat believably rig the elections so that his son wins a nailbiter of a race. Then hope that the people who do support Mubarak will extend their support to Gamal and that the protests will die down since it will be so long before the election. Thus stability is restored and their is never any chance for the radicals.I suppose that is possible, but it sure doesn't seem real likely given Gamal's apparently lack of popularity and his fleeing to London with 100 suitcases. Now, it just looks like prolonging the inevitable, which just doesn't make sense to me because it is inherently defeatist.I think the U.S., and Israel need to change their expectations. Egypt doesn't need to be an ally, or even on friendly terms with either country. All we need is for Egypt to not be outwardly aggressive, and to understand that it can't give a safe haven or home to terrorists striking at other countries. Crap, grab some high ground by supporting democracy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Reptitious Posted February 2, 2011 Share Posted February 2, 2011 FLoW,So the preferred strategy for those Israelis is...what? Just to prolong the "matter of time" part until Egypt is in the control of radical islamists? As arrogant a prick as I think Bill Kristol is, I think he's fundamentally right. A major change is going to happen -- Mubarak isn't getting any younger. So the strategy for the U.S. and Israel should be to maximize the chance it comes out good rather than sticking our heads in the sand and just trying to prolong the inevitable. And as far as I can see, the course most likely to guarantee that it comes out badly is for the U.S. and/or Israel to stick by Mubarak to the bitter end, because that surely will alienate whomever ends up in power.We need a strong pro-democracy statement, look forward to peaceful relations with whomever the people of Egypt choose to lead their country, etc.. I don't want to veer too much into U.S. politics in this thread, but there seems to be an unholy alliance between elements on the right and within the Administation that value stability for its own sake. And while that may have made sense in some fashion when Mubarak was 30 years younger, it no longer makes sense now. Time for some boldness based on principles, not just expediency, IMHO.btw, even the anti-Israel/anti-west rhetoric I've read from protestors seems to be along the lines of "we hate the jewish bastards, but we really don't want to go to war." Okay, if that's as good as we can get, maybe that's good enough. :agree: Heh, I never thought I'd see the day where I completely agree with an entire post of yours, expecially with regards to the Middle East, but, well, here it is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Relic Posted February 2, 2011 Share Posted February 2, 2011 gunfire in or around the square. fuck, it seems the violence is ramping up. This situation might go very very bad tonight in Cairo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Iceman of the North Posted February 2, 2011 Share Posted February 2, 2011 Did I just here a Egyptian minister claim that Mubarak wants to burn Cairo? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Iceman of the North Posted February 2, 2011 Share Posted February 2, 2011 gunfire in or around the square. fuck, it seems the violence is ramping up. This situation might go very very bad tonight in Cairo.Seems like it's the pro-Mubarak crowd that is on the run though, with a tank inside the square turning away from the square. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Relic Posted February 2, 2011 Share Posted February 2, 2011 Did I just here a Egyptian minister claim that Mubarak wants to burn Cairo?yes. Not stepping down might very well lead to that, according to the guy talking right now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Iceman of the North Posted February 2, 2011 Share Posted February 2, 2011 He's the Director of National Heritage, not a cabinet member, still... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erik of Hazelfield Posted February 2, 2011 Share Posted February 2, 2011 I think a lot of people, including the U.S. government, overestimate the danger of the Muslim Brotherhood. They won't launch a war on Israel, both because it would be suicide and because they wouldn't have the people's mandate to do so. People are pissed off because of police brutality, corruption, unemployment and poverty. Those are the issues that any future Egyptian government will have to deal with. Attacking Israel or setting up Al-Qaeda-style terrorist training camps aren't anywhere near the to-do-list, not even for the Brotherhood.I have the feeling Obama's weak statements are more of a message towards the other U.S. backed dictators in the region: "don't worry, we won't suddenly stab you in the back". Indeed, the situation in Egypt right now is a perfect example of why it's such a bad idea to support a dictator in the first place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.