Your favourite Anti-Hero

[Myshkin]

See, my definition of anti-hero doesn't encompass Covenant.

Apparently the technical definition of an anti-hero is simply any protagonist that doesn't fit the heroic mold, any protagonist with qualities that aren't idealized and sympathetic.

I call bullshit on that. By that definition every hero who isn't a wooden, inhuman caricature of heroism is an anti-hero.

As far as I'm concerned, 'anti-hero' means a protagonist whose goals, whose mission doesn't fit the heroic mold. What does Covenant do? He saves the fucking Land. It doesn't get more plain-old-heroic than that. He's a hero who is an asshole, not an anti-hero.

The steps for becoming an anti-hero in my book:

1. I must identify with you as a major character; you must be more the protagonist of your own plot than you are the antagonist of someone else's.

2. You must kill the motherfucker who killed your wife (or similar non-heroic goal). This must not also accomplish a heroic goal - the motherfucker should not be the Dark Lord who holds the land in his terrible thrall. He can be a Ringwraith, but there are more Ringwraiths. This must be the end of your story.

3. I must cheer when you do it, or at least have the distinct impression that the author wanted me to cheer.

You seem to have a fairly strange definition of anti-hero. A person seeking revenge doesn't qualify as anti-hero to me. I view an anti-hero as an unheroic (bad), unsympathetic person who nevertheless is the person the reader is meant to pull for. Yes Covenant saves the Land; that's the point. You are not meant to like Covenant, but you are meant to root for him to defeat Foul. This is a much more complex, and IMO compelling, character than the sympathetic "man pushed too far".

[Grack21]

I am heartened that none of you has answered "Kellhus."

Your Truth shines for all to see.

Having just finished PoN for the first time a few days go, I really, REALLY hope you're kidding.

[Happy Ent]

Having just finished PoN for the first time a few days go, I really, REALLY hope you're kidding.

Men ever heap hope upon that which they cannot fathom. For some truths are too hard to grasp.

Nods earnestly to Triskele, for there can be no deceit between us who have seen His countenance, "Truth shines."

ETA: Drusas Achamian from Second Apocalypse is a good anti-hero.

He betrays his mission for utterly selfish reasons, is constantly conflicted, and does everything he can to prevent the prevention of the end of the world.

Yet we’re firmly on his side.

[Grack21]

Bakker fans scare me. :uhoh:

[Curethan]

The dude in my biography. He's ace.

[Galactus]

I really really hate Heathcliff.

[emberling]

This is a much more complex, and IMO compelling, character than the sympathetic "man pushed too far".

A character I have nothing but derision for is not compelling. The compelling aspects of character are the aspects that reflect ourselves - the aspects that create sympathy. They might be weighed down by flaws and horrors and scars, but they must still be there.

There's nothing inherently complex about making a character who the reader hates. Kill some puppies, rape a bit and you're done. What's complex is making a character who the reader should hate, who the reader would hate if met in real life, but whose perspective is so compelling that it temporarily twists the reader into another form, and for the space of the story the reader is in favor of vigilante justice, oathbreaking, incest, patricide &c, at least in these particular instances of them.

You don't affect me by writing about a jerk who's on my side. That's just irritating. You affect me by writing a jerk who draws me to his side.

[Antonius Pius]

My favourite anti-hero is Ciaphas Cain, Imperial Commissar. I'm currently reading Defender of the Imperium, and I'm having a ball. Basically, it's about an army officer in the Warhammer 40.000 universe, who's essentially trying to dodge as much of his duty as he can. Yet he's inadvertently won a reputation for bravery. The novels are his supposed memoirs, so you're following his thoughts as he struggles from one warzone to another. Greatest point in favour is his humorous style and Cain's wry ibservations as he manipulates and cheats himself ever onwards.

[TheEvilKing]

In books:

Cnaiur ur Skotha if he qualifies

Most of Joe Abercrombie's characters, particularly Cosca

Tyrion and Jaime of Clan Lannister

Karsa Orlong in House of Chains

TV:

Vic Mackey

Omar Little

Mark Antony

Tony Soprano and his buddies

[Curethan]

Karsa Orlong in House of Chains

I dunno how Conan McXerox qualifies. Vague anarchist political veiws aren't really counter to most heroic characteristics.

[Borque]

Bakker fans scare me. :uhoh:

Triskele leaned forward. "We shouldn't have used a Parody when a brief quote would have suited our purposes just the same. And especially not about Kellhus! You told me yourself that was becoming dangerous."

"All is well, Trisk."

"You grow reckless ..."

Have I become such a coward? Happy Ent turned to him. Sap soiled his bandages where they pressed against translucent bark.

"They must fear us," the Ent said. "Now they do."

OnT: I second Covenant, Cnaiür and Achamian as brilliant anti-heroes. And add Cugel the Clever.

[Ahmrogar]

Thomas Covenant takes this alone.

I like other characters, don't get me wrong, but Covenant in the First Chronicles was the best.

See, my definition of anti-hero doesn't encompass Covenant.

Apparently the technical definition of an anti-hero is simply any protagonist that doesn't fit the heroic mold, any protagonist with qualities that aren't idealized and sympathetic.

I call bullshit on that. By that definition every hero who isn't a wooden, inhuman caricature of heroism is an anti-hero.

As far as I'm concerned, 'anti-hero' means a protagonist whose goals, whose mission doesn't fit the heroic mold. What does Covenant do? He saves the fucking Land. It doesn't get more plain-old-heroic than that. He's a hero who is an asshole, not an anti-hero.

The steps for becoming an anti-hero in my book:

1. I must identify with you as a major character; you must be more the protagonist of your own plot than you are the antagonist of someone else's.

2. You must kill the motherfucker who killed your wife (or similar non-heroic goal). This must not also accomplish a heroic goal - the motherfucker should not be the Dark Lord who holds the land in his terrible thrall. He can be a Ringwraith, but there are more Ringwraiths. This must be the end of your story.

3. I must cheer when you do it, or at least have the distinct impression that the author wanted me to cheer.

Your definition is wrong. If anything, it'd just be a type of Anti-Hero you're describing, the term is too broad for your definition.

An anti hero is still a hero of the story (as ironic as that may be), just without the traditional characteristics. For ASOIAF examples, there's some very good reasons why Ned, Robb and Davos are easily identifiable heroes. They fit the traditional mode. Likewise why people could claim Jaime and Tyrion as good antiheroes.

I think to keep things broad, an antihero generally has negative motivations (such as revenge, laziness, power, whatevers) while a hero generally has positive motivations (protecting loved ones, restoring peace, defeating evil to make the world a better place).

Hell, really, you can have a viable anti hero just by having a bad guy being the protagonist fighting against worse (or equally as bad) guys.

[Mark Lawrence]

Cugel the Clever, Tyrion, Aiken Drum

[Hereward]

Men ever heap hope upon that which they cannot fathom. For some truths are too hard to grasp.

Nods earnestly to Triskele, for there can be no deceit between us who have seen His countenance, "Truth shines."

Thanks for that. I do love spoilers.

[MinDonner]

Board law #57 - every discussion of anti-heroes will invariably and immediately dissolve into arguments about what a REAL anti-hero is. Because the term couldn't possibly have more than one meaning.

I'd love to say Glokta, but I have trouble sticking most of Abercrombie's characters into any kind of hero/villain/whatever box, and he might possibly be a favourite villain instead. Or both. Or neither. So I'll go with Flashman. Great anti-hero or greatest anti-hero?

[Happy Ent]

Thanks for that. I do love spoilers.

Was it? I don’t think it reveals anything, but I’m happy can put spoiler tags around it if you want. Better err on the safe side…

Apologies.

(This only makes sense if you remove my quoted passage, though.)

[Maithanet]

No mention of Rorschach yet? He's like Batman if he were poor and unattractive. His morals are often in the right place, but his lifestyle is that of vigilante/vagrant and he is utterly inflexible in all things.

"Soon there will be war. Millions will burn. Millions will perish in sickness and misery. Why does one death matter against so many? Because there is good and there is evil, and evil must be punished. Even in the face of Armageddon I shall not compromise in this."

[Hereward]

Was it? I don’t think it reveals anything, but I’m happy can put spoiler tags around it if you want. Better err on the safe side…

Apologies.

(This only makes sense if you remove my quoted passage, though.)

Thanks.

I don't know if it reveals anything significant as the book's just reached next to top of my "To Read" pile, but it seems to suggest actions and motivations on Achamian's part that were not apparent to me after reading The Judging Eye, though that's due a re-read first, so I can't say for certain.

[The Mad Queen]

I am converted.

It would be really showing my age if I said I've never heard of this little fur-ball.

[Nukelavee]

Ciaphas Cain/Flashman - although Flash really lacks any virtues, lol.

This is about favourite, not best, according to title, so, sure, you can have Covenant. Personally, I could barely get thru the books, my complete lack of interest in Tommy, or anything else in the series, made it a wonder I even finished them.