Tyrion as a Targaryen

[Wmarshal]

That doesn't make that much sense seeing how he said Ned named Jon, a man more a father to Jon then Tywin to Tyrion.

[UnmaskedLurker]

The "his father named him" SSM probably shouldn't be taken as confirmation that Tywin was his biological father. Even if Tyrion is Aery's bastard Tywin raised him as a son, and is still he father in every sense but biologically.

This. GRRM would be careful to say "Ned" rather than "Jon's father" in terms of who named Jon just because there is so much attention around Jon's parentage. But even if Tywin is not Tyrion's biological father, it is very understandable under the circumstances that GRRM would say Tyrion's father named him and mean Tywin--even knowing that eventually it will be revealed that Aerys is the bio-dad.

And I seem to recall that we have some clue that Tywin named Tyrion after an infamous Lannister ancestor whose name was Tyrion and that everyone in CR would understand to be an insulting name to give someone now. Does anyone else remember that information about the name Tyrion?

[RumHam]

This. GRRM would be careful to say "Ned" rather than "Jon's father" in terms of who named Jon just because there is so much attention around Jon's parentage. But even if Tywin is not Tyrion's biological father, it is very understandable under the circumstances that GRRM would say Tyrion's father named him and mean Tywin--even knowing that eventually it will be revealed that Aerys is the bio-dad.

And I seem to recall that we have some clue that Tywin named Tyrion after an infamous Lannister ancestor whose name was Tyrion and that everyone in CR would understand to be an insulting name to give someone now. Does anyone else remember that information about the name Tyrion?

It was from the History of the Westerlands reading:

Tyrion II was known as the Tormentor. He enjoyed making women bleed.

http://www.historyofwesteros.com/concarolinas-westerlands-reading/

[Wmarshal]

No it isn't, you can't pick and trues what is evidence of ones heritage and try to say, well the rule just appealed to Jon.

[RumHam]

No it isn't, you can't pick and trues what is evidence of ones heritage and try to say, well the rule just appealed to Jon.

There's no rule here at all. Just people analyzing something Martin said in an email twelve years ago. As UnmaskedLurker said he was at that time aware that some fans were onto him about Ned not being Jon's father. He may have chosen his words carefully so as to avoid ambiguity about who named Jon since he knew many fans did not consider Ned to be his father. There would be no reason at that point to dance around Tyrion's paternity. I'm sure he's called Tywin Tyrion's father many times, because that's what he is regardless of who impregnated Joanna that last time.

[Wmarshal]

That is same true as Jon, you can say, he had no point of dong that, but if such care to think a head Tyrion not being a son of Tywin would also com to his mind, these theory as been going on as long as Jon's, to say, well Tywin is Tyrion's father anyway ignores how no matter what the fans say, by rule of that SSM that Ned is Jon's true father, but no he went with blood.

[RumHam]

That is same true as Jon, you can say, he had no point of dong that, but if such care to think a head Tyrion not being a son of Tywin would also com to his mind, these theory as been going on as long as Jon's, to say, well Tywin is Tyrion's father anyway ignores how no matter what the fans say, by rule of that SSM that Ned is Jon's true father, but no he went with blood.

He wasn't trying to give any hints about who might not actually be their father's son. He was just being clear about the naming of Jon because he knew if he said "his father" that would leave his obsessed readers wondering if it was Rhaegar or Ned. If he had been named after Jon Arryn or Jon Connigton. In terms of evidence for Tywin being Tyrion's biological father, that SSM quote is extremely weak.

[UnmaskedLurker]

That is same true as Jon, you can say, he had no point of dong that, but if such care to think a head Tyrion not being a son of Tywin would also com to his mind, these theory as been going on as long as Jon's, to say, well Tywin is Tyrion's father anyway ignores how no matter what the fans say, by rule of that SSM that Ned is Jon's true father, but no he went with blood.

GRRM speaks with precision, but no one can speak with the level of precision you seem to be requiring. He was answering a question. He likely had the controversy surrounding Jon on his mind so he was more careful to say "Ned" rather than "Jon's father" just to tread lightly on a big issue of controversy. That does not mean that if Aerys is Tyrion's bio-dad, that GRRM would not basically refer to Tywin as Tyrion's father in the context of the question he was answering. There simply was no reason at that time for GRRM to think he had to choose his words regarding Tyrion and Tywin that carefully.

[Wmarshal]

How? Tywin was never a true father to Tyrion, biology is there only connection. You seem to act as if that was an answer to a Jon question, but really a question on how names are chosen. Martin went on about this without any need.

[UnmaskedLurker]

How? Tywin was never a true father to Tyrion, biology is there only connection. You seem to act as if that was an answer to a Jon question, but really a question on how names are chosen. Martin went on about this without any need.

IIRC, the question was who named Jon, Dany and Tyrion. GRRM answered that Jon was named by Ned, Dany by her mother and Tyrion by his father. His answer is intended to communicate meaning to the person asking the question. GRRM was aware that if he said Jon's "father" that the person asking the question just might have a question as to who was being referenced (given the well-known controversy over Jon's parentage). On the other hand, at that point in time, GRRM would have very little doubt that if he said Tyrion's "father" that everyone would understand that the reference is to Tywin. So to accomplish the goal of communicating information, GRRM chose the correct words--regardless whether Tywin actually is Tyrion's biological father. GRRM's statement is still technically true, as Tywin was recognized by the world as Tyrion's father. So GRRM avoided saying anything untrue while communicating the answer to the questioner in a way that was most likely to be understood. GRRM did not think he was in the process of writing "canon" that would be analyzed word-for-word for decades to come.

[HexMachina]

I don't understand. Are there two separate sides to this theory; one that claims Tyrion is the product of Aerys raping Joanna, and one that has it as a consensual relationship? Thats what it appears to me at least.

To the former, why would Joanna keep the child if Aerys had raped her?

*bump* before I'm buried. I'm genuinely curious as to whether I'm misunderstanding or whether there is an explanation

[RumHam]

*bump* before I'm buried. I'm genuinely curious as to whether I'm misunderstanding or whether there is an explanation

I can only speak for myself but I don't know why people assume that he raped her. We know nothing about Joanna, or how she felt about Aerys. Unless I'm mistaken Tyrion would have been conceived well before Duskendale, when Aerys really started to go crazy.

[Wmarshal]

How is that such a fact? Tyrion's parentage has been a issue the same as Jon's forever, else these thread wouldn't keep pooping up. You say, oh he can't mean Tywin as his bio dad, even though blood is all Tywin and Tyrion, because are theories require it not to be true. Unless you are willing to argue Ned can still be Jon's dad by that SSM, the use can't be that, open for interpretation.

Enough about the SSM, seeing how Tywin, the most unfatherly man on Planetos, can't possibly be Tyrion's dad, what proof of yours is so strong?

[7th-key]

His aunt basically confirmed that he is Tywin's son through and through. If anyone's a Targaryen, it's Jaime and Cersei, the incestuous, blonde nutjobs that totally have a Targaryen complex. This is, incidentally, practically confirmed by Jaime's vision of the silent sister who happens to be his mother.

That dream (or vision) could also be interpreted as simply the failure of Jaime and Cersei to become a true knight and legitimate queen (Cersei's claim is now invalid since her kids are bastards). But then again, I don't see why Tywin would be bothered by that, the title being all that matters.

Then, there's Jaime's dream after he had to leave Brienne behind at Harrenhal. It made him go back to help Brienne, and told her "I dreamt of you". Cleverly, it could have been caused by the weirwood stump he was resting his head on. On the other hand, Brienne has been hinted to be a descendant of Dunk (tall, thick as a castle wall, the shield), and "I dreamt of you" is exactly what Dearen Targaryen (Egg's brother) told Dunk.

Talk about dragon dreams.

[pobeb]

Tyrion is a gargoyle, you sillies. Check the link in my signature for proof.

Interestingly, various gargoyles in this story are noted wyverns. A wyvern is a dragon.

Boom

I'm guessing no one wants to address this?

You can't have a debate about Tyrion being a Targaryen and ignore his gargoyle references.

You can't ignore the fact that he isn't dead or dying after swallowing "half the Rhoyne", which is basically liquid death. He reflects later about Septon Barth's notes on dragons, and how death comes out of a dragon's mouth (note that the mouth is also Tyrion's strongest weapon) but not into a dragon's mouth (which is why Tyrion is fine and Griff is wilting). Why else would GRRM have Tyrion remember this specific passage? Come on, do your homework guys!

[Lord Varys]

I've always been in the consensual relationship camp - and I really don't see how you can believe that Aerys would have raped Joanna at all, at least not after ADwD. Even before the book came out, the rape theory was very weak indeed, since there is no reason to assume that she would not have told Tywin. Most certainly, she would have aborted the child.

The thought that Aerys would rape anyone around the time of Tyrion's conception is strange, too. There is no hint whatsoever in the books that his madness pre-Duskendale had any/much violent tendencies whatsoever. Aerys had his lapses, apparently, but he was no Maegor/Aerion kind of character (not even like Daemon). He was nice, amiable, and open-handed guy, when he did not have his lapses.

If Aerys had always been cruel and mad, not even Tywin could have prevented a rebellion for this long.

[UnmaskedLurker]

How is that such a fact? Tyrion's parentage has been a issue the same as Jon's forever, else these thread wouldn't keep pooping up. You say, oh he can't mean Tywin as his bio dad, even though blood is all Tywin and Tyrion, because are theories require it not to be true. Unless you are willing to argue Ned can still be Jon's dad by that SSM, the use can't be that, open for interpretation.

Enough about the SSM, seeing how Tywin, the most unfatherly man on Planetos, can't possibly be Tyrion's dad, what proof of yours is so strong?

The SSM does not prove that Ned is not Jon's bio-dad. It is consistent with that conclusion, but is not proof. Each clue in isolation is not necessarily proof. The clues that Ned is not Jon's bio-dad are very numerous (see 90 iterations of R+L=J, plus all the off-shoot threads discussing this issue). If all I had was the SSM as the only suggestion that Ned is not Jon's bio-dad, I would dismiss the possibility. It is just one little piece of evidence in the larger scheme of clues in the text.

I disagree strongly that Tyrion's parentage is as big an issue for as long as Jon's parentage. This issue of who is Jon's mother is raised directly in the book. The number of outside sources other than this board discussing R+L=J is numerous. Other than this board, where else is anyone discussing that Tyrion might be a Targ? Nowhere that I have ever seen. And blood is not all that T&T have binding them. Tyrion has been trying to get Tywin's love and respect all of Tyrion's life. Tyrion has emulated himself after Tywin--which is what the comment by the aunt is all about--that Tyrion is the "true" son of Tywin because they are so much like each other. But that is the irony. Tyrion made himself like Tywin because he wanted Tywin's approval (which was never going to be forthcoming), while in truth, Tyrion was not even Tywin's biological son.

As far as my proof--I have no "proof" but I have evidence in support. Look throughout this thread as well as the original A+J=T thread (http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/75441-a-j-t/). Is any of that absolute "proof"? Of course not. But the clues are there and no other theory plugs the large hole of who could be the third head of the dragon. Without the need for a hidden Targ to be the third head of the dragon, I am not sure I would be convinced (although I find the parallels between Jon, Dany and Tyrion fairly compelling evidence as well). But when the need for a hidden Targ to be the third head is added to the numerous other clues, the support for this theory becomes fairly strong (IMHO).

[HexMachina]

I've always been in the consensual relationship camp - and I really don't see how you can believe that Aerys would have raped Joanna at all, at least not after ADwD. Even before the book came out, the rape theory was very weak indeed, since there is no reason to assume that she would not have told Tywin. Most certainly, she would have aborted the child.

Yeah, this was one of the problems I had(have) with the Aerys + Joanna = Tyrion theories. I couldn't see who or why she wouldn't tell Tywin or abort the child. However, I also think we lack evidence suggesting Joanna returned Aerys affection.

My position summed up: I can see the pros and cons of the theory so far, but will reserve judgement until we have further evidence (for example, if the World Book tells us something like "Lady Joanna frequently called on her husband at Court" or "and in the year 271 AC a great tourney was held at Lannisport, where King and Court attended" I will count it strong evidence towards the theory.)

[UnmaskedLurker]

I've always been in the consensual relationship camp - and I really don't see how you can believe that Aerys would have raped Joanna at all, at least not after ADwD. Even before the book came out, the rape theory was very weak indeed, since there is no reason to assume that she would not have told Tywin. Most certainly, she would have aborted the child.

The thought that Aerys would rape anyone around the time of Tyrion's conception is strange, too. There is no hint whatsoever in the books that his madness pre-Duskendale had any/much violent tendencies whatsoever. Aerys had his lapses, apparently, but he was no Maegor/Aerion kind of character (not even like Daemon). He was nice, amiable, and open-handed guy, when he did not have his lapses.

If Aerys had always been cruel and mad, not even Tywin could have prevented a rebellion for this long.

Assuming A+J=T, I don't know that we can be sure at this point if the conception was rape or consensual. We just have not been given enough information. One theory I have seen is that perhaps it was rape and Joanna attempt to abort but the process was unsuccessful--resulting in Tyrion's "deformity" (yes I know dwarfism is genetic, but this is a fantasy story). I have thought the rape thesis more likely just because it was more consistent with the notion of Aerys as a bad guy--which is the gist of most of what we know about him--and as you note--he had his "lapses" which might include acting on strong lust. I would imagine that once the attempt to abort failed, there would be a 0% chance Joanna would tell Tywin. Nothing good could come of Tywin knowing that his wife was raped and will give birth to a child of Aerys. I think we know Tywin enough to know that Joanna would be smarter than to tell him that information.

Of course this is all speculation, and if Aerys is the father, we can only wait to see whether the circumstances of conception are revealed.

[pobeb]

I'm guessing no one wants to address this?

LOL, guess not! Have fun talking in circles about the same tired consensual vs nonconsensual sex argument. Favoring subjectivity over objective truths seems to be the flavor nowadays.

Hopefully someone eventually wakes up, and realizes how substantial the gargoyle metaphors are towards this debate.

Nobody is even discussing how uniquely similar Tyrion is to both Dany and Jon - two people we can all agree are, at least, part Targaryen. Go click on, "Connecting the Dragon Heads" in my signature. And no, this isn't me trying to pimp my threads out, it's me trying to spread some knowledge and sense.

You can't deny the glaring similarities between Tyrion, Jon, and Dany. In that same sense, it's foolish to rule him out as being part Targaryen.