Major League Baseball

[TheBigTEA]

MC-

Well the Packers won the SB last year and I am thinking I am still doing ok? =)

Who knows though...been so long since the Brewers have won ANYTHING maybe it will go to my head lol.

I have to agree with you about the whole Barry Bonds thing. The guy was amazing BEFORE his head grew 2 inches in 6 months or whatever that story is. Looking through his statistics he was an easy Hall of Famer from the start and I think it is funny that his OBVIOUS use of steroids is what will keep him out.

My view on steroids in baseball is a little different than most people those..I don't think they had that big of an impact on the game. I played baseball at a pretty high level and I can tell you when you have it in baseball, you have it, and when you don't...well you don't. The steroids really only help in healing and strength and that only gets you so far if you don't have the hand eye coordination required to play. I think the prevailing attitude of baseball in general and the need to attract fans had more to do with the "juice" era than any juice ever did.

That said I am not defending the players that took them, just saying I don't think they inflated the stats as much as people claim.

[MercenaryChef]

i am going to disagree with you, bigtea.

the 'it' that a good ballplayer has is amplified a great deal by the juice. big mac would not have been crushing bombs like he was into his late 30's without the juice. he had the 'it' but he also had the juice.

[TheBigTEA]

MC-

Big Mac had it, but age and injuries caught up with him and the juice helped him fight that off. I guess I should restate myself. Steroids helped good players stay good by letting them play at a high level for a longer time than they naturally would have. I will stand by my statement that it didn't make people that could not play the game well suddenly play the game better. And I still think the people running the game of baseball contributed to the inflated homer totals more than steroids ever did.

Not that I am saying steroids are good or that they should have a place in the game, I just don't think the accomplishments of some of the players of that era should be written off so easily.

Thanks!

Ty

[Manhole Eunuchsbane]

MC-

My view on steroids in baseball is a little different than most people those..I don't think they had that big of an impact on the game. I played baseball at a pretty high level and I can tell you when you have it in baseball, you have it, and when you don't...well you don't. The steroids really only help in healing and strength and that only gets you so far if you don't have the hand eye coordination required to play. I think the prevailing attitude of baseball in general and the need to attract fans had more to do with the "juice" era than any juice ever did.

But those factors in the MLB are huge. The season is a grind of epic proportions. Granted, Roids aren't going to help your hand/eye, but the recovery advantage over those who aren't using is huge over a six month plus long season.

[TheBigTEA]

ME-

I can't argue with that. However, I still have to stick to my point about it not making a middle of the road player a better player. I also don't think it made a great player greater, just maybe a healthier players for the short term. I get what your saying..natural injuries and fatigue take their toll over the course of a season and steroids help with that.

I also understand how this can inflate a players stats over a season, but again I think these players would have been great players anyway.

[Lord O' Bones]

Here we go...

Paging Stego!

[TheBigTEA]

Oh no, did I hit on a shitty topic? :dunce:

[Manhole Eunuchsbane]

I also understand how this can inflate a players stats over a season, but again I think these players would have been great players anyway.

No doubt about it. Bonds would've been great without the juice. That being said, going from an average of 25 HRs a season to peaking at 73 is some pretty potent inflation. To imply that it doesn't make all that much of a difference is a bit disengenous, methinks.

[MercenaryChef]

But those factors in the MLB are huge. The season is a grind of epic proportions. Granted, Roids aren't going to help your hand/eye, but the recovery advantage over those who aren't using is huge over a six month plus long season.

indeed. that is my point. if you are already a really good player and are recovering at such a rate that the 162 game season is easier and you are able to continue producing it does have an effect.

ME-

I can't argue with that. However, I still have to stick to my point about it not making a middle of the road player a better player. I also don't think it made a great player greater, just maybe a healthier players for the short term. I get what your saying..natural injuries and fatigue take their toll over the course of a season and steroids help with that.

I also understand how this can inflate a players stats over a season, but again I think these players would have been great players anyway.

that is my feeling as well. there are some names on the mitchell report that are average players. you look at them and go 'really?' but, the juice did take a man like barry who would have already been one of the best ever and made him insane. it is hard to deny that.

Here we go...

Paging Stego!

are you sure? have you not seen this show enough times?

[TheBigTEA]

No doubt about it. Bonds would've been great without the juice. That being said, going from an average of 25 HRs a season to peaking at 73 is some pretty potent inflation. To imply that it doesn't make all that much of a difference is a bit disengenous, methinks.

My point is that I don't think that steroids had as much of an impact as the way baseball was handled at the time. This includes the way bats were made, the way the ball was made, the way the game was called, the size of parks etc etc.. Baseball NEEDED something to get people back into the game and what is better than a shit tons of home runs? Offense coming out the the asshole. Baseball people love a pitchers duel as much as anything, but baseball hadn't lost the baseball crowd, it had lost the casual fan. The beer drinking, fun loving every-man that loves nothing more than watching a 480 foot homerun.

I am not saying it didn't make a difference, just not as huge as people claim.

[MercenaryChef]

My point is that I don't think that steroids had as much of an impact as the way baseball was handled at the time. This includes the way bats were made, the way the ball was made, the way the game was called, the size of parks etc etc.. Baseball NEEDED something to get people back into the game and what is better than a shit tons of home runs? Offense coming out the the asshole. Baseball people love a pitchers duel as much as anything, but baseball hadn't lost the baseball crowd, it had lost the casual fan. The beer drinking, fun loving every-man that loves nothing more than watching a 480 foot homerun.

I am not saying it didn't make a difference, just not as huge as people claim.

the steroid era filled ballparks. but, to say baseball needed it is madness. it is not like clubs would have folded had dudes not been crushing 500 foot homeruns 50 times a season.

face it. baseball is boring and a total waste of time to the majority of people. basketball is fast with lots of points, football is full of hits and excitement, hockey even has the ability to draw people in which baseball lacks. it is not america's game. america by in large cares not a shit about it. and that is fine. perhaps baseball needs to be a niche market. maybe some teams do need to fold. in the 90's baseball turned a blind eye to cheating. they wanted the homerun race that overshadowed actual team competition. they wanted the obscene sideshow. they wanted the revenue. they wanted the full ballparks. eventually it was all found out. the smoke and mirrors were vanquished and the integrity of 'america's game' was brought into question.

it was a huge deal. perhaps not on the field in large because of the mediocre players juicing. but it will forever be a huge deal that will be thought of. bautista will never be able to not be questioned about steroid use. his increase in homers are so gross that people automatically think he like sosa, mac and bonds is dirty.

[Manhole Eunuchsbane]

My point is that I don't think that steroids had as much of an impact as the way baseball was handled at the time. This includes the way bats were made, the way the ball was made, the way the game was called, the size of parks etc etc..

I agree that hoisting Bonds up as the villian of the steroid era is unfair. You'd better put Selig and countless other owners and GMs up on the scaffold with him. It was an endemic problem, not an individual one.

[Lord O' Bones]

Oh no, did I hit on a shitty topic? :dunce:

Not at all. In fact, I completely agree with you. But this conversation (especially involving Bonds) if mostly played out between Dodgers fans, Giants fans (and you) that feel as we do, and Giants fans that feel as Manhole does, it's been proven to go nowhere without outside contributions. And Stego knows all there is to know about steroid use and the common knee-jerk reactions or wrong conclusions on either side.

are you sure? have you not seen this show enough times?

Obviously, I have. But let's not deprive Ty.

[Lightning Lord]

I disagree. I think Bonds is a pretty good villain for the era, as outlined by Mercenary Chef up above. I despise the guy much more than Mac or Sosa just because he plays the innocent victim non-stop. If he weren't such a colossal prick about it, I think he'd be less-hated.

ETA: I still have some residual dislike of the Giants just because Bonds was on the team.

[MercenaryChef]

I disagree. I think Bonds is a pretty good villain for the era, as outlined by Mercenary Chef up above. I despise the guy much more than Mac or Sosa just because he plays the innocent victim non-stop. If he weren't such a colossal prick about it, I think he'd be less-hated.

fucking right, panda dude. fucking right. he truly wants us all to believe that of all the monsters out there just beating the shit out of the ball with heroic and epic numbers he was the clean one. yeah. the guy with the mutant hat size, the thighs the size of hondas and the ability to hit 73 homers in a season was clean. fuck off, barry. the dudes you beat have come out as dirty. but, you by some grace of christ, talent and hard work have allowed you to defeat these men. please.

[Bronn Stone]

The San Diego Padres drew 2,000,000 fans this season. Baseball draws more fans than any of the other three major sports, by a long way. Yes, it is the result of a much larger season, but the death of baseball has been dramatically overstated. The TV contracts are still worth a lot of money. People are still paying to see it. Games in many places regularly sell out. The game is thriving in every category except perception.

[Manhole Eunuchsbane]

fucking right, panda dude. fucking right. he truly wants us all to believe that of all the monsters out there just beating the shit out of the ball with heroic and epic numbers he was the clean one. yeah. the guy with the mutant hat size, the thighs the size of hondas and the ability to hit 73 homers in a season was clean. fuck off, barry. the dudes you beat have come out as dirty. but, you by some grace of christ, talent and hard work have allowed you to defeat these men. please.

But who's buying it? I'm a lifelong Giants fan born and raised in the Bay Area. He's dirtier than a Jenna Jameson flick. The guy is a colossal, delusional prick, no doubt. That being said, I don't think he's as guilty as Selig or Peter Magowan are. If you're a baseball purist, I think those two (among others) are your true villians.

[Manhole Eunuchsbane]

Oops. Repost.

[Lightning Lord]

I think the players that cheated are worse than the people who just covered their eyes and pretended not to see. They're bad, no doubt. But they also don't have the sheer arrogance to perpetuate this baby-faced innocent charade.

I'm okay with not being a baseball purist. I also okay with disliking people that are full-on douche canoes.

[Bronn Stone]

On the subject of true culpability for the steroid issue, I think it is important to recall just how strenuously the Players Association fought (and continues to fight) every effort for serious testing and serious penalties. I take the Players side in almost every labor dispute, but not this one. Every serious cleanup effort was fought tooth and nail by the Association and attorneys for individual players accused of cheating.

You can't blame Selig and Magowen for Bonds' actions, which they simply could not prove in a court of law. They couldn't ban him, couldn't void his contract and couldn't collude against him without serious legal repercussions.