Major League Baseball

[Dinsdale!]

I agree that hoisting Bonds up as the villian of the steroid era is unfair. You'd better put Selig and countless other owners and GMs up on the scaffold with him. It was an endemic problem, not an individual one.

I remember reading Moneyball and thinking to myself, "wow Billy Beane sure spent a lot of time in the weight room with his players." How much you want to bet he knew Giambi was juicing?

[Manhole Eunuchsbane]

I think the players that cheated are worse than the people who just covered their eyes and pretended not to see. They're bad, no doubt. But they also don't have the sheer arrogance to perpetuate this baby-faced innocent charade.

I'm okay with not being a baseball purist. I also okay with disliking people that are full-on douche canoes.

When has Selig ever appeared apologetic? He's every bit the liar and actor that Bonds is. And you don't let the inmates run the asylum. The Commish, the owners and the GMs are more complicit than the players. They set the rules.

I'm cool with the Sports Hate, though. I fully understand why people hate him. He was hated before it became clear (or should I say cream) that he was using Roids.

[Lord O' Bones]

I think the players that cheated are worse than the people who just covered their eyes and pretended not to see. They're bad, no doubt.

Right. Some of them were like crabs trying to climb over each other to the detriment of all, but they weren't in charge of an entire league or two. The bosses are the bosses and are in charge for a reason. They get the pay and the power and the responsibility.

But they also don't have the sheer arrogance to perpetuate this baby-faced innocent charade.

And yet they did for years, until the media forced them to be just as arrogantly full of shit.

I'm okay with not being a baseball purist.

Well, duh. AL fan.

I also okay with disliking people that are full-on douche canoes.

Well, natch. And I agree. I don't like Bonds either as a human being.

[Bronn Stone]

When has Selig ever appeared apologetic? He's every bit the liar and actor that Bonds is. And you don't let the inmates run the asylum. The Commish, the owners and the GMs are more complicit than the players. They set the rules.

I'm cool with the Sports Hate, though. I fully understand why people hate him. He was hated before it became clear (or should I say cream) that he was using Roids.

You do understand that labor rules in major sports are the result of negotiations between players unions and management and the right to single-handedly impose drug testing is NOT available to management, don't you? Actually, it would seem you don't.

[Lord O' Bones]

You do understand that labor rules in major sports are the result of negotiations between players unions and management and the right to single-handedly impose drug testing is NOT available to management, don't you? Actually, it would seem you don't.

Is part of that agreement to remain silent about what they know is going on? And then claiming ignorance once discovered?

I know they were in a difficult place. Leadership deals with it. Cowards and people with their heads in the sand do what they did.

[TheBigTEA]

The San Diego Padres drew 2,000,000 fans this season. Baseball draws more fans than any of the other three major sports, by a long way. Yes, it is the result of a much larger season, but the death of baseball has been dramatically overstated. The TV contracts are still worth a lot of money. People are still paying to see it. Games in many places regularly sell out. The game is thriving in every category except perception.

The Padres only drew 2 million? Wow, that puts the Brewers drawing 3 million this year into pretty good perspective.

And look what happens when you step away to make dinner! Holy shit, can of worms....opened!

[Lightning Lord]

The help set the rules. As Bronn so helpfully noted above, the Players wanted nothing to do with testing or consequences. Much as he'd like to be, Selig is not an above-the-law king as you'd like to believe. And given the damage that the '94 strike did to baseball's popularity, I can understand the Warden's hesitance to risk another strike by testing his powers against the Players.

To be clear: I still think Selig fucked up and I dislike him.

I cannot fathom holding those who turned a blind eye more responsible than those who actually cheated.

And Bonds doesn't provoke Sports Hate. Sports Hate is what I feel for Kobe Bryant, Randy Moss and the Chicago White Sox. No, Bonds is just seems like a terrible person. I don't hate him - that's a really strong word that I don't use lightly. But I dislike him and to a much greater extent than Rodriguez or Selig.

[Lightning Lord]

Is part of that agreement to remain silent about what they know is going on? And then claiming ignorance once discovered?

I know they were in a difficult place. Leadership deals with it. Cowards and people with their heads in the sand do what they did.

You're right. I won't dispute any of this. None of it makes Bonds a better person though. It just means that other people also suck hardcore.

[Myshkin]

But who's buying it? I'm a lifelong Giants fan born and raised in the Bay Area. He's dirtier than a Jenna Jameson flick. The guy is a colossal, delusional prick, no doubt. That being said, I don't think he's as guilty as Selig or Peter Magowan are. If you're a baseball purist, I think those two (among others) are your true villians.

Yeah but Giants fans can never jut say "Okay, Bonds was juicing", they always have to add something about how everyone else in the league was also juicing. Once it become too clear to be denied Giants fans started excusing it.

I also think Selig should shoulder a large portion of the blame for the steroids era; he knew what was going on, and never did anything about it, or at least didn't try to do anything about it until the ticket buying public started making a stink. And I agree with Bronn that the MLBPA should be called out as well; I get that their job is to protect the players' interests, but that doesn't mean they should fight tooth and nail to protect their ability yo cheat.

[Lord O' Bones]

None of it makes Bonds a better person though. It just means that other people also suck hardcore.

I dearly hope you don't think I'm saying that he is. In fact, I think I said the opposite. All I'm saying is that he was clearly the most dominant player for 5 or so years and I don't think steroids affected that as much as people want to believe. Then we get into the blame game, and other purist arguments for and against, etc.

[Lord O' Bones]

Yeah but Giants fans can never jut say "Okay, Bonds was juicing", they always have to add something about how everyone else in the league was also juicing. Once it become too clear to be denied Giants fans started excusing it.

Also, Dodgers fans beat Giants fans into a coma for no reason.

What? Are we not making stupid and unfair generalizations?

[Myshkin]

Also, Dodgers fans beat Giants fans into a coma for no reason.

What? Are we not making stupid and unfair generalizations?

Hit a nerve?

[Lord O' Bones]

Hit a nerve?

I guess so. As far as I don't like stupid and unfair generalizations.

Feel free to explain why your statement wasn't one.

[Lightning Lord]

I dearly hope you don't think I'm saying that he is. In fact, I think I said the opposite. All I'm saying is that he was clearly the most dominant player for 5 or so years and I don't think steroids affected that as much as people want to believe. Then we get into the blame game, and other purist arguments for and against, etc.

Not you, no. Manhole was pretty clear that he thinks Selig is the true villain, the man wearing the Barry Bonds mask in this sorry Scooby Doo charade. I feel differently.

[Lord O' Bones]

Not you, no. Manhole was pretty clear that he thinks Selig is the true villain, the man wearing the Barry Bonds mask in this sorry Scooby Doo charade. I feel differently.

Plenty of blame to go around. It was the best of times, it was the worst of times. For baseball.

[Lightning Lord]

Best of times? I'll disagree with that, for purely personal reasons.

Obviously, the best time for baseball was 1991.

[Myshkin]

I guess so. As far as I don't like stupid and unfair generalizations.

Feel free to explain why your statement wasn't one.

Okay, in my experience* Giants fans began to excuse Bonds juicing as soon as it became too obvious to deny.

*my experience being family, friends, and friends of family living in Santa Cruz, as well as the Giants fans on this board. A fairly large number, but not large enough to be indicative of the entire Giants fanbase. An example of this excuse making is, "All I'm saying is that he was clearly the most dominant player for 5 or so years and I don't think steroids affected that as much as people want to believe".

[Lightning Lord]

Edit: Not really relevant, just feeling negative for unrelated, non-baseball reasons.

[Kosciuszko]

Atlanta lost and it looks like the Cardinals actually have a shot at winning this game.

[Bronn Stone]

Is part of that agreement to remain silent about what they know is going on? And then claiming ignorance once discovered?

I know they were in a difficult place. Leadership deals with it. Cowards and people with their heads in the sand do what they did.

The agreement, no. The law, yes. If you can't prove it, you can't say it. Especially when an employer-employee relationship relationship is in place.