[ADWD Spoilers] New info on the North's military strength

[mormont]

There is really no evidence that Bolton commanded any other forces than his own in Robert's Rebellion. Crucially, there is no evidence that Bolton ever commanded any independent force which outnumbered the regular force commanded by a Stark by at least 3 to 1. So one can't really take Bolton's role in Robert's Rebellion as evidence that Ned trusted Bolton to command men for him. In fact, we know that Ned didn't trust the man. Jon thinks as much in ADwD.

No, I'm extrapolating and I did say that there's no evidence he ever had an independent command. Still, the one thing we do know is that Roose urged Robert and Ned to execute Barristan after the Trident. For a notably cautious man to feel himself in a position to offer advice such as that, he must surely have ranked quite high in Ned's command structure.

Cat clearly guides Robb to pick Roose Bolton. She counsels:"You want cold cunning, I should think, not courage." "Roose Bolton," Robb said at once.

Who do you think Cat had in mind when she advised "cold cunning"? Who do you think did she expect Robb to pick after her description? Note that Robb picked Bolton "at once".

I think that when Cat advised that cold cunning was needed, she meant that cold cunning was needed: and that in fact, this was true. I also doubt that this was some Machiavellian manipulation of Robb's thinking processes - if Cat had meant to suggest Bolton specifically, she had no reason not to simply say 'Roose Bolton's your man'.

I'll also note that whether Jon believes Ned trusted Bolton or not, the fact was that Bolton had come when the Starks called their banners not once but three times, and the first two times had apparently served without any problems. As a person, he may not have been the man you'd have left in charge of your maiden daughter, but as a military commander, he appeared to be as proven and as loyal as anyone else Robb had. And I'll repeat the point that at that time, the command was probably meant to be more temporary and less independent than it turned out to be.

I agree that Karstark might have done the job just as well, by the way. And I agree that Roose wasn't necessarily the best or only choice. I just don't think it's as glaring a misjudgment as you suggest, at least without the benefit of hindsight.

[Black Crow]

Double post

[Markus]

Still, the one thing we do know is that Roose urged Robert and Ned to execute Barristan after the Trident. For a notably cautious man to feel himself in a position to offer advice such as that, he must surely have ranked quite high in Ned's command structure.

The Boltons are a very powerful House. So I doubt that Bolton needed to be trusted by Ned or be given any responsibility above what his station demanded to suggest killing Selmy. In any case, it seems an awfully tenuous point to base a case on for Cat having reason to trust Bolton with an independent military command.

I think that when Cat advised that cold cunning was needed, she meant that cold cunning was needed: and that in fact, this was true. I also doubt that this was some Machiavellian manipulation of Robb's thinking processes - if Cat had meant to suggest Bolton specifically, she had no reason not to simply say 'Roose Bolton's your man'.

I prefer my own reading, which doesn't require any "Machiavellian manipulation". It merely requires that Cat is cautious about how to approach the matter. Hence, I can well see why she let Robb come to his own conclusions, gently guided by her counsel of course. And when Cat recommends somebody who has "cold cunning", Roose Bolton is clearly the guy she has is mind I would say. I will note again that Robb picks him "at once". When Robb associates cold cunning primarily with Roose Bolton why should we think that Cat didn't do the same or expected Robb to pick anybody else?

I'll also note that whether Jon believes Ned trusted Bolton or not, the fact was that Bolton had come when the Starks called their banners not once but three times, and the first two times had apparently served without any problems.

Of course. Bolton has cold cunning after all. He isn't outright suicidal. He didn't want to give Ned any reason to get rid of him before he thought he could get away with it. That's plain enough. Note that Ned apparently didn't trust him despite Roose never being disloyal.

As a person, he may not have been the man you'd have left in charge of your maiden daughter, but as a military commander, he appeared to be as proven and as loyal as anyone else Robb had.

I daresay that Robb had other commanders who fought in Robert's Rebellion and Greyjoy's Rebelion too, and who weren't distrusted by Ned. Commanders who weren't as powerful as the Boltons and who weren't as big rivals for control of the North as the Boltons were in the past. Even if one were to consider the risks associated with Bolton to be small -- which Cat and Robb clearly did -- there were candidates which were less risky to entrust with most of the Starks' military power.

And I'll repeat the point that at that time, the command was probably meant to be more temporary and less independent than it turned out to be.

Robb didn't know how temporary the command would be. It might've been short or it might've been long. It was long. Which is beside the point anyway. At the least Bolton was given command for a serious battle with Tywin. A battle in which Bolton got rid of many rival lords and thousands of loyal northmen. Extending Bolton's independent command made his betrayal greater but didn't enable it in the first place.

I agree that Karstark might have done the job just as well, by the way. And I agree that Roose wasn't necessarily the best or only choice. I just don't think it's as glaring a misjudgment as you suggest, at least without the benefit of hindsight.

It was a misjudgment, clearly. And not only in hindsight, given that Robb actually had better alternatives. I don't think I was suggesting it was a "glaring misjudgment" though. It would've been glaring if Ned wouldn't just have distrusted Bolton but if Bolton had ever proven himself to be disloyal or insufficiently competent.

[Black Crow]

Obviously there are plenty of expenses involved, but it's not like a modern army, where the host has pay for every aspect of the soldier's life: salary, room, board, equipment, training, etc.

Most soldiers come with their own arms and armor, and knights bring their own horses. Either way, it's that they are not paid any kind of salary, and the bannerman are all expected to contribute to the feeding of the army.

Nah, you're missing the point. It isn't the money (although that might hurt), its the simple problem of actually getting enough food, fodder and water to the soldiers and their animals day after day after day, even before you start to consider how to replace casualties, worn out boots and equipment.

As was famously said of the wars in Spain, small armies are beaten and large ones starve. Have a look at any war in the mediaeval/early modern period and it isn't the big headline battles that bring victory, its the side with the better logistics. Just look at the 30 Years War - I'm pretty sure GRRM has.

[Black Crow]

Most of the Stark troops must have been part of Robb's big army. They will have been led by unmentioned petty lords, landholders and sergeants.

There were also some individual mentions:

Rickard Stark took 200 men-at-arms with him to King's Landing and none returned. Ned took Jory Cassel and 50 men-at-arms with him and all but Harwyn are dead. Hallis Mollen probably led quite a lot of Winterfell's remaining guardsmen south and they were destroyed at the Red Wedding but for Mollen and those he chose to bring Ned's bones home. In ACoK Ser Rodrik also raises 600 men from Winterfell and environs to attack Dagmer Cleftjaw. They were part of the force which was later routed by Ramsay.

Its certainly a puzzling question, emphasised by the absence of other Starks.

Those men who went to King's Landing will have been household troops, permanently employed as the military part of Eddard Stark's retinue.

However, we know that Winterfell is a huge castle and that alone requires a certain acreage of land to support it, which in turn requires a population to till the land, mill the grain etc etc, who can also be called upon to contribute successive levies of men as discussed above.

If the local leadership is destroyed that will obviously inhibit the raising of further levies, but most of them ought still to be there.

If we then move out beyond the immediate environs of Winterfell there should then be two other sources of troops. First and foremost should be the Stark kin; all those descendents of younger sons and their younger sons who should have been filling up the countryside over the long years the Starks ruled in the North, yet the only ones we hear of are the Starks of Karhold, ie the Karstarks. So where are they, because when it comes to "sworn bannermen" they should be first in line before the other followers?

[Markus]

If we then move out beyond the immediate environs of Winterfell there should then be two other sources of troops. First and foremost should be the Stark kin; all those descendents of younger sons and their younger sons who should have been filling up the countryside over the long years the Starks ruled in the North, yet the only ones we hear of are the Starks of Karhold, ie the Karstarks. So where are they, because when it comes to "sworn bannermen" they should be first in line before the other followers?

GRRM has addressed this to some degree here:

"There are probably some descendants of offshoot branches from the family tree floating around the north, most likely in White Harbor and Barrowton".

These offshoots seem fairly insignificant in the setting though. Their degree of kinship seems to be too distant to be closely associated with the main line and they don't seem to have any great power of their own.

[Free Northman]

It is just an oversight by Martin. Simple as that. Just as Wintertown seems far smaller than the capital of the entire North should warrant. It is the seat of Power after all, and people flock to it for justice, hearings, political deliberations, trade, administrative matters etc.

There should be a court in Winterfell, just as in King's Landing. All of this suggests a larger population than the 2000 or so people Wintertown supposedly consisted of, if I recall correctly.

In any case, on another note. A pet peeve I have is how much Martin likes to kill off Northmen. Disproportionately so, in my view.

I refer to the taking of Deepwood Motte by Stannis. The Northmen vastly outnumber the ironborn, AND they take them by surprise. Yet we are shown how the few Ironborn with Asha each build up a tally of about 6 or 7 dead Northmen before they go down. Why not the other way around? Why not 6 or 7 dead Ironborn for every dead Northman.

Fast forward to the death of Little Walder Frey, and ser Aenys or Hosteen or whoever confronting and attacking lord Manderly. All hell breaks loose after that, but once again Martin tells us that it leaves 6 of Manderly's men dead, but only two Freys. Why not 6 Freys and only 2 dead Manderlys?

I refer back to Theon's taking of Winterfell. Again, plenty of dead Northmen and hardly any dead Ironborn.

And again to the taking of Jaime Lannister at the Whispering Wood. If I recall correctly Jaime cut a swathe of dead men through the Stark ranks before he was taken.

And again when Eddard is attacked by Jaime's retinue in King's Landing. A bunch of Stark men are slain, but hardly any Lannisters.

Bottomline, it seems Martin just LOVES to kill off disproportionate numbers of Northmen. And it pisses me off, to be frank.

There is no plot reason to do so. Especially if these Northmen are supposedly so hardy and all.

I'm sure I missed a whole bunch of other such instances.

At the very least, give us one dead Southerner for every dead Northman. But at the rate Martin is going the North will be bled dry without equivalent losses to the South's forces.

What's up with that?

EDIT:

Oh yes, the other BIG example I forgot is friggin TYRION. At the battle he is involved in against the northern forces under Bolton, TYRION of all people manages to kill 2 or 3 northmen. Now I'm sorry, but if even a southern DWARF is as good as 2 or 3 hardy Northmen, then the North might as well pack their bags and go home.

I mean really, what does Martin have against the poor northerners?

[The King in the South]

I just find it odd that the least populous kingdom (Dorne) can supposedely field 50000 men, but the largest one has trouble coming up with 20000.

[Faint]

Ran has commented before that according to GRRM the North is supposed to have 45,000 to 50,000 men. Obviously, this doesn't seem to jive with the story so far but apparently the author has never contradicted himself on this point. Having said that, it's difficult to believe that when Robb marched south, he was leaving behind a force of at least 25,000 men. And even right now, neither Roose Bolton nor Stannis Baratheon are acting like there are 20,000 men to be found somewhere in the near vicinity. I don't know what to make of it all really. Perhaps all the great houses of the North really did leave half their men when they marched with Robb but there doesn't seem to be much confirmation about it, if this was the case.

[zmflavius]

It is just an oversight by Martin. Simple as that. Just as Wintertown seems far smaller than the capital of the entire North should warrant. It is the seat of Power after all, and people flock to it for justice, hearings, political deliberations, trade, administrative matters etc.

There should be a court in Winterfell, just as in King's Landing. All of this suggests a larger population than the 2000 or so people Wintertown supposedly consisted of, if I recall correctly.

In any case, on another note. A pet peeve I have is how much Martin likes to kill off Northmen. Disproportionately so, in my view.

I refer to the taking of Deepwood Motte by Stannis. The Northmen vastly outnumber the ironborn, AND they take them by surprise. Yet we are shown how the few Ironborn with Asha each build up a tally of about 6 or 7 dead Northmen before they go down. Why not the other way around? Why not 6 or 7 dead Ironborn for every dead Northman.

Fast forward to the death of Little Walder Frey, and ser Aenys or Hosteen or whoever confronting and attacking lord Manderly. All hell breaks loose after that, but once again Martin tells us that it leaves 6 of Manderly's men dead, but only two Freys. Why not 6 Freys and only 2 dead Manderlys?

I refer back to Theon's taking of Winterfell. Again, plenty of dead Northmen and hardly any dead Ironborn.

And again to the taking of Jaime Lannister at the Whispering Wood. If I recall correctly Jaime cut a swathe of dead men through the Stark ranks before he was taken.

And again when Eddard is attacked by Jaime's retinue in King's Landing. A bunch of Stark men are slain, but hardly any Lannisters.

Bottomline, it seems Martin just LOVES to kill off disproportionate numbers of Northmen. And it pisses me off, to be frank.

There is no plot reason to do so. Especially if these Northmen are supposedly so hardy and all.

I'm sure I missed a whole bunch of other such instances.

At the very least, give us one dead Southerner for every dead Northman. But at the rate Martin is going the North will be bled dry without equivalent losses to the South's forces.

What's up with that?

EDIT:

Oh yes, the other BIG example I forgot is friggin TYRION. At the battle he is involved in against the northern forces under Bolton, TYRION of all people manages to kill 2 or 3 northmen. Now I'm sorry, but if even a southern DWARF is as good as 2 or 3 hardy Northmen, then the North might as well pack their bags and go home.

I mean really, what does Martin have against the poor northerners?

The Tyrion was an asspull. Other than that, I think our view is fairly skewed.

The northmen fighting the ironborn rack up a 6-1 kill ratio because they're facing sons of lords, and not levies. Every one of the characters racking up kill ratios is a member of an ironborn house, not just some random raider. They've all had training.

In actual battle, a northman levy racks up a 1-1 kill ratio with a levy from any other house, but against a knight or lord, any levy suffers high casualties. And our POVs are mostly lords.

Hosteen Frey and Jaime Lannister are especially skewed. I think it's unreasonable to expect them to not rack up giant kill ratios when the one is supposed to be the strongest of Walder Frey's sons (who, IIRC, killed 4 of the 6 dead Manderlies), and Jaime Lannister is quite possibly the best natural swordsman in Westeros, until his de-handing.

I don't think anybody died except for that one guard on the gate during the fall of Winterfell. Certainly, as soon as he took everyone prisoner, resistance disappeared.

Eddard racks up a disproportionately large number of kills when he is attacked by Jaime. Four men, taken by surprise, but they manage to kill a dozen Lannisters,for three of their own. They aren't knights either, but guardsmen on horseback, and it's rather shocking, to be honest, that the Lannisters didn't think to start cutting the horse's legs until a dozen of them were dead.

Finally, Winterfell town is fairly small. That would be an oversight. However, I am inclined to chalk that up to the fact that castles in Westeros generally aren't beacons of population. In Martin's world, the largely agrarian society skews down the populations of cities, so castles, with their associated peasants, would have small towns, and lots of spread out peasants. Cities, in addition, seem to have developed independently of castles. As a result, it would seem that each castle and city is its own pole of power, with no special centralization at Winterfell except whenever lords renew their oaths. It is,in fact, not a stretch to say that White Harbor has more infrastructure than Winterfell since Manderly, owning a city, would have a much higher population density than any other given Northern Lord, Ned included. He probably doesn't own more people, but since they're so close together, he needs the extra infrastructure.

And, as to what Martin has against Northmen? Considering how for the first book and a half, they practically walked on water, nothing, until Robb fucked up big-time...twice.

[DurararaFTW]

The reason we don't hear about the grievances of Winterfell's personal troops during Robb's Rebellion is because all the ones Martin cared to name were taken to KL with Ned or stayed behind with Bran. He probably commanded just short of a thousand unnamed troops. Anyway, i don't think they a re portrayed as weak, but they are dying pretty disproporionately in these books. No Winterfell man, be he levy, guard, soldier, farmer or servant beyond Bran, Hodor, Harwyn and Rickon has survived past the third book. All the men that were taken south with Robb are dead, save a mere handful hostages like Greatjon. All the token garrisons that were left behind to defend the North and answered Ser Rodrics call are dead too. Hornwood, Deepwood Motte and Moat Cailin's guard garrison all got destroyed too. The Bolton and Karstark army, is about be defeated. There's still the mountain clans but those are just that, mountain clans. Just about every castle and town will be completely impoverised of men-at-arms in a much, much worse way then any other region.

Maybe GRRM is making room so the wildlings can migrate south permanently

[Zaydan]

I wonder, if they were to battle it out, who would come on top, the mountain clansmen of the North, or the mountain clansmen of the Vale?

Big Bucket Wull of the Wulls, or Shagga son of Dolf of the Stone Crows?

Morgan Liddle of the Liddles, or Timett son of TImett of the Burned Men?

One thing for sure, the northron clansmen seem to be more 'civilized' than their valley counterparts; i.e. they live off cultivating their lands, while the valley clansmen live by raiding villages and lone travelers. Therefore, the northern clansmen may look like their low-land friends and neighbors in their appearance and ways of life, it's just that they live in the mountains, while the valley clansmen look more 'barbaric', more or less the way they're portrayed on tv.

[king of the trident]

In the years leading up to Dance a lot of debate focused on the relative strengths of the Great Houses from a military perspective.

We saw Robb took 18000 men south through the Neck. Martin has said that the North's vast size makes it more difficult to gather their forces in a short space of time and from that it was inferred that the 18000 did not represent the North's full strength. However, concrete evidence of this was pretty scarce prior to Dance.

Now for the first time we have seen real proof of more men being available in the vast expanses of the North.

Has someone been able to calculate how many Northern forces are still functional in various parts of the North? I don't include Stannis's southron jackanapes, only true Northmen.

In a short visit to the northwestern hills Stannis was able to scoop up a force of upwards of 3000 hardy Northern hillsmen. He said his forces numbered upwards of 5000 and were growing every day. Of these how many were southron jackanapes? I'm thinking maybe 1500 at most. It therefore seems that the Northern hillsmen number around 4000 in Stannis's force, and we don't even know if this is all the able bodied men they have available. These are just the ones who chose to join Stannis at short notice.

Furthermore, if we assume that the North grows progressively less populated the further north you go, and taking into account the fact that these hills are located in the far north, just below the western part of the Gift, then it is logical to assume that the areas further south would have even more men available. In any case, we have about 4000 hillsmen to add to our tally.

Next, the Umbers seem to have a number of small armies in the field - I got a bit confused here. I think Crowfood had about 500 men, and wasn't there another Umber who had a force as well?

Then we have the Karstarks with maybe 500 men as well.

Next we have all the forces with Bolton - maybe 4000. But it seems these do not represent all the forces of the lords in question, but only those they chose to release to join Bolton as he marched to Winterfell.

All of these exclude the Manderleys, who seem to have plenty of men in reserve - plus enough naval forces to man upwards of 50 war galleys - at 50-100 men per galley this would seem to be anything from 2500 to 5000 naval soldiers on top of their land forces.

So far we have ignored all the forces of Howland Reed, who reduced the Ironmen to bleeding wrecks at Moat Cailin. We have no idea how many of them there are.

We also hear of more soldiers at Bear Island who refused Stannis summons, and of course the BIG unknown is the number of warriors the fierce men of Skagos can unleash should they choose to join Rickon. I'm thinking a few thousand, considering Skagos is the size of England, more or less.

In any case, we clearly haven't seen ALL the untapped resources of the North yet, but just what we've seen so far in Dance suggests that the North probably has the makings of another host of 20 000 men spread across its territory.

What I'm trying to get at is if we have a new lord of Winterfell in the next 2 books, what will be the sum total of the Northern host that he can muster under the Direwolf banner?

20000? Maybe 25000? Even 30 000?

Certainly it would seem that the North can match Stefford Lannister's feat of scraping together a second host (the one which Robb wiped out at Oxcross when he handed the Lannisters their second defeat in succession). It just takes the North longer to bring them all together.

In summary, if Robb had had a year to muster his forces, he could probably have marched through the Neck with 50000 men instead of the 18000 he left with.

Anything I missed?

Remember that the north is more populated than dorne and dorne can raise 50k men if robb had a year to muster his might it could be well over 50k. the north has 2/5 the population of the reach and the same amount as the stormlands.

[Ser Lepus]

Remember that the north is more populated than dorne and dorne can raise 50k men if robb had a year to muster his might it could be well over 50k. the north has 2/5 the population of the reach and the same amount as the stormlands.

Doran says that Dorne can´t in fact raise that many men...

[Stallion That Mounts Texas]

Doran says that Dorne can´t in fact raise that many men...

Doran says that Dorne is the least populous of the Seven Kingdom and that enemies think the Dornish armies are larger than they really are, whch could mean that that they cannot in fact raise 50,000. However, Quentyn offers Dany 50,000 spears. I would not do to lie to your future queen.

My guess is that Dorne may be able to raise that many, but it will require all of the Dornish strength. Since men and women fight in Dorne it may be possible.

[Ghost714]

I have heard some people say that GRRM has been unfair to the northern soldiers, in reference to the southern soldiers. People say that the south has more formidable soldiers than the north. I think what many people are forgetting, is the fact that the south has knights, and the north basically doesn't. In Westeros, when it comes to knights, they are for the most part a southern thing. Being a knight goes hand and hand with the worship of the Seven. The holly vow they take, the anointing with the oil's etc etc.... That's all Southern traditions that have to do with the Seven.

In AGoT when Rob first calls his banners, all the Lords are reporting at Winterfell before they march. Bran keeps asking Maester Lewin how many knights have come so far, If I remember right it's a pretty low number that Lewin tells Bran (something like 6 or 12 hundred). And there are about 12,000 Lords and there Bannermen. In Winterfell at this time. Anyway Maester Lewin says something to Bran like... How many times do I have to tell you there aren't many Knights in the North because most the north Worships the Old gods. Then he tells Bran that, it doesn't mean the Northern soldiers are any less competent or capable in comparison to the southern knights.

Remember everything above is in my own words so don't shoot me of its 100% accurate, my point is to say enough to jog everyone's memory of what I'm talking about. (I'm at work and don't have the book with me)

Anyway for the most part White Harbor is one of the only Northern regions to worship The Seven. So that's why Maderly has so many knights, But that's not what makes house Manderly one of the strongest northern houses. The reason why White Harbor is so powerful, is because it's a very rich and prosperous Harbor. They do a lot of trading and stuff wich is a great source of income. Doesn't Wyman Manderly even say something in ADwD, allong the lines of, the Lannisters may have the gold, but the Maderlys have the silver?

Thanks to ADwD we know, that White Harbor has about 10,000 knights and men at arms, plus a decent sized navy. (I for one can't wait to see the full strength of house Manderly in action)

Little side note, and this is very off topic, but it's something that has always made me curious.

I thought only knights, Lords, and Princes/Kings could participate in a tourny, that was always my understanding anyway. So how were Jorrey Cassel and other Stark house hold guards, able to take part in the lists, at the tourny of the hand thrown for Ned???

[Stallion That Mounts Texas]

I have heard some people say that GRRM has been unfair to the northern soldiers, in reference to the southern soldiers. People say that the south has more formidable soldiers than the north. I think what many people are forgetting, is the fact that the south has knights, and the north basically doesn't. In Westeros, when it comes to knights, they are for the most part a southern thing. Being a knight goes hand and hand with the worship of the Seven. The holly vow they take, the anointing with the oil's etc etc.... That's all Southern traditions that have to do with the Seven.

In AGoT when Rob first calls his banners, all the Lords are reporting at Winterfell before they march. Bran keeps asking Maester Lewin how many knights have come so far, If I remember right it's a pretty low number that Lewin tells Bran (something like 6 or 12 hundred). And there are about 12,000 Lords and there Bannermen. In Winterfell at this time. Anyway Maester Lewin says something to Bran like... How many times do I have to tell you there aren't many Knights in the North because most the north Worships the Old gods. Then he tells Bran that, it doesn't mean the Northern soldiers are any less competent or capable in comparison to the southern knights.

Remember everything above is in my own words so don't shoot me of its 100% accurate, my point is to say enough to jog everyone's memory of what I'm talking about. (I'm at work and don't have the book with me)

Anyway for the most part White Harbor is one of the only Northern regions to worship The Seven. So that's why Maderly has so many knights, But that's not what makes house Manderly one of the strongest northern houses. The reason why White Harbor is so powerful, is because it's a very rich and prosperous Harbor. They do a lot of trading and stuff wich is a great source of income. Doesn't Wyman Manderly even say something in ADwD, allong the lines of, the Lannisters may have the gold, but the Maderlys have the silver?

Thanks to ADwD we know, that White Harbor has about 10,000 knights and men at arms, plus a decent sized navy. (I for one can't wait to see the full strength of house Manderly in action)

Little side note, and this is very off topic, but it's something that has always made me curious.

I thought only knights, Lords, and Princes/Kings could participate in a tourny, that was always my understanding anyway. So how were Jorrey Cassel and other Stark house hold guards, able to take part in the lists, at the tourny of the hand thrown for Ned???

Where does it say that White Harbor has that many?

[Black Crow]

There is some very interesting information on the Northern troops in the sample chapter from WoW gifted to us by GRRM

[irishtemper]

There is some very interesting information on the Northern troops in the sample chapter from WoW gifted to us by GRRM

What is that information? I don't recall really anything about them other than Theon talking about how Umber only has green boys and the Umber in Winterfell only has the old men.

[Ghost714]

Where does it say that White Harbor has that many?

When Glover (I think that's right) gets Davos out of the wolf den, and takes him to Wyman Manderly. They are talking in private (Wyman sneaks away from the Freys at the wedding, with the pretense of him having to move his bowle's) Wyman is then telling Davos, what he can offer to Stannis and his cause, if Davos can bring him his Leige Lord (Rickon). Anyway he mentions the defenses of White Harbor, and how everyone thinks he his just a fat sot, but really he is a genius. He says something to Davos about Davos probably noticing the War Dromonds and Cog's being built, then he tells Davos there are many War ships he can't see. He basically is Playing up the fact, of how awesome he has made White Harbor, so Davos will see its worth it to do what Maderly ask's him to do. But in that conversation is when he mentions how many We'll trained knights and men at arms he has (again around 10,000). That's not even including all the men he has to run his navy that are potential soldiers.

I would get the page number if I could for you, but I'm at work without my book. I can look it up in a few hours of need be.