Cersei and Jamie are Targaryens

[Faint]

As anyone who has read my posts before would know, I am a big fan of this particular theory, so I do not say the following to quell speculation, but if someone is going to argue that Jaime and/or Cersei will be revealed as Targaryen bastards within the story, then they need to at least offer up a suggestion as to the living person or persons with this knowledge. Mind you, this is so easy thing, because whoever the candidate would have to be extremely well informed about a matter of utmost secrecy and, at the same time, at least somewhat credible.

[DarkStar24]

I honestly think this is a ridiculous proposal, and just a simple fact of people reading too much into the text while we all desperately await the next book. I think Jon is a Targ, and I think Aegon is real, but to say Jamie and Cersei are is honestly, quite crazy.

[Arolig]

As anyone who has read my posts before would know, I am a big fan of this particular theory, so I do not say the following to quell speculation, but if someone is going to argue that Jaime and/or Cersei will be revealed as Targaryen bastards within the story, then they need to at least offer up a suggestion as to the living person or persons with this knowledge. Mind you, this is so easy thing, because whoever the candidate would have to be extremely well informed about a matter of utmost secrecy and, at the same time, at least somewhat credible.

Ser Ilyn Payne knows(why else is his tounge cut out, if not to hinder him from revealing this nasty secret that Tywin and the Mad King shared?)

I'vne not finished all the current books yet. So I dunno if Ilyn is still alive.

If you look at the last Jamie chapter in aFFC and connect the dream where Jamie sees his mother to the very next chapter with Sam learning that some of the old farts in the Citadel might be watching in on ppl dreams it's pretty obvious that someone else might know about this. Maybe the "dream" Jamie had was some maesters in the Citadel trying to give Jamie the knowledge of his real parenthood trough this vison.

Remember Sam is ordered to not talk to some measters in the very next chapter. I think Sam's storyline, the riddle form Aemon and lot's is gonna be wowen into the Jamie Targaryen storyline come winds of winter. Just you wait! :D

[Littlefingers In The Air]

Any character relevant has to have a Targ connection is what I seem to find a lot on this board.

[mrunderhill]

I don't think Cersei and Jaime are Targaryens or even have a known Targaryen ancestor. I agree that Cersei and Tyrion share many similarities with Targaryens, but this is more to do with their personalities. The same Tywin is similar to the Northeners. He is compared to ice often and called bloodless just like Roose. I think it is just a way of contrasting the two personalities in the family. Cersei and Tyrion are fire, whilst Tywin is ice.

[Dolan Baratheon]

So Jamie is heir to the throne? ;)

[DavosSeaworthy]

No.

[Ser Creighton]

Phew! And here I thought they were Lannisters for a minute. Does this mean they are fire proof to?

[The Lady Lannister]

So Jamie is heir to the throne? ;)

All hail King Jaime the first of his name?

[IRON BANK]

I surely hope not if I see Jaime or Cersie riding a dragon this book goes into the fire.

[The Lady Lannister]

I surely hope not if I see Jaime or Cersie riding a dragon this book goes into the fire.

I agree. And I even like Jaime.

[RhaenysBee]

I just finished reading A Dance With Dragons and don't know if this question has been brought up before but how many people think that Cersei and Jamie are not Tywin's children but instead are Aery's? In a conversation between Danny and Sir Barristan, Barristan tells the story of Tywin's wedding night and what might have happened between Aery's and Joanna but he stops before he says too much. Other things that make me think this are how Targaryens wed brother and sister which goes along with Jamie and Cersei's relationship, how they had three children together which seems to be a reoccurring number with the Targaryens and how in the past it mentioned that Tyrion is more like his father than the twins. If this was true it could make for some interesting plot points. It would be a good reveal if Cersei or Jamie were put to death by fire and they survived because of them being a Targaryen or if Jamie came into a battle riding a dragon.

Yeah, this has actually been brought up quite a million times already :D

No, I don't see any chance of them being Targaryens. Barristan said to Daenerys that Aerys enjoyed great liberties during Joanna's bedding. That can mean lots of things, but certainly not that he actually even had sexual intercourse with her. That was Tywin. Obviously, as king (or prince, whatever he was at that time) Aerys could have liberties at the wedding, but I never got the notion that prius nocte exists in Westeros especially between a prince and an oligarch like Tywin was. So I don't see any chance thatn Tywin might have let Aerys have his way with Joanna.

Also, apart from incest and three children there's nothing that would make Jaime and Cersei Targaryens. They have Lannister gold hair, they have green eyes, their children also have Lannister gold hair and neither Jaime and Cersei, nor their children bear any of the Targaryen personality traces (greatness or madness, fury fits, etc), they are PURE Lannisters when it comes to mentality.

And number three means nothing, since Doran Martell and Steffon Baratheon both had three kids (right?) too and they weren't Targaryens. As for Tyrion being the most like Tywin of all his kids, that's just the irony of fate. He is trying to cast out Tyrion so desperately, yet he is the one you can/is step/ping into his shoes, being the most like him.

So no, I refuse to believe that any of Tywin Lannister's children are actually Aerys's. And I will be very disappointed if any of them turn out to be a Targaryen bastard, since that would ruin Tywin's character, Tywin/Joanna relationship AND the character of the one who turns out to be a bastard. This is just a fan made theory to try to find a way to get favorite characters as Jaime or Tyrion closer to riding a dragon because that's cool.

[HAL of House 9000]

I think that having Cersei and Jaime being the offspring of Aerys and Joanna (whether rape or consensual) would be a better twist for a couple of reasons. First I'll clarify that I don't think it would make them dragon riders or in a better position, but that it would add depth to the entire Lannister family dynamic.

The reason I think this is more likely is Barriston tells us about Aerys lust for Joanna in regards to the Lord's Right. If this were the case (and I don't know the timeline of marriage vs birth of C & J) then it could be assumed that he did in fact evoke the Lord's Right, and that they were the offspring of that act.

One of the best ramifications of this theory is that it means Tyrion is Tywin's only true son. It adds even more to the hatred between the two despite their similarities. It also brings Tywin's lore to a more GRRM-esque grayness - a great man who was essentially king twice, but couldn't father a healthy son. If he knows that Aerys produced a beauty like Cersei and a warrior like Jaime while all he ever had was a dwarf.

Also the idea that C&J are Targs adds a great aspect to the idea of the flipped coin mad/great. Personally I respect Jaime quite a bit, and think he is a great example of a man (with his own poor decisions in the name of love). Especially after being captured and losing a hand has changed him and made him develop new skills. Cersei is her fathers daughter (Aerys that is). She fears everyone, paranoid, mistrusting and over trusting at the same time, and an all around poor ruler.

The only person who could possibly prove this is Barriston, and he did come out and say it was true when he did talk about it. But he may have held it back, and will let Dany know when the matter is more pressing (Tyrion is now there). I just think it adds alot more to all sorts of dynamics if the twins are in fact Targs, whether its true or provable. Let me know what you think?

[Alistair's Pantaloons]

Not the worst theory I've read. Could be true. Doesn't really matter that much though.

[TaliLevi]

I personally believe this to be true. While they are quite circumstantial and open to interpretation my three main reasons are:

1. Jaime's talk with Genna Lannister, where she says "Tyrion is Tywin's son, not you. I said so once to your father's face and he would not speak to me for half a year. Men are such thundering great fools. Even the sort who come along once in a thousand years." When I read this, I thought oh my gosh, Jaime isn't Tywin's son! But on the contrary side, she still describes Tywin as '[Jaime's] father,' and it is obvious that Genna would not know if Jaime and Cersei were not Tywin's children.

2. Jaime's dream about his mother, who talks about how Tywin's dreams (of his son being a knight and his daughter being a queen) make her cry as if this is not true. But on the contrary, this can be interpreted as Twyin's dreams being destroyed by Jaime's being disgraced by all the realm who call him 'Kingslayer' and Cersei's walk of shaming destroying the perception of Cersei as a queen in the eyes of the realm.

3. My suspicion was almost made concrete when Ser Barristan talked about how Aerys II lusted for Joanna Lannister and took 'certain liberties' at the wedding. Until this point, there is completely circumstantial evidence that Cersei and Jaime are Targaryens, but this seems to be a hint. Especially since this was in addition to the fact that Aerys felt no love for his wife.

Now there is a lot of interesting parallels this would cause in the books.

• Both Tyrion and Jaime killed their fathers. And drawing on this, how interesting is it that Aerys ordered Jaime to kill his father, and in the end that is exactly what he did.
  

• The quote 'Madness and greatness were two sides of the same coin and every time a new Targaryen was born, the gods would toss the coin in the air and the world would hold its breath to see how it would land' comes to mind. Cersei being madness and Jaime being greatness.
  

• It is a common theme throughout the book for people to misinterpret prophecies. Cersei's obsession with Tyrion being the valonquar makes me believe that it will in fact be Jaime who strangles her to death, especially since he is her only true brother whereas Tyrion is her half-brother. Especially since we explicitly know (to Cersei's anger) that she was born before Jaime, making Jaime her 'little brother.'
  

• Could Jaime be one of the heads of the dragons? While we know it is not a pre-requisite to be a Targaryen to be a head, I believe Quaithe's warning 'kraken and dark flame, lion and griffin, the sun's son and the mummer's dragon. Trust none of them' makes Victarion, Morqorro, Tyrion, Jon Connington, Quentyn and Aemon no longer candidates. Whereas 'A white lion ran through grass taller than a man.' (Daenerys' vision) suggests Jaime Lannister may have a part to play in Daenerys' future, being a White Sword and a Lion. Especially since we now know he is headed to Lady Stoneheart with Brienne, which will be Jaime's first witnessing of the power of R'hllor. Jaime also dreams about wielding a burning sword... but that's a whole other story.
  

[ambi76]

Like I said before (on this thread even?) I also love this idea of the wonder twins being Aerys's bastards. Much more so than the theory of Tyrion being Aerys's bastard.

But even more hillarious if all three are Aerys's bastards because then Joanna gave Tywin three cuckoo-kids just like Cersei gave Robert three cuckoo-kids.

And Tywin's oh so precious Lannister legacy did never exist in the first place.

But yeah, who cares and who knows is a problem. My fanwank: Bran will see it on the weirwood history channels.

[King Tam Stark]

I think the twins are targs but one thing I can't work out is the reason for Joanna to marry them to aerys children? I know she was friends with his wife but if she suspected her twins where targs and she is definitely a lannister why would she do that? I await further enlightenment so I can yet again bow to your superior knowledge :laugh:

[King Tam Stark]

Ser Ilyn Payne knows(why else is his tounge cut out, if not to hinder him from revealing this nasty secret that Tywin and the Mad King shared?)

I'vne not finished all the current books yet. So I dunno if Ilyn is still alive.

If you look at the last Jamie chapter in aFFC and connect the dream where Jamie sees his mother to the very next chapter with Sam learning that some of the old farts in the Citadel might be watching in on ppl dreams it's pretty obvious that someone else might know about this. Maybe the "dream" Jamie had was some maesters in the Citadel trying to give Jamie the knowledge of his real parenthood trough this vison.

Remember Sam is ordered to not talk to some measters in the very next chapter. I think Sam's storyline, the riddle form Aemon and lot's is gonna be wowen into the Jamie Targaryen storyline come winds of winter. Just you wait! :D

interesting I missed that ty

[The Dornishman's Wife]

And number three means nothing, since Doran Martell and Steffon Baratheon both had three kids (right?) too and they weren't Targaryens.

Well, it does strike me though that both of these examples are actually part Targs... dum dum DUM

(But yes, of course you're still right and parents don't need Targ blood to have three children. The Tully siblings are an instance of main chars.)

[Lord Freypie]

I'd find strange if Cersei and Jaime are the only Targaryan bastards while Tyrion shows far more links with dragons and Targaryan features.

On the other hand it's true that Jaime's dream of his mother may well mean Tywin was not the twins father.

I'm starting to warm to the theory of Tywin being sterile, and all his childs being Aerys, with him only suspecting Tyrion as the others were too beautiful.

It would be a supreme irony that the character the most obsessed with his family image spent his life fighting for bastards, especially if they are revealed at some point and Tywin become the new word for cuckold.

Now out of that, I don't see how any of them being a Targ bastard would serve the story more than them being Lannisters with some Targ tendancies, but it may be interesting.