[TWoW Spoilers] Theon I, Part 3

[Prince of the North]

I don't know. The text reads:

Victarion's hand is burnt, but he seemed pretty alive to me. I think his men would have reacted more strongly to a corpse. Also as another poster said, I can't see him "smiling sadly."

If that fits anyone in the Greyjoy family, it was Theon. In fact, smiling is what he was known for.

I wouldn't be surprised if it was someone else entirely though.

Great chapter! It gives much food for thought :thumbsup:

As to Dany's vision in the House of the Undying, I'm certainly open to other interpretations but I've always thought the part about "A corpse stood at the prow of a ship, eyes bright on his dead face, gray lips smiling sadly" referred to Maester Aemon Targaryen. I think the "bright eyes" symbolize the fact that even though he was physically blind he'd finally "seen" the truth or figured some things out concerning Dany, the prophecy, dragons, etc. I think the corpse "smiles sadly" because, of course, it was ultimately too late and futile. He would tragically never reach Dany to guide her or even be able to really share what he'd learned with her.

[King Rickon and his Dawg]

Does anybody else think it's very suspicious that Bran doesn't have any more chapters in Dance after what, 300-400 pages, yet we have now seen two hints by my count that Bran is communicating with Theon. I think either this is future Bran talking to Theon, or, more likely, Bran will play an integral role in this early part of TWoW and GRRM doesn't want us to know what it is yet. Thus, no Bran chapters.

[Azor Stark]

I am convinced the letter was written by Mance "abel"... he referred to Jon as Bastard continuously in their last meeting before he was sent to winterfell... I doubt Ramsay could get all that information from mance even if caught, how did he know it was mance and not abel? how did he know about the spearwives? how does he know Stannis' family so well? the babe, val etc... too much information for Ramsay to know or for Ramsay to even try to get...

[Chise]

I am convinced the letter was written by Mance "abel"...

Obvious question - how would Mance get raven access, and what exactly does he gain from pissing Jon off and sending him to his death? Because a pissed-off 17-year-old in a blind rage racing to Winterfell will clearly end in his [Jon's] death

Also, why would Mance write of "Reek"? That name means nothing to anyone aside from Boltons and possibly Ramsay's buddies

[kephv]

How would Mance write anything? He probably doesn't even know how to read.

[salt]

Does anybody else think it's very suspicious that Bran doesn't have any more chapters in Dance after what, 300-400 pages, yet we have now seen two hints by my count that Bran is communicating with Theon. I think either this is future Bran talking to Theon, or, more likely, Bran will play an integral role in this early part of TWoW and GRRM doesn't want us to know what it is yet. Thus, no Bran chapters.

Yeah, its pretty strange. I felt ike Dance was missing one last Bran chapter.

[irishtemper]

You know I was just thinking what Mance could possibly want by bringing Jon down to Winterfell, and I thought about the fact that he realized Jon would have to somewhat break his vows and more than likely bring wildlings with him. So he planned on running into them and usurping command of a group of wildlings already south of the wall ready to rape/pillage some more

[Lord Godric]

Does anybody else think it's very suspicious that Bran doesn't have any more chapters in Dance after what, 300-400 pages, yet we have now seen two hints by my count that Bran is communicating with Theon. I think either this is future Bran talking to Theon, or, more likely, Bran will play an integral role in this early part of TWoW and GRRM doesn't want us to know what it is yet. Thus, no Bran chapters.

Honestly, when I first read the scene (in ADwD when Bran mutters Theon) I thought it was just Bran seeing, through the tree, Theon and reacting by saying his name, and that was what Theon heard and reacted to. There was a similar moment when Bran was looking through the tree and saw his father and reacted by saying "Winterfell," which Ned heard and asked "Who's there?" But after reading TWoW sample chapter it definitely seems like Bran (either future Bran or current Bran) has a plan for Theon that the reader just is not clued into yet.

[Lord of Autumn's End]

And it seems that the Freys and the rest should be now just behind Theon and the banker.

By the way, how did Tycho find the way to Stannis' camp?

Maybe because Jon told him where it would be? He didn't just sit in on Stannis' strategy sessions, he actively participated in the planning. Also considering it's an army I think it would be fairly hard to miss.

The Letter:

This seems to be getting the most attention. IMO, there is not enough information in this chapter to confirm Stannis sent it. He cannot know about Mance and the Spearwives just yet. He doesn't know about the Rattleshirt switch. Although, we cannot rule Stannis out. There are several scenarios that could cause him to be the author.

Ramsay seems to be the other favorite. Similar problems, we don't know how/if he finds out about Mance and the Spearwives or any other information in the letter. Though there is some good evidence that supports the assertion that Ramsay sent it.

IMO, the best option for the author of the letter is Mel. I think she sent it to Jon Snow in order to manipulate him. I fall into the camp that thinks there was some magic going on during Jon's stabbing and that Mel was behind it. She needs him alive but out of the picture for some reason.

The final option is Mance himself. He is a tricky one that Mance. I could see him having some master plan to put himself in control of the North after (if) the Wall falls. But that's probably a little crack pot.

I think its absolutely ridiculous that anyone thinks that the letter wasn't written by Ramsay. What possible reason could Stannis have for sending Jon that letter? None! He has no reason to and every reason not to.

Ditto for Mel. Her POV chapters indicate that she still thinks Stannis is AA and she therefore has very vested reasons to keep Jon and everyone present at the Wall under control. Spreading rumours that their king has been killed destabilises his faction and creates pandemonium. She would have had no way of knowing the specifics of what Jon would do in response to the letter. He might have tried to gather an army and move south as he actually did, started preparing defenses at the Wall for an attack or jumped ship over to the Boltons.

It wasn't Mance.

It. Just. Wasn't. Mance. There's no plan, no matter how convoluted, that he could pull off that would make him the power in the North. No nobleman would ever swear to him. He has no reason to betray Jon, who is the best lord he and his people could hope for south of the Wall.

I dont think the Umbers are dead yet. If you dig traps like that it is to slow you enemy down where they won't chase after you. I think Mors would be doing alot of hit and run tactics. Also I have a filling that there is more reason to the greybeards being inside and the green boys on the outside.? Maybe the older ones are set to sacfice themselfs in some way? To keep the future of the Umber people alive? I am not sure, but I think there is more to it than what me know.

You can't just perform 'hit and run tactics' with a medieval army, unless you have a very large number of archers that you are prepared to lose (which no one ever did - they were a precious commodity) and you are confident that you have an accurate picture of the battlefield and the locations of enemy forces. Additionally, archers aren't going to be of much use during a blizzard, where their bowstrings would be ruined in minutes, and their accuracy would be almost useless except at very short and very dangerous ranges.

Also what 'traps' do you recommend they set? People didn't have land-mines in the middle ages.

Well, need to defend Marsh a bit here. Jon Snow never thinks of explaining why he does what he does. Or he doesn't do it sufficiently. I don't think Marsh is intimated by the Lannisters, as - if the wiki is right - house Marsh lies in the North. So why would he? He's the first Steward on the wall, so he has been in the "elite" of the Night's Watch for quite some time. He's not a nobody!

No we don't. Jon did explain himself, on at least one notable occasion.

“Thousands of enemies. Thousands of wildlings.”

Thousands of people, Jon thought. Men, women, children. Anger rose inside him, but when he spoke his voice was quiet and cold. “Are you so blind, or is it that you do not wish to see? What do you think will happen when all these enemies are dead?”

Above the door the raven muttered, “Dead, dead, dead.”

“Let me tell you what will happen,” Jon said. “The dead will rise again, in their hundreds and their thousands. They will rise as wights, with black hands and pale blue eyes, and they will come for us.” He pushed himself to his feet, the fingers of his sword hand opening and closing. “You have my leave to go.”

Jon has explained his reasoning to them in the past, and he would have done so again if they'd stopped to talk with him before busting out the knives. Its stupidity and close-mindedness, plain and simple. You can understand why they would do so, but not justify it. And whether or not he's considered part of the elite or a nobody is meaningless; Jon is the Lord Commander, he outranks him either way.

Does anybody else think it's very suspicious that Bran doesn't have any more chapters in Dance after what, 300-400 pages, yet we have now seen two hints by my count that Bran is communicating with Theon.

Disappointing, yes. Very suspicious, of course not.

[kissdbyfire]

Honestly, when I first read the scene (in ADwD when Bran mutters Theon) I thought it was just Bran seeing, through the tree, Theon and reacting by saying his name, and that was what Theon heard and reacted to.

It's interesting that Theon hears Bran through the weirwood in 'The Prince of Winterfell':

"It had been a lifetime since any god had heard him. He did not know who he was, or what he was, why he was still alive, why he had ever been born.

“Theon,” a voice seemed to whisper.

His head snapped up. “Who said that?” All he could see were the trees and the fog that covered them. The voice had been as faint as rustling leaves, as cold as hate. A god’s voice, or a ghost’s. How many died the day that he took Winterfell? How many more the day he lost it?

The day that Theon Greyjoy died, to be reborn as Reek. Reek, Reek, it rhymes with shriek."

His chapters after that are 'The Turncloak', 'A Ghost in Winterfell', and finally 'Theon'. In 'The Prince' he's not only playing the part the Boltons' have told him to play; I think the chapter title has to do with who we wished he'd become. Then, 'The Turncloak' is who actually became; not a prince, but rather a 'turncloak', despided by all, including Bolton's and Frey's men-at-arms; 'The Ghost' is where/who/what he is at that moment. And afterwards, his chapter is 'Theon' again. Almost as if Bran calling him by his true name back in 'The Prince' has helped him reconnect with his true identity somehow...

[bemused]

Peasant Rebel Leader.. Whatever great house Marsh's house owes fealty to , he was in the Slynt camp from the get-go. When he gets back to castle Black after his very costly misadventure , he swallows all Slynt and Thorne's venom about Jon.

He withdraws his name from the choosing ( probably realizing that after leaving CB without clear leadership and seriously undermanned , while he chased Mance's feints , his chances for election might be pretty dim ) and publicly tries to throw his supporters to Slynt.

I know when he's with Stannis ,he cites Slynt's command of the Gold Cloaks as a recommendation , but in private , when he and Thorne are trying to sway Yarwick, they're both citing the fact that Slynt has a friend in Tywin, and Tywin was bound to win in the end. No mention of Gold Cloaks... So where's Marsh's vaunted neutrality ?

Having made such dreadful decisions as acting commander, I think he's may be all the more easily influenced because Jon and Donal Noye saved the sorry situation he left at Castle Black ( making him look all the worse ), and there may be some resentment lurking in his breast.

[Lord of Autumn's End]

Peasant Rebel Leader.. Whatever great house Marsh's house owes fealty to , he was in the Slynt camp from the get-go. When he gets back to castle Black after his very costly misadventure , he swallows all Slynt and Thorne's venom about Jon. He withdraws his name from the choosing ( probably realizing that after leaving CB without clear leadership and seriously undermanned , while he chases Mance's feints , his chances for election might be pretty dim ) and publicly tries to throw his supporters to Slynt.

I know when he's with Stannis ,he cites Slynt's command of the Gold Cloaks as a recommendation , but in private , when he and Thorne are trying to sway Yarwick, they're both citing the fact that Slynt has a friend in Tywin, and Tywin was bound to win in the end.. So where's Marsh's vaunted neutrality ?

Having made such dreadful decisions as acting commander, I think he's maybe all the more easily influenced because Jon and Donal Noye saved the situation at Castle Black ( making him look all the worse ), and there may be some resentment lurking in his breast.

Possible, but the fact that he had tears in his eyes when he stabs Jon kinda suggests a lack of resentment.

[Free Northman]

I think it is an easy misconception to think that the Theon sample chapter necessarily precedes some crucial Asha or Bran chapters in WoW.

It may well be that Asha's strange behavior will be explained by a POV chapter of hers that occurs PRIOR to the Theon chapter. Similarly, we may well get a Bran chapter before the Theon chapter as well, giving us more insight into the thinking behind the proposed weirwood tree execution.

We just got the Theon chapter out of context, but it may make far more sense once we have read some build up chapters in Winds to explain Asha's sudden wierwood fascination, and Bran's sudden warging of the ravens around Theon and Stannis.

[slayer420]

I think Bran has proably learned alot since his last chapter. I bet his powers have increased alot too. No telling what he can do now. I think it had been at least 4 or 5 months right? I am not sure on this. We see the same thing with Mel. I notice alot of people dont relize that she had 6 to 7 months to look in her Fires. I bet she knows alot more than people give her credit for. My time line might not be right, but they still know alot more than there last Pov chapters.

[Tini]

Possible, but the fact that he had tears in his eyes when he stabs Jon kinda suggests a lack of resentment.

Why? Those might be tears of frustration and anger, not of sadness. He might kill Jon for the Watch, and resent Jon for forcing hom into that action.

Maybe Bowen Marsh is not as dumb/incompetent as I always thought him.

Bowen Marsh is partial to the Night's Watch. This prevents true neutrality. Like Jon, Bowen Marsh is trying to protect the Night's Watch. He supported Slynt knowing of Slynt's association with Tywin Lannister - Tywin who was likely to come out of the current war victorious. That doesn't necessarily make Bowen Marsh a Lannister supporter. Jon and Maester Aemon constructed a paper shield to keep the Watch safe after accepting help from Stannis Baratheon. Bowen Marsh didn't try to use a paper shield, he tried to shield the Watch by supporting Slynt. Slynt as Lord Commander might have proved a better shield than Aemon's letter.

True, Slynt would have killed Jon. But choosing a Lannister man as LC might have shown Tywin Lannister that the Night's Watch was not supporting Stannis Baratheon's bid for the throne, despite the fact that they were currently hosting what was left of Stannis' forces. If you cannot achieve true neutrality by staying out of Westerosi affairs completely (which is impossible), it can still be achieved by treating equally with all sides in the conflict. The Watch was indebted to Stannis for saving them from the Wildlings. Bowen Marsh tried to balance the scales by making Slynt the next LC. He failed, and Jon was chosen instead.

In a way, Jon was the worst choice for Lord Commander the Watch could have made: He's a Stark in all but name, a member of a family violently opposed to Lannister rule. Jon kept supporting Stannis Baratheon who was and is contesting Joffrey and Tommen's right to the Iron Throne, even helped him built an army of wildlings, offered hospitality to Stannis' family. For the Lannisters, he was totally unacceptable in his new position, making a conflict with the Iron Throne was inevitable. And the Lannisters had the power to cut off recruiting, starving out the weakened Watch further. If anybody else had been chosen LC, Tywin and Cersei might have left the Night's Watch to its own devices, on its way to obscurity. Even if the Watch had continued to offer hospitality to Stannis Baratheon.

If Bowen Marsh was aware of this, I can see why he would get involved in the assassination attempt. Jon was making a creditable attempt at getting their defenses ready against the White Walkers. But it was also clear that he would not treat with the Lannisters, and their appointed Warden of North. He was taking sides. I blamed Marsh for dividing the Watch when they needed to stand together against the Others. From Marsh's perspective, Jon was dividing Westeros in friend and foe at a time when Westeros needed to stand together against the Others.

[vanloan79]

Dany's vision about the corpse sailing a ship with bright blue eyes. I'm wondering if that could be one of the ships Jon sent for the wildlings and instead of wildlings it'll return with the corpses resurrected by the others.

[FanTasy]

His chapters after that are 'The Turncloak', 'A Ghost in Winterfell', and finally 'Theon'. In 'The Prince' he's not only playing the part the Boltons' have told him to play; I think the chapter title has to do with who we wished he'd become. Then, 'The Turncloak' is who actually became; not a prince, but rather a 'turncloak', despided by all, including Bolton's and Frey's men-at-arms; 'The Ghost' is where/who/what he is at that moment. And afterwards, his chapter is 'Theon' again. Almost as if Bran calling him by his true name back in 'The Prince' has helped him reconnect with his true identity somehow...

Nice thinkinfg, I wondered about the chapter titles too. 'A Ghost in Winterfell' I always thought refers to when Theon thinks he sees that the face in the weirwood is Bran's face. Theon then thinks: "Bran's ghost".

[Peasant Rebel Leader]

@Lord of Autumn's End If you read your excerpt again, you see that Jon's tone is harsh, arrogant and short. After a few sentences, he waves him away. "You have my leave to go". That's not what the youngest LC should tell an established part of the leadership of the NW. He should mainly listen and address the problem Marsh has, that the Wildlings may overwhelm the NW. That's btw. Jon's biggest problem as a leader. He doesn't explain his actions, he keeps them for himself (that and sending his friends away), and he doens't listen. So I don't think he should have to justify his actions again to Bowen Marsh, but he needs to listen to him and he absolutely needs the backing of the majority of the elite present in Castle Black: He has Melisandre, the wildling leader(s), but he lacks "friends" in the Night's Watch.

A good commander doesn't rely on the authority his title brings him. That helps you when you get first introduced. Afterwards, it needs to be earned. That's why Ned Stark does the executions himself and that's why Edmure tries to light his fathers funeral pyre on fire himself. In the end, Mutiny is legitimate on ships if the Captain's Command endangers the ships or he himself has gone crazy*. And nothing else is Bowen Marsh trying to do, as he does not understand Jon's actions. (Of course there could have been less drastic ways, but that's the Medieval World for you)

As for the explanation of Jon, I'm talking from my memory here, but there was never a big "speech" to the Night Watch before letting the wildlings in like he had one in the last chapter in the shield hall with the wildlings, right? So I think there's a growing resentment as Jon is becoming more wildling and they seem his real power base, not the Night's Watch as it should be. He should have talked to them...

*I take that example as I just last night watched a 50ies movie when I couldn't sleep: The Caine Mutiny. look it up ;-)

[Lord of Autumn's End]

Why? Those might be tears of frustration and anger, not of sadness. He might kill Jon for the Watch, and resent Jon for forcing hom into that action.

I said "suggests". Its not ironclad, but I sort of took it for granted that it was due to remorse. I certainly can't find any actual evidence prior to the stabbing that Bowen Marsh genuinely resented Jon. Disagreed with him, sure, but that was to be expected.

In a way, Jon was the worst choice for Lord Commander the Watch could have made: He's a Stark in all but name, a member of a family violently opposed to Lannister rule. Jon kept supporting Stannis Baratheon who was and is contesting Joffrey and Tommen's right to the Iron Throne, even helped him built an army of wildlings, offered hospitality to Stannis' family. For the Lannisters, he was totally unacceptable in his new position, making a conflict with the Iron Throne was inevitable. And the Lannisters had the power to cut off recruiting, starving out the weakened Watch further. If anybody else had been chosen LC, Tywin and Cersei might have left the Night's Watch to its own devices, on its way to obscurity. Even if the Watch had continued to offer hospitality to Stannis Baratheon.

That's just ludicrous. Jon was the only person in the Watch who had the intelligence to treat the Others as the real threat, the nobleman's education, the ability to lead men in battle and the knowledge and desire to save/recruit the wildlings and therefore save himself the hassle of having their cold dead corpses swarming over the Watch when the Wall inevitably comes down. Jon had no desire to continue the war with the Lannisters - he wasn't violently opposed to their rule at all. The Lannisters might have left the Wall alone if another LC had been chosen, but that wouldn't have done the Watch any good when they're up to their necks in Wights and Others. This is the beginning of the Long Night - keeping the unreasonable tyrants happy is a distant second to being able to marshal a decent defence of the Realm.

If Bowen Marsh was aware of this, I can see why he would get involved in the assassination attempt. Jon was making a creditable attempt at getting their defenses ready against the White Walkers. But it was also clear that he would not treat with the Lannisters, and their appointed Warden of North. He was taking sides. I blamed Marsh for dividing the Watch when they needed to stand together against the Others. From Marsh's perspective, Jon was dividing Westeros in friend and foe at a time when Westeros needed to stand together against the Others.

You have an extremely unreasonable view of Jon's actions, methinks. He was prepared to treat with the Lannisters in so far as reality would allow him, considering Stannis was present at the Wall and outnumbered him. It was Tywin and Cersei to decided to mess around with the Watch; putting one of the most incompetent men in the kingdom in charge of their ranks and later, when that didn't work, trying to organise his assassination.

@Lord of Autumn's End If you read your excerpt again, you see that Jon's tone is harsh, arrogant and short. After a few sentences, he waves him away. "You have my leave to go". That's not what the youngest LC should tell an established part of the leadership of the NW. He should mainly listen and address the problem Marsh has, that the Wildlings may overwhelm the NW. That's btw. Jon's biggest problem as a leader. He doesn't explain his actions, he keeps them for himself (that and sending his friends away), and he doens't listen. So I don't think he should have to justify his actions again to Bowen Marsh, but he needs to listen to him and he absolutely needs the backing of the majority of the elite present in Castle Black: He has Melisandre, the wildling leader(s), but he lacks "friends" in the Night's Watch.

If you'll read the rest of the scene, you'll notice that Jon's tone started out conciliatory, but deteriorated when it became obvious that none of them were willing to consider that his actions might be the best option they had available. And yes, he's a little curt when he dismisses them, which is because he's frustrated. Fair enough, I would think. Jon tried to explain his more radical actions, but they just weren't prepared to listen. Your thoughts on what he should have done appear flawed, too. He did listen to his men, but he couldn't get their backing if he chose to follow through with what he saw were the best solutions to his problems. He was faced with a choice between getting the Watch ready for the Long Night or gaining the approval of his men. The former is obviously the better choice, the latter is lunacy. He could have made a few minor compromises, such as not making Satin his steward, but I don't think that would have helped any.

A good commander doesn't rely on the authority his title brings him. That helps you when you get first introduced. Afterwards, it needs to be earned. That's why Ned Stark does the executions himself and that's why Edmure tries to light his fathers funeral pyre on fire himself. In the end, Mutiny is legitimate on ships if the Captain's Command endangers the ships or he himself has gone crazy*. And nothing else is Bowen Marsh trying to do, as he does not understand Jon's actions. (Of course there could have been less drastic ways, but that's the Medieval World for you)

No offence, but the whole 'don't rely on the authority of your rank' thing is naive in the extreme. A leader should always make every attempt to gain the personal respect oh his or her subordinates, but sometimes it doesn't work out. That doesn't necessarily mean they are a bad leader. Their people may be acting unreasonably and be unwilling to give them the chance unless they conform to their own expectations (as in Jon's case), the person may be only placed in their position an extremely short time before some crisis they have to deal with occurs, etc. A leader shouldn't rely solely on the rank of their office, but sometimes that's all you've got in your corner and you've got to deal with the situation anyway. Legal authority is derived from a person's position and not their personal charisma for a reason.

As for the explanation of Jon, I'm talking from my memory here, but there was never a big "speech" to the Night Watch before letting the wildlings in like he had one in the last chapter in the shield hall with the wildlings, right? So I think there's a growing resentment as Jon is becoming more wildling and they seem his real power base, not the Night's Watch as it should be. He should have talked to them...

He didn't talk to them because he didn't intend to bring any of them with him as he was trying to dissociate them from his actions, so that only he would take the blame if he failed. He still talked to them about almost every previous decision he made, at some point or another, and they consistently refused to see his point of view. How many times does a man have to argue with a brick wall before he's entitled to say 'screw it'?

Jon made his share of errors; its not as if having Satin as his steward was very important, he should have gone to Melisandre privately with Ramsay's letter before spontaneously announcing his intention to march south and he should have have kept a damn tail of guards after the sorceress straight up warned him that people were going to try to kill him, but I think his decision process regarding how best to defend the Wall was spot on, at every turn.

[Razha]

I think it is an easy misconception to think that the Theon sample chapter necessarily precedes some crucial Asha or Bran chapters in WoW. It may well be that Asha's strange behavior will be explained by a POV chapter of hers that occurs PRIOR to the Theon chapter. Similarly, we may well get a Bran chapter before the Theon chapter as well, giving us more insight into the thinking behind the proposed weirwood tree execution. We just got the Theon chapter out of context, but it may make far more sense once we have read some build up chapters in Winds to explain Asha's sudden wierwood fascination, and Bran's sudden warging of the ravens around Theon and Stannis.

That's actually a very valid point -

And even if there won't be any such explanatory chapter before this one - it could be given afterwards (this would leave Asha's intentions unclear untill they get to that tree, but later Asha, for instance, can explain what happened before, or we might have a chapter of Bran a few months later - trying to influence the events few months before)