Grimm (now merged with other Grimm thread)

[LugaJetboyGirl]

I feel like this show is setting women back another 50 years. Spoilers below.

I really want to like it. It has so much Buffy-esque potential. But each week goes by with almost no character development, no exploration of the mythos, weak dialogue, and no worthwhile female characters.

In almost all circumstances the women in the show are victims. (Edit: I mean that the women have not had a whole lot to do outside of being victims.)

1) a girl-friend gets the shit beat out of her and once free from her abuser,she is kidnapped and manhandled by mouse-dude

2) litte red-shirted girl gets kidnapped and imprisoned in basement, after we get to see other dead women mauled in the woods

3) a bunch of women are killed, others are repeatedly raped and imprisoned in cages

4) airbrained goldilocks and her boyfriend are hunted in the woods in a primitive ritual

5) young girl is almost molested, but because she is a monster she gets away and lives in the woods, scared and hiding from humankind (nb. it would have been cool if they then built up the mentor relationship between her and Monroe, but I guess that's too much to ask)

6) several women are murdered by bee flash-mobs, horribly disfigured

Then there are these female characters:

1) Juliette the simpering girlfriend of Nick, who he always tells 'stay inside.' She's a vet, she takes care of puppies, isn't that cute?

2) Stick-thin Hexenbiest blondie, with the super high heels, who was also almost killed by the bee mob. Is subservient to Police Chief and is only on screen for a few minutes

3) Queen Bee - a powerful woman in charge of a lot of people, with a strong personality! Except she's only on screen for a few minutes, and then she is shot to death

4) Aunt Grimm, a bad-ass warrior! Except she's only on screen for a few minutes, when she's on screen she's an invalid, and then she dies.

5) Blutbod chick. The wild woman in leather who rides a motorcycle. Rawr. Okay, she murders a few people and even gets a back story. But because she doesn't play by the rules, she's a bad influence. So, at the end of the episode she rides away, never to return.

I think that about covers it.

[Tears of Lys]

Gee, I'm sorry I've missed it. :P

Although, I am somehow intrigued by the bee plot line. Tell me more.

[Gertrude]

I had hopes for this series, but it took all of about 3 episodes to completely lose my interest. The only time I watch it is when I am too lazy to look for something else after Chuck, which, sadly, is also losing my interest.

[Jaimeisnotazombie]

we dont even have a good back story on Nick the main character. Unless ther is a female grimm floating around out there dont expect a "strong female" character.

the two most important characters are Nick and his partner, maybe later his GF will play a role.

But the show is interesting and for being on NBC and being a fantasy type show, its as good as its going to get.

The hexen chick's weight is irrelevent, and should be discarded as part of your arguement.

The bludbod chick is badass, and if u think you have seen the last of her, i think you are mistaken, she can clearly came back once or twice a season.

His aunt was OG, she died to try and force a kind of sympathetic view of the main character, he lost his last real family member so sad, right? pfft

They clearly, yet slowly are building up his GF to learn his secret, (cliche) but she will probably play a bigger role when she does find out.

6 season and a movie.

[Centrist Simon Steele]

I was looking for something to fill in the void Supernatural left in me (and I watched all of Angel over the summer, which was amazing), and this show debuted right around Halloween. It looked perfect.

Three shows was all it took--it's pretty boring. It's just missing a kind of energy that early Supernatural had, and the Grimm guy is just not as interesting a character as the Winchesters or Angel or hell, even Buffy.

[LugaJetboyGirl]

Three shows was all it took--it's pretty boring. It's just missing a kind of energy that early Supernatural had, and the Grimm guy is just not as interesting a character as the Winchesters or Angel or hell, even Buffy.

Agreed. The guy has no personality whatsoever. The only character I genuinely like is Monroe.

[Minaku]

It's gotten a lot better, IMO, and I look forward to watching this every week. The last two episodes have been particularly good.

Juliette's quick thinking saved Nick in Game Ogre. Aunt Marie may not be what she seems. And I don't think the complaint of "All victims are women!" is valid. Women are often victims because they're perceived to be weaker. Women are much more likely to be targets of violence than men.

So far, the victims have been:

- Ep. 1, a college female jogger and a little girl

- Ep. 2, a heterosexual couple, with the male half being abused much more than the female

- Ep. 3, various women on buses; the episode centered around the Mellifers, bee-people, and the vast majority of bees in a hive are female.

- Ep. 4, no one dies, but the seduction victims are all women (but the antagonist's power was shown to have an influence on men)

- Ep. 5, a middle-aged male string teacher

- Ep. 6, two men

- Ep. 7, a man in his 30s and a young feral girl (other victims were a heterosexual couple on a hike; woman escaped, while the man was kidnapped and spent the entire episode being beaten, and the episode does not show him being rescued)

- Ep. 8, three men, including the main character, and a woman

- Ep. 9, three men

Looks about even to me. The bitching about "in almost all circumstances" is stupid.

It seems like I'm the only one who likes this show, and it was about to lose me after the third episode but thankfully it got better.

As for Nick, he's supposed to be an "everyman". He's just a dude, no superpowers, just a strange history. When he gets beaten, he stays down. I like that about the show. I like that after he got his ass handed to him by the ogre that he didn't leap out of his hospital bed and save the day.

[lady narcissa]

I still find myself enjoying the show, much more so than the other fairy tale tv show that started around the same time. I like the setting and location shots and how the fairy tales and characters are not so literal. (I loved that bit in the first episode with the girl in the red hoodie jogging through the forest listening to Sweet Dreams on her ipod.)

After these last two episodes I was wondering if the girlfriend's role was being stepped up a notch what with her saving Nick and then her going off and investigating the women who was spying on their house.

[wolverine]

I was looking for something to fill in the void Supernatural left in me (and I watched all of Angel over the summer, which was amazing), and this show debuted right around Halloween. It looked perfect.

Three shows was all it took--it's pretty boring. It's just missing a kind of energy that early Supernatural had, and the Grimm guy is just not as interesting a character as the Winchesters or Angel or hell, even Buffy.

So I can tell one of my old college roommates to stop picking on me for watching all the seasons of Angel when I got back from class each morning until I was caught up and then watched them at night?

[Underfoot]

I still find myself enjoying the show, much more so than the other fairy tale tv show that started around the same time. I like the setting and location shots and how the fairy tales and characters are not so literal. (I loved that bit in the first episode with the girl in the red hoodie jogging through the forest listening to Sweet Dreams on her ipod.)

I actually much prefer Once Upon a Time, though to be fair, I only half watched the first episode of Grimm. Just by comparing pilots, though, I felt that OUaT had much more depth, better characterizations, and more potential to become a well-rounded drama.

It also has very strong female leads. Three of them.

[Minaku]

I thought Once Upon a Time was better initially, but with the exception of the hunter episode, it's gone downhill for me. I don't like the scenery-chewing the Queen does.

[lady narcissa]

I actually much prefer Once Upon a Time, though to be fair, I only half watched the first episode of Grimm. Just by comparing pilots, though, I felt that OUaT had much more depth, better characterizations, and more potential to become a well-rounded drama.

It also has very strong female leads. Three of them.

It it true it has a number of female leads. Something was bothering me about the show, however, and I couldn't quite place it. Then the author Carrie Vaughn had a blog about the two shows and she wrote:

I read a review of Once that was very excited about how women-centric it is, how it passes the Bechdel Test, etc. But I’m not sure watching the two main characters spend forty minutes perpetrating petty revenges on one another in an effort to see who better deserves to be mother to a cloying moppet is quite what the Bechdel Test had in mind. The second episode is essentially one long catfight, and not a very interesting one. Oh, and about that moppet. There’s a subtext here about adoption that I find troubling. You can tell me “oh, it’s because it’s based on fairy tales,” but I’m not sure that excuses what’s going on here: the only good mother is a “real” mother. I’m kind of squicked out, watching this show.

And I felt that summed up part of the problem I was having with the show.

The other issue I have is that when it comes to fairy tales I prefer the more grim Brothers Grimm versions as opposed to the Disneyfied Desperate Housewives versions that seems to be playing out in Once Upon A Time. So I guess I prefer Grimm for being....well grim.

[Just a peasant]

Monroe makes the show.

I really like Grimm though, possibly solely because of Silas Weir Mitchell. The show has gotten better as the season has progressed.

Juliette, Nick's girlfriend, has grown from being nothing to actually playing a part and having a personality. I want Nick to embrace his Grimm-ness.

[LugaJetboyGirl]

So far, the victims have been:

- Ep. 1, a college female jogger and a little girl

- Ep. 2, a heterosexual couple, with the male half being abused much more than the female

- Ep. 3, various women on buses; the episode centered around the Mellifers, bee-people, and the vast majority of bees in a hive are female.

- Ep. 4, no one dies, but the seduction victims are all women (but the antagonist's power was shown to have an influence on men)

- Ep. 5, a middle-aged male string teacher

- Ep. 6, two men

- Ep. 7, a man in his 30s and a young feral girl (other victims were a heterosexual couple on a hike; woman escaped, while the man was kidnapped and spent the entire episode being beaten, and the episode does not show him being rescued)

- Ep. 8, three men, including the main character, and a woman

- Ep. 9, three men

Looks about even to me. The bitching about "in almost all circumstances" is stupid.

Well, if you read my post more carefully, you'll see that I never said all the victims are women. I said

.

In almost all circumstances the women in the show are victims.

There is a difference, you know.

Edit: I adjusted the OP to make it more clear.

[Minaku]

All and "in almost all" are close, unless by "in almost all" you meant 55% or thereabouts.

The show doesn't have a lot of female characters to start with, so I don't think you can complain about the women not doing much. Aunt Marie's screentime was 50% kickass and 50% kickass while lying in bed. If she could have killed Monroe with her eye lasers, she would have.

We aren't totally sold on the female Hex but she's not entirely happy to be taking orders from Renard. However, just because she's in his employ doesn't mean she's automatically a low-powered character. Her day job is a lawyer, for crying out loud. She isn't setting the show back 50 years in the slightest. She hasn't had much screen time so far but her role isn't a throwaway one. Just like Renard is very important to the show. He's a major plot character and yet he gets only a few minutes of screen time per episode, with the exception of Game Ogre.

I still think you're making mountains out of molehills with this show. If anything, the casting directors should steer away from the willowy blonde girls. There have been several. They've all been kind of dumb, too. Then again, this is shot on location in Portland. I don't know the demographics of the city, much less the actor population of the city, but there just may be an overabundance of skinny blonde girls auditioning for bit parts on the show.

[drawkcabi]

I love Once Upon A Time, easily my favorite new show this year. As much as I love OUaT I loathe Grimm because it just bores the Hell out of me. Also I think it's unfair to dislike the show because of it's Disney characters. The characters are allowed to be more similar, have much of the same characteristics, and similar attitudes as the Disney characters, because, well Disney owns ABC which owns the show, but in this show the shit gets real for these characters.

I am all for the trend of shows being darker or grim if you prefer but with the series Grimm, just adding more blood and monsters and a higher body count doesn't automatically make it better if the story-telling is boring in the first place.

As for OUaT, they really are putting these characters out of their comfort zone and giving them some serious dark tones, I have no doubt if this series goes the course it will end in mostly sweet happy endings (hopefully there will be some bittersweet in there too though) but so far it's looking to be an awfully bumpy ride getting there!

Spoiler from the latest episode:

They made an eighth dwarf, Stealthy, just so they could kill him. Granted it might have been more meaningful if it had been one of the 7 we know that got killed, but it wasn't the right point in the story for that as all 7 need to be there up to the point when Snow is revived by James (Prince Charming) after eating the poison apple. For what it was, I loved this plot point! It gives the eight that are now seven dwarves more depth and a deeper bond with Snow than just finding her in the forest and taking her home with them that the classic Disney story does to get them together.

I actually much prefer Once Upon a Time, though to be fair, I only half watched the first episode of Grimm. Just by comparing pilots, though, I felt that OUaT had much more depth, better characterizations, and more potential to become a well-rounded drama.

It also has very strong female leads. Three of them.

Five if you look at it another way.

And I love Regina/The Queen. I don't mind her being melodramatic she just draws me in whenever she's on screen.

And Robert Carlyle as Mr.Gold/Rumplestilskin...I hope he gets and Emmy nomination, I so totally love his portrayal of his characters. Such a great counter to Regina.

[LugaJetboyGirl]

The show doesn't have a lot of female characters to start with, so I don't think you can complain about the women not doing much.

This is pretty much the point I am making. I would say, given screen time and number of lines, the main characters are Nick, Monroe, Nick's partner, and Police Chief. Juliette has only had happy domestic scenes with Nick, at least until the last two episodes when she got to actually do something - it looks like they are setting her up to figure out that Nick is a Grimm.

So the show has no major female characters, other than Juliette, who has been mostly peripheral up to point. Otherwise, the female characters have been victims, except for the few short appearances that I listed in the OP.

[Underfoot]

It it true it has a number of female leads. Something was bothering me about the show, however, and I couldn't quite place it. Then the author Carrie Vaughn had a blog about the two shows and she wrote:

And I felt that summed up part of the problem I was having with the show.

The other issue I have is that when it comes to fairy tales I prefer the more grim Brothers Grimm versions as opposed to the Disneyfied Desperate Housewives versions that seems to be playing out in Once Upon A Time. So I guess I prefer Grimm for being....well grim.

Initially, yeah, the rivalry over Henry (Is that his name? God, I can't even remember. Hate that little bugger) was really irritating, but that aspect of the show has really toned down, and Regina and Emma have sort of become co-parents, almost like after a nasty divorce.

Like Drawkcabi said, the Disneyfied-ness of the show can be attributed to the fact that Disney owns ABC. And OUaT is actually pretty dark, especially in the fantasy world.

For example

There was that couple in the episode centered on Jimminy Cricket that were turned into dolls. Sheriff Graham was killed, and he was kind of a main character. The EQ killed her own father. Stealthy was killed.

Grimm I'm sure is much darker and certainly has a lot more deaths, but that can be attributed to the fact that it is basically a crime show, except with fantasy elements.

I agree though, OUaT is pretty melodramatic.

[Manhole Eunuchsbane]

Agreed. The guy has no personality whatsoever. The only character I genuinely like is Monroe.

This. He's the only reason to watch this show. As the OP mentioned in the first post, the mythos is so poorly developed/examined that it really makes it feel like the storylines are just coming out of Left Field every week.

[Centrist Simon Steele]

So I can tell one of my old college roommates to stop picking on me for watching all the seasons of Angel when I got back from class each morning until I was caught up and then watched them at night?

Pshhhh...you should be picking on him for not understanding the absolute badassery of Angel.