Walkind Dead Season 2 (continued)

[Spring Bass]

Like I said, they also don't duck, try to find cover, or spread out, all of which reduces artillery's effectiveness. If anything, the opposite behavior will occur - they'll swarm towards the loud noise.

Besides, the hordes of zombies caught in the blasts aren't going to be blown into convenient chunks that can still move around. The artillery will shred them into pink mist (particularly the high explosive fragmentation rounds). Brooks actually captured that right in the Battle for Yonkers, although he got some other stuff wrong.

Napalm or any incendary rounds would at least try to fry they fuckers, Trying to get enough of it in the right place to effectively combat the zombies is still problematic.

Burning a zombie until it's effectively immobilized is pretty nice. At the very least, you'd likely destroy their ability to see, smell, or hear potential targets.

[Lady Olenna]

In the first season when Rick goes into Atlanta and lands himself in a tank - was the soldier dead and became a zombie or was he just a trapped zombie?

Random, I know, but it would have answered an important question early on.

[Lady Octarina]

In the first season when Rick goes into Atlanta and lands himself in a tank - was the soldier dead and became a zombie or was he just a trapped zombie?

Random, I know, but it would have answered an important question early on.

I think he was injured, wasn't he? And I remember Frank Darabont planned on telling that soldier's story, which is why he actually hired a known-actor for the part, so... I assume he was actually attacked and hid and died there.

[Yoadm]

WWZ's depiction of the military 's stratagic failures at the beginning of the outbreak made a lot of sense. There is no army around that is prepared or well supplied enough to kill millions and millions of opposing troops, even zombies. That's the problem, when your enemy consist of millions of bodies that are immune to fear, shock and awe, millions of troops that implacable opponents who will never stop trying to kill you, who simply keep attacking, the moral of your troops will be severely affected. While you can squash a "lot" with a tank when u are talking millions, there comes a point when even a tank can get clogged and bogged down. I won't fault TWD for not trying to graphically portray that, we'll see how well the WWZ movie handles it.

Your average military base has tens of millions of ammo bullets, sometimes hundreds of millions if you are talking about a logistical base. And that's discounting heavy weaponary. One of those, versus millions of shambling, slow, creaturs, is a turkey shoot. A thousand well equipped troops, firing single rounds, even without tanks, would probably handle a few million zombies before their weapons malfunction.

Artillary would also do "wonders". It's a weapon designed to handle infantry, not heavy armor. Now, infantry that is not dug in, but out in the open and bunched up? Each round can disintigrate hundreds, easily, even if those are only vulnrable to head-wounds.

[peterbound]

For a pretty damn good rendition of what might got down in a military sense if the zombies hit, check out Day by Day Armageddon. Great freaking book.

[Dark Rider]

In 28 Weeks Later they just are overwhelmed at first with the initial breakout of infected and then when the military is full code red it became a matter of pinning down their location well enough to clense the infected zone. Firebombing, nerve gas, in 28 Weeks Later they do damn near everything and yet somehow the virus gets out of the UK despite their best efforts. Viruses want to live. Without a vaccine you'd never be able to end a virus and of course you'd have to vaccinate a lot of people to kill a global pandemic or simply hold out long enough for the infected to die off or for the virus to "burn" out. Even then the virus could mutate and adapt.

Once it goes global and a significant population is infected it becomes a game of running around trying to put out fires with a short hose really. Few things bring an army to its knees faster than disease. So I can buy that the military wouldn't be able to stop the spread and hold together.

In the TWD the military obviously killed TONS of infected. The fire bombing in Atlanta defintely took its toll, because you don't witness 416,000+ zombies at the point Rick shows up more like hundreds or maybe a few thousand. Military got a lot of walkers, but couldn't take them all down before going down itself. That's one thing that needs to be improved in the production value is that they should be coming across some areas with raging fires (think 28 Days Later) or areas that look like the Gulf War highway of death with burned out cars and crisped bodies. They show Atlanta being firebombed in a CGI scene with a flashback of Shane and Lori on their way there, but when they're in Atlanta the windows of buildings are still intact. It's the little things, the details, that make for a good zombie apocalypse. Hell, there might be even nuclear weapons used at some point and whole areas you couldn't travel through due to radation.

[Spring Bass]

Your average military base has tens of millions of ammo bullets, sometimes hundreds of millions if you are talking about a logistical base. And that's discounting heavy weaponary. One of those, versus millions of shambling, slow, creaturs, is a turkey shoot. A thousand well equipped troops, firing single rounds, even without tanks, would probably handle a few million zombies before their weapons malfunction.

Yes, but the military isn't going to just be hunkering down in their bases, waiting for the zombies to come to them. They'd be going around all over the place trying to put down outbreaks, all likely in the middle of a panic and chaos. That's a serious logistical issue, although I think they'd probably be able to wipe out many of the large swarms.

Of course, I think they'd eventually give up on that, and try to simply create "safe zones" keeping the swarms out while preventing the inevitable death-to-reanimation from starting outbreaks within. Fort Detrick is one likely place, being the military's anti-biological weapons facility.

In 28 Weeks Later they just are overwhelmed at first with the initial breakout of infected and then when the military is full code red it became a matter of pinning down their location well enough to clense the infected zone. Firebombing' date=' nerve gas, in 28 Weeks Later they do damn near everything and yet somehow the virus gets out of the UK despite their best efforts. Viruses want to live. Without a vaccine you'd never be able to end a virus and of course you'd have to vaccinate a lot of people to kill a global pandemic or simply hold out long enough for the infected to die off or for the virus to "burn" out. Even then the virus could mutate and adapt.[/quote']

In 28 Weeks Later, it was because they were a bunch of idiots in that movie. They left the carrier woman unguarded, allowing her husband to sneak in. They shoved everybody into a dark, crowded room when they found out there was a Rage Zombie wandering around, and then didn't seal down all the entrances to that room. It wasn't until they'd let the whole situation got out of hand due to their stupid response strategy that they tried to fire-bomb everything.

[Lady Olenna]

I think he was injured, wasn't he? And I remember Frank Darabont planned on telling that soldier's story, which is why he actually hired a known-actor for the part, so... I assume he was actually attacked and hid and died there.

Oh ok. I thought maybe he died naturally (starvation or whatever) and then turned. But it would make sense that he got bitten and hid in the tank.

And I thought at some point Rick or one of them mentioned that most of the local military had gone AWOL when the virus hit to be with their family?

Either way, I'm kind of surprised that there hasn't been more mention of the military. They couldn't all have died and odds are that however many were left would ban together just for the sake of survival.

I can sorta understand why they wouldn't have better guns (it can be rationalized even if it is flimsy logic) but what I have a hard time understanding is why they weren't better prepared. They should have secured their perimeters, had an evac route, a buddy system for keeping watch, etc.

Why did it take the threat of humans to light the fire under them? That just seems nonsensical to me. I understand it helps get them off the farm to have a massive attack of walkers (as well as kill off unneeded characters) but it could have been more realistically written.

Maybe the budget didn't allow for that kind of logic.

[paddington]

I'd guess alot of the not so bright behaviour is to create tension. The big problem I have with slow zombies, is there just not that scary as monsters. Even I can come up with some ideas that would increase your chances of not getting your face chewed off.

The scary part of shambling zombies is how the people around you act, not really the zombies. Or what you lose, like unlimited fresh water, almost endless food, power, medicine.

Honestly the worst part of the ZA will be the other people you meet, the ones that don't have a coherent plan an want to play the I am in charge power games. Zombies not scary, other people with guns is the scary bit.

[awesome possum]

Judging from what happened at the hospital, how the military just opened up on people as opposed to zombies, I can see that happening a lot. Get a quarantine zone or defense line, blast anyone who tries to come near it. Only, when you're blasting humans you're just turning them into zombies.

[Yoadm]

Yes, but the military isn't going to just be hunkering down in their bases, waiting for the zombies to come to them. They'd be going around all over the place trying to put down outbreaks, all likely in the middle of a panic and chaos. That's a serious logistical issue, although I think they'd probably be able to wipe out many of the large swarms.

Logistics get problematic with heavy weaponary (fuel, heavy artillary rounds, etc..). Light arms require very little logistics. One 10 ton airdrop is enough for 1 million bullets, if I remember correctly from my army time.

Btw, even WWZ has some problems in how they describe the battles. For instance, there is no concept of elastic defence. Every battle is 'fight or die'. It's strange considering how slow the zombies are and how easy it is to retreat. Even if you feel you are overwhealmed, retreat, lose no men, and within a day gather the zombies and mow them down again. Rinse and repeat. Another tactic would be to gather them in droves using a few mobile troops, into a large concentration, and then bombing them with artillary and air-craft. Oh, and Nukes arn't even mentioned in such a scenario, which is also strange.

[Lady Octarina]

I can sorta understand why they wouldn't have better guns (it can be rationalized even if it is flimsy logic) but what I have a hard time understanding is why they weren't better prepared. They should have secured their perimeters, had an evac route, a buddy system for keeping watch, etc.

Why did it take the threat of humans to light the fire under them? That just seems nonsensical to me. I understand it helps get them off the farm to have a massive attack of walkers (as well as kill off unneeded characters) but it could have been more realistically written.

Maybe the budget didn't allow for that kind of logic.

But I think it makes sense to have them ignore the threat as long as it's limited to slow zombies - I mean, they had never even seen a herd that big, so I imagine they were confident they'd be able to defeat a couple of zombies that managed to get through the fence. And this show is more focused on the humans, the human drama of zombie apocalypse, than the zombies themselves, so... yeah, I do think it makes sense that they would only protect themselves when they saw the human threat, as stupid as it was anyway.

And budget limitations and the need to build up the tension were probably a good part of it as well, of course =P

[Former Lord of Winterfell]

I'd guess alot of the not so bright behaviour is to create tension.

I think the not-so-bright behavior is a neccesary ingredient, maybe even the primary attraction, of the whole zombie apocalyse genre. The focus of discussions generally is how we'd all do it better/differently than what we're watching on screen. We like watching so we can think about what we'd do, and how we'd be so much smarter and able to handle it. We talk about the tactics, the perfect anti-zombie stronghold, etc. Because I'm one who believe the reality of the typical slow-moving zombie "apocalypse" would be a very quick killing of the zombies, apart from the occasional stragglers, if people, the cops, and the military reacted realistically. Can't have that happen because then you'd have no movie, so instead, we kind of have them all act stupid, get overrun, so we can all plot how we'd survive.

Maybe the most "realistic" slow-moving zombie movie was the original Night of the Living Dead. Seven people trapped in a farmhouse during the initial outbreak, one gun, limited ammo, and a slowly growing horde of zombies trying to get in. You could really see how even people acting intelligently might be fucked in that situation.

But in the meantime, you get flashed to scenes of the local sheriff and deputies, augmented by gun-toting civilians, rather calmly and easily taking down the pathetically slow moving zombies. The sheriff gets asked at one point how tough it will be to suppress them, and he kind of drawls that "they're pretty slow, just shoot 'em in the head and they go down pretty easy." That's the reality -- a group of a couple dozen rednecks with the ammo in their home alone could kill thousands of slow-moving, relatively unconcentrated zombies.

[paddington]

Yeah I think thats the whole appeal of zombies as well, everyone thinks they would survive the zombie apocalypse.

I be more scared of the rednecks with guns, ammo and beer, than a slow moving zombie. Although I'd imagine a group of average Brits with guns would be more a danger to themselves than zombies.

[Myrddin]

You know, I think you are all taking out a key element in these "how they should react to emergencies" scenarios: The Human Factor.

Humans are dumb, by and large. They are both easily panicked and in turn become quickly complacent.

All the military weapons and tactics are designed around an enemy who will break and run at some point. You can pump thousands of rounds into a zombie herd, but how many of those will connect with brain tissue?

As for emergency plans, up until the herd rolled in, they had no idea that was a possibility. The last episode, they were stocking food and water in the basement as their emergency plan.

If an earthquake happened right now that cut off electricity/communications/etc, how would you find your loved ones? Do you have a central rally point? Do you have food and equipment stashed to last your family a few days?

Anyway. Yes, they should've had a plan in place. Yes, the military should've been more effective stopping the z virus from getting out of hand. Yes, Carl should keep his little butt in the house.

Except for the human factor. That screws things up all the time.

[Former Lord of Winterfell]

Logistics get problematic with heavy weaponary (fuel, heavy artillary rounds, etc..). Light arms require very little logistics. One 10 ton airdrop is enough for 1 million bullets, if I remember correctly from my army time.

Absolutely. As a former artillery officer myself, that shit would be borderline useless in most zombie situations. Ammo is extremely heavy, and the area of lethal (to zombies) effect would be pretty limited -- it works best on concentrated enemies, so maybe the horde in Atlanta. Of course, then you'd need observers, and getting the trajectory right in the midst of all those tall buildings wouldn't be easy. Anyway, a basic load of ammo for a battery might be 600 rounds. And you'd need all the trucks and shit to support that. In the meantime, the 150-200 troops in that battery would each be carrying a basic load of 180 or so rounds. In an apocalypse, I could just hear my Marines saying "Fuck it sir, they're slow as shit. Why don't we just go out there and shoot the fuckers in the head." And they'd be absolutely right.

The stuff in WWZ just didn't make much sense to me. Troops are not that stupid, and it would very quickly figured out (and disseminated) that you need headshots to kill. Marines train for aimed fire from a prone position at 500 yards. You take even a squad, put them in 5 tons with the bed covers off, and they'd take out hundreds, easily, just by taking up firing positions and plinking away.

Just by way of comparison, look at the Battle of Roarke's Drift. You had 150 British, many of whom were sick, armed with single shot, hand-fed, Martini-Henry rifles. They defended a lightly fortified mission against 3-4000 disciplined, intelligent, very fast-moving Zulus armed with spears and some firearms. Though the battle was hard-fought, it was a statistical walk. The Brits lost only 15 men or so, and 5 of those from long-distance gun fire. The Zulus were repelled with extremely heavy losses. Firepower is king.

If you take modern troops, armed with magazine-fed assault rifles, and put them in windows, on buildings, or even in high-sided, trucks, they could slaughter huge numbers of slow moving zombies with aimed fire, and the zombies would never even get close. If any did get close, they'd be trying to get in windows that are too high off the ground, or trying to clamber up the sides of a 5-ton, or looking at a dude leaning out a window a couple of floors up, and guys would be putting rounds into their heads at distances of a few meters. A complete slaughter.

28 weeks made more sense because transmission/turning was so quick, and the infected were so damn fast. That scene in the Tube, where you had one infected get into a crowd of people, showed somehwat realistically how that could be a real problem.

[Former Lord of Winterfell]

Yeah I think thats the whole appeal of zombies as well, everyone thinks they would survive the zombie apocalypse.

I be more scared of the rednecks with guns, ammo and beer, than a slow moving zombie. Although I'd imagine a group of average Brits with guns would be more a danger to themselves than zombies.

There would be some pretty fascinating socio/legal stuff going on, though, if you assume the "everyone is infected scenario". Just think of what that would mean for places like nursing homes, or hospitals, where any person who dies would shortly rise from the dead and commence chewing. No more CPR, that's for sure. You might see calls for euthanasia of the sick or elderly, etc. What about car accidents, or fires? Would police and first responders be so eager to get in for rescues when the person they are trying to rescue may have died and turned?

We'd end up becoming a pretty heartless society pretty fast in some respects.

[awesome possum]

I wrote a short story years ago where everyone is infected and reanimates after dying. The result was a SWAT-team like group of police/soldiers whose sole job is to man hospitals/arrive at accidents to put back down anyone who died.

[So1ar]

28 weeks made more sense because transmission/turning was so quick, and the infected were so damn fast. That scene in the Tube, where you had one infected get into a crowd of people, showed somehwat realistically how that could be a real problem.

yeah I agree man. the slow zombie thing isn't very realistic in terms of overrunning everyone. like you said, any marines/swat teams/armed soldiers would just completely slaughter the zombies. 28 days/weeks later makes more sense because you turn in about 7 seconds and the zombies sprint everywhere.

that's one reason i wish this show would incorporate different types of zombies like in left for dead. i'm not saying we need massive hulk zombies, but it would be cool if some are faster/smarter/and even stronger than other types.

[paddington]

There would be some pretty fascinating socio/legal stuff going on, though, if you assume the "everyone is infected scenario". Just think of what that would mean for places like nursing homes, or hospitals, where any person who dies would shortly rise from the dead and commence chewing. No more CPR, that's for sure. You might see calls for euthanasia of the sick or elderly, etc. What about car accidents, or fires? Would police and first responders be so eager to get in for rescues when the person they are trying to rescue may have died and turned?

We'd end up becoming a pretty heartless society pretty fast in some respects.

That's a far more interesting a concept, what kind of society comes after. Not just your run of the mill wasteland type.