[Book Spoilers] EP201 Discussion

[Sci-2]

I don't think it resonated emotionally cause that wasn't what the directors were going for. Rather than make us feel for a character that dies in the first scene, they use it to give us an idea of just how powerful and scary Melisandre is. I liked it better that way, myself

Yeah, it would have been a waste of air time to develop Cressen. And I say that as someone who finds Melisandre's intro to be one of my fav parts in the entire series.

[Narrow C]

Still get chills up my spine every time the opening credits start.

So we went a full season with no comet, and now it appears in pretty much every scene. Osha's comment does well to tell us why they did that... it couldn't appear until the dragons did, I guess.

I too groaned when the brothel tryout scene began, but got over it quickly since that's where they had to be in order to show the Massacre of the Bastards. It also showed us pretty seamlessly that Ros had taken over the place for Littlefinger.

Loved the scene with Bran looking in the pool, as if to make sure his face was still his own and not the wolf's.

I started swearing at the screen when Theon pledged his loyalty to Robb...

Stannis is exactly how I pictured him. Mel, I thought, was able to look dangerous and menacing without being a Disney caricature of evil.

Looking forward to re-watching it tonight to figure out what all I had missed.

[aghrivaine]

Hallo all. Most of what I felt has been said already (as is so often the case) but I'll chime in on the Littlefinger/Cersei confrontation.

Like a lot of you probably did, I rewatched the last season over the weekend, this time with the commentaries on. I noticed that, again and again, the writers, actors, director, producers - all mentioned over and over "the relationship." This seems to be the lens through which they are approaching the story - a series of relationships that taken together constitute a plot. I understand that an actor will necessarily have to thoroughly comprehend his or her character's relationship to the other people in the scene, it's what makes their interactions breathe and seem real.

But I think it's now officially been taken too far - as this confrontation seemed to exist solely to flesh out Cersei and Littlefinger's relationship. They are both wielders of "soft power" - however much it galls both of them, and they're both competing for the same influence and authority. (As is Varys, but he's just better at keeping his cards close to his chest.)

I don't think this scene shed any particular light on their individual characters, or their relationships to each other, that wouldn't have been clear from previous or eventual interactions. Further, from a screenwriting perspective, their dialogue - and especially Littlfinger's - is far too "on the nose"; meaning it exactly states what the character's ambition or desire is, rather than illustrating it through other means. That one scene stuck out like a sore thumb, as being both unnecessary and poorly written. Both actors approached it like champs, though, and so it wasn't completely wasted. But it definitely stuck out to me.

Contrast that with the confrontation between Robb and Jaime (here we go with more relationsihps! I predict in the commentary for this season, both actors will say "such an interesting relationship our characters have!"). In this, we see a genuine change in Robb; he is becoming the picture of a rebel leader, who has the sang-froid to stare down one of the most feared knights in the world, and sees the situation for what it is; not a complete victory, but a strong position that he is trying to leverage for even more gain. And doesn't that make what we all know will happen to Robb that much more tragic? Series Robb is even more likeable than book Robb. Whereas Jaime is clearly rattled by his captivity and by being menaced by a direwolf, but by golly, he will NOT let it show. And I thought this was a particularly fine acting job by Coster-Waldau, who deftly managed portraying a man who experiences fear and trepidation, but doesn't let it color his actions or words, at all. That was a great scene, well-written and well portrayed. Plus - direwolf!

I hope the rest of Season 2 will diverge from the books less than this initial episode.

[Rand]

I was absolutely amazed by Jack Gleeson's performance. Outstanding for such a young actor. I tryed to look up his age but couldn't find it. If anyone can help mey, beers are on me :D

Gleeson was amazing the way he portrayed Jeoffrey's stupidity and cruelty. Even his body language, his face, everything was perfect. We may have a rising star on our hands.

I did not, however, agree with the director's interpretation of the character. Jeoffrey is stupid and cruel and craven. His threatening his mother is something that the character would never do in the books. I mean, he's even afraid of his uncle, the Imp. To speak back and even threaten his mother, that's not him. He knows who his mother is and what she is capable of doing. He would never dare threaten her. The character in the books, I mean.

If you didn't notice there's been some modifications to Joffrey's for the show, giving him some degree of competence. If you recal in the first season who goes off on a rant to Cersei about having a standing army, and he could have been BS'ing but Grand Maeser Pycelle did comment that he had a strong military mind. Also note at the end of season 1 that Gleason's character showed genuine concern/confusion as to why Ned Stark would say he's not the rightful King, what he 'meant' by that. Him questioning Cersei about it to start season 2 is just a continuation of all that.

I think what we're seeing here is the same thing that Harry Lloyd did for Viserys: take a character from the book that was a cruel unlikeable dirtbag and add a sympathetic element to him. For myself at least the impression I get of the Joffrey onscreen is an unrestrained teenager (and kids/teenagers can be cruel) who's very much a product of his environment, that if he fell under the guidance of someone like Ned Stark could have been redeemable.

[legba11]

Yep, I think we have seen evidence both ways (making Cersei more/less evil). Putting the murder of the bastards on film (as opposed to thrown in bit of information which happens off camera) certainly puts the evil hat on someone pretty heavily. Janos Slynt directly (as a good chunk of the audience will put Ned's betrayal on LF's shoulders and not even realize it was him too). If we find out it was Cersei (which I think they do in the books via Tyrion and Varys), it's hard to say they are softening her image overall.

She made it clear her love of Robert ended on their wedding night, which would be at least 9 months before the mysterious crown prince death.

It seems clear to me that she is the true villain of the books, but she doesn't take on that role until Book 4 (which will likely be Season 5 if we are lucky enough to get that far), so there is plenty of time for the producers to put her exactly where they want her to be. They have clearly fleshed out her character (thankfully, to be honest I think Martin did a VERY poor job of that in the early books). The Sopranos conversation with Robert (last season) was a great addition (I realize that and Roz makes the purists' heads explode here), and I think the scene with LF was a critical early development point (see page 13?).

If she is your villain, she should be deeper than she was in the books. Jaime's face turn (next season) is going to be a massive chore for the writers, as Vince McMahon knows, the best way to due is make sure the audience really hates the person who is opposing them. Jaime begins Game of Thrones lower than probably any character in the history of television, in Season 3+, he largely plays the role of hero for the Iron Throne story line. A fully developed Cersei will make that turn possible.

[Katydid]

Be reasonable, I think that the show did what was necessary in order to engage the audience and introduce the new characters and create some form of understanding their roles. Obviously they will be broadened as the season continues. Lets not forget that they have to hook the population that haven't read the books yet either.

IMO, leaving irrelevant, throw-away scenes (in this episode, the Whorecathalon) out of the show would go a long way to dedicating more time to relevant characters. In this case, no, Cressen wasn't a major player at all. But a tiny bit more of him (for instance, imparting the fact that he raised the Baratheon boys and looks on them as sons) wouldn't have hurt, nor taken a boatload of screentime to illustrate.

Take away Ros and her stupid scene in the whorehouse (which, for me, actually took away some from the horror of little Barra's murder), and you'd have had time for that.

[teemo]

One small question,

How did Osha, a wildling, know that the comet signified the return of the dragons?

Was this mentioned in the books?

Yes, she said the said thing.

[unRobert]

Yes, she said the said thing.

Not sure if she did. I know Old Nan sniffed the air and said dragons in reference to the comet (awesome scene in the books). But I guess Osha needs to start displaying that wisdom if she is (speculatively) to replace the reeds.

[gramblor]

IMO, leaving irrelevant, throw-away scenes (in this episode, the Whorecathalon) out of the show would go a long way to dedicating more time to relevant characters. In this case, no, Cressen wasn't a major player at all. But a tiny bit more of him (for instance, imparting the fact that he raised the Baratheon boys and looks on them as sons) wouldn't have hurt, nor taken a boatload of screentime to illustrate.

Take away Ros and her stupid scene in the whorehouse (which, for me, actually took away some from the horror of little Barra's murder), and you'd have had time for that.

I see what you're saying, and I don't really like the character of Ros either, but they needed a way to introduce her as the head of the brothel (will most likely take over the place of Chataya for Tyrions escapades later on), but also gives a segway into the murder of Robert's bastards. As much as everyone talks about the brothel scene being horrid and unnecessary, it will in fact be pretty important in the long run i think. Lets not forget that scene was also about 2 minutes of screen time, its not like it was 30 minutes of a 55 minute episode....

[teemo]

Here we go...

Luwin was telling Bran that the wolves were howling at the comet. Osha says, "Your wolves have more wit than your maester. They know truths the grey man has forgotten." When Bran asks what the comet meant, she said, "Blood and fire, boy, and nothing sweet." So, no, she didn't say dragons, but sounded like she was alluding to them.

A couple paragraphs later, about Old Nan.

"Dragons," she said, lifting her head and sniffing. She was near blind and could not see the comet, yet she claimed she could smell it. "It be dragons, boy," she insisted.

[Sound_of_winter]

I have to say i really liked the episode, YES it was different than the books, but i have learned to love the show and the books seperatly. I am sad they didn't stick the prologue in there, i thought it would have been a great fit, and it would have given us a great introduction to Davos, Stan, and Mel. Danny's bit was boring just like the books, but everything else was exciting. Yeah yeah i get it Craster looked clean, Little Finger is being dumbed down, but do we need 17 pages of ranting about the same thing? :dunno: Even though i read the books the show managed to keep me excited and suprised (which means the writers are doing something right)

-i was excited to see Bran's dreams ( and WOW has he grown)

- the direwolves looked badass

- Robb's interaction with Jaime was bad ass (admit it)

- Stannis being a funny ass-hat was great

- Tyrion pissing off his sister is always a blast

- Sansa played her role perfectly

- and that last scene has me so excited for what's to come! ( and DAMN does Gendry look good :drool: )

All in all it was a great episode, it's only the first episode guys, it will get much better from here!

[unRobert]

Here we go...

Luwin was telling Bran that the wolves were howling at the comet. Osha says, "Your wolves have more wit than your maester. They know truths the grey man has forgotten." When Bran asks what the comet meant, she said, "Blood and fire, boy, and nothing sweet." So, no, she didn't say dragons, but sounded like she was alluding to them.

A couple paragraphs later, about Old Nan.

"Dragons," she said, lifting her head and sniffing. She was near blind and could not see the comet, yet she claimed she could smell it. "It be dragons, boy," she insisted.

Ah, yes... Osha is wise, and I like her character on the show a lot. simple consolidations that don't bother me none. I just love Old Nan, and that was one of her best lines (OK to be fair she is the old wise crone that gets all the good lines).

[Lannes]

Craster is never described as dirty and grimey in the books. He is described as old, white haired, and powerful. He doesn't really seem like he does a lot of the dirty work around his keep. I always pictured him as a guy who sat around drinking, eating, and creeping on his wives. Which is exactly how they portrayed him in the show.

Well....that's books for you. One person's grimey pedarest is another person's layabout creeper.

Small potatoes, really, next to next week's incoming wall of texts over whether or not Brienne is ugly enough. :drunk:

[Recentiy03]

Dolorous Edd walks with Jon when they arrive at Cressen's house. They fit in his "...later I came onto hard times" bit there.

Roy Dotrice plays the pyromancer Hallyne.

Thanks, I'll have to rewatch and pay closer attention for Edd. Does he have sorta reddish hair? Someone posted a picture where he might be standing between Sam and Jon, but if that's the case, he is about 20 years younger than I imagined. Although perhaps that isn't him.

As for Dotrice, the name of that character doesn't ring a bell...when should we expect to see him?

Edit- from Wiki, regarding Hallyne:

A Clash of Kings

He does a circuit of the walls of King's Landing with Cersei Lannister.^[5] Hallyne guides Tyrion Lannister through the Alchemists' Guild Hall, explaining wildfire and the roll of the Alchemists's Guild.^[6]

For services rendered during the Battle of the Blackwater, Hallyne was raised to the title of Lord, though no lands or incomes were given along with the title.^[7]

-----

TBH, none of that rings a bell, which is odd, but I think in my memory I always assumed Hallyne was Qyburn, which is apparently not so.

[Blangadanger]

First Impressions

I thought it was a decent episode which had some nice moments, but overall kind of dampened by too much content in too little time. Initially I was kind of turned off by the Littlefinger getting trapped by Cersei (how is that even possible??), Robb not mentioning his father's sword in his terms, and Tyrion taking Shae straight to the Hand's tower (she doesn't even get there until the very end of Book 3 I think).

Power vs. Power, eh?

However I think I can live with the Cersei/LF confrontation because it does develop each of those characters a little more for the show. I can understand why they want to show Baelish's motivations, because in the book it's all told in flashbacks from Catelyn's perspective (which would be boring tv imho), but I think they're pushing just a little too hard. I think the average viewer understands that there's clearly a lot going through Baelish's mind as it pertains to the Starks. I kind of liked the cliche "power vs. power" line, since it just shows how naive Cersei is about her situation. On a second watch, I couldn't help thinking that the gardener who witnessed the whole confrontation was Varys in disguise, but only the book readers would think of that.

Robb vs. Jaime

Robb not mentioning his sword seems like a stupid error, unless they don't plan on showing it again in the series. It played such a prominent role in the first season, so I assumed it would show up again this season. Though I think it's sad that they're just getting rid of Cat's heated conversation with Jaime at the end of Book 2, I can forgive the writers since the HBO viewers already know the truth. It's pretty hard to keep tension going in film/tv for such a long time when it isn't there for the audience in the first place. Besides, the two confrontations (s1ep10 and s2ep1) have been nicely done imo. I loved the slow pan for the entrance of Grey Wind. The direwolves are starting to feel like important characters on their own. It also helps the audience understand the incredible victories that Robb has, since Grey Wind plays a big part.

Shae in the Hand's Tower?

Tyrion taking Shae straight to the tower seems a rather unfortunate choice. Are they really going to try to force the tension of his hiding her directly into his room? It's going to be hard to convince the audience that guards can't just march into his tower at any time and find her there. Perhaps they're taking that entire chunk of story (a pretty significant part of Tyrion's story in Books 2 and 3) and changing it a bit, giving Shae a more vital role. Not something I would agree with, but I'm willing to see if it works.

Deaths to All Stag Bastards

The sex scene was so preposterous everyone at my viewing party just burst out laughing at once. I do like that they used that scene to introduce us more to Janos Slynt, the no. 1 douchebag in Westeros. People will definitely remember his face now, and it will also serve as more of a moral victory when Tyrion approaches him about it.

To Drink First, or No?

Everyone at my party also complained about the poison swap with Melisandre, but I don't think it really matters that much to the viewers since it lets you know that she is mysteriously powerful. In retrospect, I think that opening sequence with Stannis is probably the weakest of all the characters they've introduced. However I think it's somewhat fitting since the audience already has characters it's rooting for, and their favorite characters all dismiss Stannis as unkingly. Indeed the only main character who seems to support him so far is Jaime in a mocking way. It's probably better that Stannis and his witch-like guide have a slow build-up to some big surprises later in the season.

Every Actor Deserves His/Her Five Minutes

I understood why they wanted to include nearly every storyline, but it would have made for a better episode if they hadn't. The story of Bran and Dany was particularly rushed and forced and could have been saved until later. Hopefully it's only a big problem in the first episode.

Cersei vs. Everyone

I thought the Cersei scenes were all acted very well by Headey. Strangely enough I think the Cersei/Joffrey confrontation was more powerful than the Cersei/Tyrion confrontation. The future conversations with Tyrion need to have a bit more weight, perhaps by slightly slower cuts between cross-shots. I'm a little worried they may have made Joffrey just a tad too confident. If he's so eager to kill off his mother and forget his uncle and grandfather, it's going to be tough for audiences to believe that Tyrion can take over King's Landing. It's still possible, but they've just raised the challenge higher.

Arry's Hair

I could really tell from the small glimpse of Arya that her natural hair looks way better on-screen than the wig she wore at the end of last season (sorry, hair department).

Let's Talk Animation

CGI-wise, the dragons and direwolves looked wonderful, but the King's Landing shot from the Hand's Tower wasn't as great. The wide shots of the North and the eastern steppes were beautiful. The intro showed Dragonstone, which looked good, but not much else changed. I think it would be cool to show the location of the armies once they're on the field, because outside of King's Landing, there isn't much action within cities in the second season.

[Kaitscralt]

Wow, I really loved this episode. I didn't mind Craster, or LF/Cersei. I did however feel the scene between Daenerys and

Rhakaro was meant to imply attraction, which bothered me, but many others here don't see it that way. Ser Dontos' weird American armor was a bit distracting. Everything else I loved.

I really liked how much Bran resembled short-hair Arya when looking at the reflection in the water. Another nod to the casting.

It is too bad the Stannis stuff was rushed, because I am just delighted by how he and Davos are being portrayed by their actors. A+ stuff. I couldn't stop laughing during the writing of the letter. If they continue to emphasize the subtle comedic touches given to Stannis in the novels, he will totally own Season 2.

The ending scene with the bastards cutting to Gendry and Arya was perfect. Gendry looks bad-ass. I read a review that the end of the episode didn't deliver enough of a punch, not sure how anyone thought that.

Also, a few people seem to have missed that the kid washing the ground was a little bird for Varys.

[Kaitscralt]

Also, I haven't rewatched yet, but I disagree with a lot of people that it was TVJoffrey that gave the order to kill the bastards. When he told Cersei he heard a nasty rumor, it didn't come off to me as a belief he had subscribed to -- he was just rubbing more dirt in his moms face. After their confrontation, I think Cersei gave the order to Janos. Just my take on it, not sure if it will matter one way or the other since they're both "villains."

[Ferrum Aeternum]

Not a perfect episode, but a very good start to the season (noticeably better in my opinion than last season's opener).

Highlights:

- The Robb/Jaime scene may go down as one of my favorites in the entire series when it's all said and done. Masterful work by both actors and tension wound tight as a bowstring thanks in no small part to the dramatic musical cues and teaser camera shots leading up to Grey Wind's reveal. As for Grey Wind himself...wow is all I can say. Definitely fits the role of the larger-than-life terror of the battlefield.

- Stannis, Mel and Davos, three of my favorite characters in the books, were brought to life on screen largely as I'd envisioned them thanks to considerable screen presence from all three actors involved. Dillane in particular captures the brooding, harsh badassery of Stannis perfectly as far as I'm concerned.

- Jack Gleeson continues to shine as Joffrey. I felt that he carried both his scenes, especially the opener which I found otherwise disjointed and clumsy in execution; not the actors' fault, just an odd scene for me.

- The small council scene was very entertaining. Tyrion's barbs, Cersei's room-clearing fit of anger and Varys's reaction to said fit all had me smiling. :D

- Speaking of Cersei, I'll give Lena Headey the "most improved" award through one episode of this season. She owned it in the small council and LF scenes and played the Joff scene with a good deal of nuance given the show's changes in that dynamic. Also, Tyrion wasn't lying - she does look gorgeous. Pretty amazing what a decent wig can do. :P

- The final few minutes were gut wrenching. The changes I can live with, especially Slynt killing Barra (do you doubt that book Slynt would have hesitated for a second before doing the same? Didn't think so).

- Visual effects were largely stunning and all superior to anything presented last season. The overhead shot of the Red Waste was breathtaking.

- A stirring, dark soundtrack fit the tone of the episode very well, especially during the burning of the gods and the culling of the bastards.

Lowlights:

- As mentioned, the opening scene just felt a bit rushed and jumbled. Not bad overall thanks to the performances, but I expected more. Dontos was as I pictured him but the actor seemed to undersell it; I'll expect better from him later on. Oh and - pet peeve - I'm sick and damn tired of certain characters never getting their names used in-scene. I guarantee there are plenty of non-book readers who still had no idea who Tommen and Myrcella were after that scene.

- Cressen having no backstory just flat out doesn't make sense to me. There was ample opportunity in his conversations with Davos to drop one or two simple lines referencing his past with Stannis and the Baratheons that would've heightened the impact of his death.

The Rest:

- Dany's bit was fine, and fit the tone set in the books well. Drogon was marvelously rendered (hats off again to the special effects folks) The scene with Rakharo was nice enough but felt forced, almost like it's setting up some tragic event in a later episode. Hmm....

- Bran's brief scenes were good. I was pleased to see that the warging sequence was pretty much exactly what I'd pictured from the books.

- The NW visit to Craster's Keep was...well, OK. Craster wasn't exactly what I expected looks-wise but the actor did an excellent job being a sleazeball and delivering those biting lines. Nice to see Gilly as well, albeit briefly. Dolorous Edd was cool. Mormont's dressing down of Jon was probably my favorite part of this sequence. In all, solid all around.

- LF/Cersei - I thought this scene was fine (mostly thanks to Headey's commanding performance). Obviously it undercuts LF's character in the show but in this regard the damage was already done with that utterly ridiculous monologue in Episode 7 last season. At this point it seems as though show-LF isn't half as clever as he thinks he is, an impression I never got in the books. Oh well. Not nearly enough to detract from this episode's strengths.

[teemo]

It's just strange that the first time Cersei talks to LF in aCoK it's too praise him in the small council for his sneaky idea of sending out ravens saying that Shireen is the product of Selyse/Patchface. In the show it's Cersei showing him that "power is power" and pretend to almost have his throat slit. OK. Now I get how POWER IS POWER OMG KOOL!!

[Morrigan]

Ahhh...I wasn't privy to that b-t-s info. I remember, now, Pycelle saying it marked the end of summer at the Small Council. The only time I remember reading about one was at the end of ADwD which led me to my conclusion/confusion. I need to watch more and enjoy it for what it is rather than nitpicking about book details I guess. Overall, it was a good start to the season.

End of summer = start of autumn, not the start of winter. You know, there are more than 2 seasons. ;)

• the fact that the Hound fought in Joff's tourney irks me. It's completely opposite his charecter.

I disagree. It was Joffrey's name day tourney. Sandor is Joffrey's dog. If King Joffrey says, "Dog, kick ass in my tourney!", Sandor will only say, "yes, Your Grace".

• why was Crastor paying so much attention to Jon? That scene was really wonky for me. Especially how Mormont pushed Jon up against the wall afterwards...

Because Jon opened his mouth and was out of line (according to Craster). Mormont tried to teach Jon a lesson about that. I don't see the problem with that scene at all. And I thought I was a nerdraging nitpicker! But I had very few problems with this episode, when I was expecting to have many. Go figure.

Shae in the Hand's Tower?

Tyrion taking Shae straight to the tower seems a rather unfortunate choice. Are they really going to try to force the tension of his hiding her directly into his room? It's going to be hard to convince the audience that guards can't just march into his tower at any time and find her there. Perhaps they're taking that entire chunk of story (a pretty significant part of Tyrion's story in Books 2 and 3) and changing it a bit, giving Shae a more vital role. Not something I would agree with, but I'm willing to see if it works.

I wonder about that too. If Shae is in the Tower, then Tyrion has no reason to go to that other brothel (Chataya's in the book, Ros's in the TV show..??) as a cover-up for visiting Shae through the secret tunnels. That means no Cersei discovering Alayaya Ros and having her beaten in front of Tyrion. But we know that they kept the "you will pay for this, your joys will turn to ashes in your mouth" etc. line. So obviously they'll do something about all that. Not sure what yet. Maybe in episode 2 Tyrion decides that keeping Shae in the tower is too dangerous and relocates her...? *shrugs*

Deaths to All Stag Bastards

The sex scene was so preposterous everyone at my viewing party just burst out laughing at once.

I... what... your friends/family burst out laughing at the massacre of children, including the murder of an infant? I'm sorry but this says more about you than the creators of the show...