[Book Spoilers] EP201 Discussion

[Tywin's bastard]

do we think this season will end with the RW?? that's a WHOLE lot of book to pack into 12 (is it ONLY 12??) episodes.

No, RW seems like a good thing to have late in the third season. It's roughly halfway into ASOS.

Each season is 10 episodes and ASOS will span two seasons (with the odd things being put into this one and perhaps the fifth)

[Sasha Steelsong]

It did happen off-screen, and not at one massive purge. But it worked for the show.

Actually I got the impression even in the book that it was a massive purge in so much as it was possible. Cersei basically sent people after every bastard of Robert's she could get her hands on and even sent people after Gendry. The kids may have not died at the same moment but she certainly made an effort to exterminate them all.

[Happy Ent]

I just hope with all of the combining, they don't rush the Battle of the Bywater.

Congratulations on the best misspellings of this thread.

Belladonna Took, seeing a bunch of Proudfoots Proudfeet crossing Bywater Bridge: “Those are brave Hobbits.”

Bungo Baggins, taking out his battlefork, “Let’s eat them.”

ETA: And welcome to the boards!

[Blangadanger]

It sounds like a lot of people haven't listened to the commentaries included in Season 1, since GRRM mentions Jhogo is the guy who gets his throat ripped out by Drogo. He says it's one of the places where his original story and the HBO story diverges and will have to be resolved later (assuming the HBO story gets there). For now I think HBO-Rakharo is taking care of both their roles from the book (since they do a lot together anyway).

I'm not sure why so many book readers seem to think that Joffrey ordered the deaths of the bastards. Beside the fact that you should already know the truth from the books, Joffrey in the tv show seems bewildered that such rumors of bastards exist. Given that to acknowledge their existence would mean acknowledging that his birthright for the kingdom is false, I doubt he actually believes the rumors to be true. If they were true, it's doubtful he would keep anyone alive that knew the truth, including his mother. Furthermore, Janos Slynt says that it's on orders of someone who doesn't care about the Master of Coin's house, which is not only a direct reference to the Cersei/LF confrontation, but something slightly ambiguous and not related to Joffrey. If it was Joffrey doing the deed, I'm guessing he would probably want to do it in full public view (he is stupid and brash after all), or have Slynt declare it as the King's Justice for spreading false lies.

[Hot Pie Guy]

^^ its already been confirmed by ppl who have seen the first few episodes already, it was Joffrey who sent the gold cloaks after the bastards. Unless there is some plot twist later in the season which changes this.

Hope thats not a spoiler, just wanted to clear that up

[Brewmaster]

I will be so unhappy if they cut the Reed twins.

I was thinking with the dreams last episode and in season previews that they are probably cutting the Reeds and really I think I'm OK with it. I think they need to accelerate Bran's Greenseer "training" and will give him all the Green Dreams. Honestly that makes some sense, especially considering that many characters are going to need to be cut because of screen time. More so now than ever, as there are few main characters in the same location for the next number of books. Bran will be given Jojen's relevent dreams to emphasize what he is. On the trip North Osha takes Bran and, as others have suggested, perhaps Luwin lives and goes with Rickon or some nameless servant takes him.

What I would probably do instead is to have Osha take both boys North. Skagos is dead-East of the Wall anyway. You can leave the group of Bran, Rickon, Hodor, Osha intact from the crypts to the Wall. Once they reach the wall, Coldhands takes Bran and Hodor to the One Eyed Crow and Osha goes East to Skagos with Rickon. That's how I would handle it anyway. It doesn't make sense for Osha to go all the way to the Children of the Forest cave, and Rickon needs to get to Skagos, but it does make sense to have somebody with Bran that has gotten more screen time than the Reeds are likely to have.

The Reeds are great in the books, mostly for their stories of Harrenhall and insight into the Stark family history. I don't think they are necessary to the show, though.

[Ran]

Blang,

No, it's Mago who gets his throat ripped out on the show. Jhogo=Rakharo on the show, a name they changed early in liming because they thought it was too similar to Drogo. Jhogo is alive and well as of ADwD

[Milgod morghulis]

It sounds like a lot of people haven't listened to the commentaries included in Season 1, since GRRM mentions Jhogo is the guy who gets his throat ripped out by Drogo. He says it's one of the places where his original story and the HBO story diverges and will have to be resolved later (assuming the HBO story gets there). For now I think HBO-Rakharo is taking care of both their roles from the book (since they do a lot together anyway).

I'm not sure why so many book readers seem to think that Joffrey ordered the deaths of the bastards. Beside the fact that you should already know the truth from the books, Joffrey in the tv show seems bewildered that such rumors of bastards exist. Given that to acknowledge their existence would mean acknowledging that his birthright for the kingdom is false, I doubt he actually believes the rumors to be true. If they were true, it's doubtful he would keep anyone alive that knew the truth, including his mother. Furthermore, Janos Slynt says that it's on orders of someone who doesn't care about the Master of Coin's house, which is not only a direct reference to the Cersei/LF confrontation, but something slightly ambiguous and not related to Joffrey. If it was Joffrey doing the deed, I'm guessing he would probably want to do it in full public view (he is stupid and brash after all), or have Slynt declare it as the King's Justice for spreading false lies.

Why?

[DannySpud]

Why do people think Joff ordered the killings? I thought it was pretty clear that Cersei did it.

[teemo]

Why do people think Joff ordered the killings? I thought it was pretty clear that Cersei did it.

Apparently the next few episodes make it clear that Joff did it.

[Hot Pie Guy]

Episode 2 confirms it.

[Celeste Greyjoy]

I was pretty amazed with the first episode of the season. Looking forward to the Jon PoV scenes. :>

[DannySpud]

Apparently the next few episodes make it clear that Joff did it.

Episode 2 confirms it.

Yeah I know, I've seen it. But people were saying it was unclear or that Joff did it before the second episode. I was wondering what I missed in all three viewings of the first episode.

[Harimad]

Why in the world would you even begin to think that they are cutting characters arbitrarily? That makes no sense whatsoever.

Futhermore they do have GRRM as a consultant, and he has told them parts of how the story ends, so they aren't as ignorant about the story as you or I.

I guess I didn't phrase that the way I meant to. I just meant there has been a lot of speculation about cutting the Reed twins/Blackfish/whoever and I think some of those would be mistakes. I do know that GRRM is consulting and that the show will most likely diverge from the books/has diverged.

You are entirely correct in my ignorance compared to the show's creators and GRRM, however!

I was merely meaning to state (in my quite humble opinion) that we haven't seen/heard mention of certain characters that I at least thought were important to the plot.

It is very early yet in season 2, however, and I'm quite optimistic about the way it will go!

[Harimad]

I was thinking with the dreams last episode and in season previews that they are probably cutting the Reeds and really I think I'm OK with it. I think they need to accelerate Bran's Greenseer "training" and will give him all the Green Dreams. Honestly that makes some sense, especially considering that many characters are going to need to be cut because of screen time. More so now than ever, as there are few main characters in the same location for the next number of books. Bran will be given Jojen's relevent dreams to emphasize what he is. On the trip North Osha takes Bran and, as others have suggested, perhaps Luwin lives and goes with Rickon or some nameless servant takes him.

What I would probably do instead is to have Osha take both boys North. Skagos is dead-East of the Wall anyway. You can leave the group of Bran, Rickon, Hodor, Osha intact from the crypts to the Wall. Once they reach the wall, Coldhands takes Bran and Hodor to the One Eyed Crow and Osha goes East to Skagos with Rickon. That's how I would handle it anyway. It doesn't make sense for Osha to go all the way to the Children of the Forest cave, and Rickon needs to get to Skagos, but it does make sense to have somebody with Bran that has gotten more screen time than the Reeds are likely to have.

The Reeds are great in the books, mostly for their stories of Harrenhall and insight into the Stark family history. I don't think they are necessary to the show, though.

Oh i definitely agree that the show can go on and the plot can work without the Reeds, i was just rather fond of them in the books!!

I think the possibility of Luwin staying alive (which someone suggested earlier) and going with one or the other is a way they can definitely make it work, but in that case Luwin's views on the magic of the CotF and the green dreams would have to change--also highly possible.

the one problem with Hodor and bran going off alone is, to me, the likelihood of their survival until they meet up with Coldhands. The reeds seemed to be the ones who knew the way, were the hunters, etc. etc.

but, once again, all of this can be tweaked to make it work! RIP the Reeds I guess!

[Harimad]

I was thinking with the dreams last episode and in season previews that they are probably cutting the Reeds and really I think I'm OK with it. I think they need to accelerate Bran's Greenseer "training" and will give him all the Green Dreams. Honestly that makes some sense, especially considering that many characters are going to need to be cut because of screen time. More so now than ever, as there are few main characters in the same location for the next number of books. Bran will be given Jojen's relevent dreams to emphasize what he is. On the trip North Osha takes Bran and, as others have suggested, perhaps Luwin lives and goes with Rickon or some nameless servant takes him.

What I would probably do instead is to have Osha take both boys North. Skagos is dead-East of the Wall anyway. You can leave the group of Bran, Rickon, Hodor, Osha intact from the crypts to the Wall. Once they reach the wall, Coldhands takes Bran and Hodor to the One Eyed Crow and Osha goes East to Skagos with Rickon. That's how I would handle it anyway. It doesn't make sense for Osha to go all the way to the Children of the Forest cave, and Rickon needs to get to Skagos, but it does make sense to have somebody with Bran that has gotten more screen time than the Reeds are likely to have.

The Reeds are great in the books, mostly for their stories of Harrenhall and insight into the Stark family history. I don't think they are necessary to the show, though.

Oh i definitely agree that the show can go on and the plot can work without the Reeds, i was just rather fond of them in the books!!

I think the possibility of Luwin staying alive (which someone suggested earlier) and going with one or the other is a way they can definitely make it work, but in that case Luwin's views on the magic of the CotF and the green dreams would have to change--also highly possible.

the one problem with Hodor and bran going off alone is, to me, the likelihood of their survival until they meet up with Coldhands. The reeds seemed to be the ones who knew the way, were the hunters, etc. etc.

but, once again, all of this can be tweaked to make it work! RIP the Reeds I guess!

[tearloch]

Oh i definitely agree that the show can go on and the plot can work without the Reeds, i was just rather fond of them in the books!! I think the possibility of Luwin staying alive (which someone suggested earlier) and going with one or the other is a way they can definitely make it work, but in that case Luwin's views on the magic of the CotF and the green dreams would have to change--also highly possible. the one problem with Hodor and bran going off alone is, to me, the likelihood of their survival until they meet up with Coldhands. The reeds seemed to be the ones who knew the way, were the hunters, etc. etc. but, once again, all of this can be tweaked to make it work! RIP the Reeds I guess!

I think Osha has to go with Bran. She knows the North. She can take care of her self. She has knowledge and belief in the old gods. She fits the bill nicely. Whoever goes with Rickon has to be insignificant in the grand scheme, and in the end, if Osha does have a big purpose in the story, then there has to be a reunion of Bran and Rickon's parties.....

[Auska]

One argument for the Reeds (other than being awesome) is that child actors are cheaper… :)

[Sasha Steelsong]

While I hate to lose them I think they can work around the Reeds like has been suggested above.

1) Bran will have a little more natural affinity for his powers so he doesn't need to be coached as much (hence no need for jojen)

2) Osha will take Bran beyond the wall instead of the Reeds (again no need for Jojen and Meera - though how they will tell the KOTLT I don't know).

3) Lewin will be part of the party when they escape/hide in the crypts and take Rickon into hiding - he could tell the KOTLT story I suppose before they spilt up if the show keeps it, plus help prove who Rickon is on the other end when it is finally known that Theon didn't kill them. They could still decide to split up at the Winterfell weirwood so Wex can see.

[Brewmaster]

I think Osha has to go with Bran. She knows the North. She can take care of her self. She has knowledge and belief in the old gods. She fits the bill nicely. Whoever goes with Rickon has to be insignificant in the grand scheme, and in the end, if Osha does have a big purpose in the story, then there has to be a reunion of Bran and Rickon's parties.....

Like I said, I'd keep them together all the way up until the wall, then send Osha east to Skagos with Rickon. Bran doesn't need Osha once he crosses the wall. Coldhands will be his guide. And, depending on how long they choose to make that bit...there were only 2 chapters getting from the wall to the cave in ADWD.

I get why Bran and Rickon went seperate ways, from Winterfell and assuming things unfold as we expect in the books, I think its key that Bran end up with Bloodraven and Rickon end up on Skagos. But, I don't see any reason that they have to be separated on the road North. Keep 'em together, then split up at the Wall.

I have no special insight and I kind of think that they won't keep them all together, since we've seen so little of Rickon, but that's what I would do.