[Book Spoilers] EP201 Discussion

[Auska]

Re: realistic wolves.

It's not quite sufficient to just blow up actual wolves. The problem is that weight increases faster than size – think what happens to the volume of a 1x1x1 cube when you double its surfaces! If you took a regular wolf and doubled it in size, the result would likely be 3-4 times heavier, if not more. This means that its legs need to be considerably more muscular.

That said, I really didn't have a problem with it. Grey Wind looked great.

(Sorry if this was posted, I've had problems with CloudFlare redirects all day :( )

[Drogon's Personal Trainer]

Blang,

No, it's Mago who gets his throat ripped out on the show. Jhogo=Rakharo on the show, a name they changed early in liming because they thought it was too similar to Drogo. Jhogo is alive and well as of ADwD

As is Rakharo.... But I agree - I think they've combined one or two blood riders to ease confusion for viewers. Heck - I even got confused myself at times in the books between Aggo, Jhogo and Rakharo ...

[Drogon's Personal Trainer]

do we think this season will end with the RW?? that's a WHOLE lot of book to pack into 12 (is it ONLY 12??) episodes.

Just my two-penn'orth, but NO. I think it's impossible. We know that Episode 9 is going to be Blackwater, so there is no way on the Seven's green earth that they can handle all part one and a third of part two of Swords in one episode. Fingers crossed for a series 3 and 4, and if what we've read from other sources is correct and they split Swords between two seasons, I could see them ending a future Season 3 with the RW. The non-book readers would then avidly tune in to Series 4 to see if vengeance can be wreaked on the perpetrators.

[Drogon's Personal Trainer]

There should be a producer who does nothing but remind the writers that you can't have a scene with Hodor without him saying Hodor at least once

Yep - I was wondering if he'd forgot his lines.... ;)

[Morrigan]

Yes. Spoiler for episode 2 (is this even a thing?):

http://29.media.tumb...9h4heo1_500.jpg

Whaaa? That sucks.

Poor Shireen. I guess GRRM had no grand plans for her then...

FYI - We haven't actually seen any footage shot in Iceland in the show yet. All the stuff around Craster's Keep was shot in Northern Ireland. We won't see Iceland footage until middle of the season, probably.

Really? I thought that overhead shot of a sub-arctic wasteland was definitely Iceland. Guess either Northern Ireland is colder than I thought or it's CG, but if the latter, it's a pretty good CG.

[teemo]

I think no Reeds is kind of a travesty, tbh. I loved the fact that Ned built up such a close relationship with Howland Reed and that the crannogmen, who are very sneaky and useful allies, are so loyal to the Starks. Bran was so fascinated by them and wanted to hear every little thing they had to say, and I found his respect for them a great reflection of his character - his fascination with magic and dreams and things beyond the Wall, AND the similarities he shares with his father - respect for all sorts of people and Lords. Not to mention, Jojen could have looked really cool on HBO. Everyone would be like, "wow, this kid is interesting." Plus, Meera and Jojen were vital in leading Bran beyond the Wall.

Of course, they are not necessary. I can see plenty of ways they can get around casting them and still make the story work. It seems odd that Osha & Hodor are enough to be able to get Bran where he needs to be, but hey, Osha is pretty sharp, especially TV Osha. It's not the same and it sucks, but I definitely see how they can successfully work around it.

[Chise]

Rewatched episode today, and the "bastard killing" still bothers the hell outta me!

Not the actual ...killing.. (hey, they hadda find a space for a Ros scene somewhere, didn't they?), but the fact series writes it as Joff's idea

My biggest problem - WHY?

Cersei having random Baratheon bastards killed left and right in book made sense [very warped, but sense nonetheless], but why would the lil prick want them dead? To 'avenge' his mother's honor? (u know, after he more or less just told her to fuck off), or he found a few spare silver stags behind the couch and just felt like havin random murders?

[DannySpud]

Just my two-penn'orth, but NO. I think it's impossible. We know that Episode 9 is going to be Blackwater, so there is no way on the Seven's green earth that they can handle all part one and a third of part two of Swords in one episode. Fingers crossed for a series 3 and 4, and if what we've read from other sources is correct and they split Swords between two seasons, I could see them ending a future Season 3 with the RW. The non-book readers would then avidly tune in to Series 4 to see if vengeance can be wreaked on the perpetrators.

IMO RW should be episode 6 or 7 of season 3 (assuming a 10 episode season) to give characters time to react to it. And give the audience time to fully accept the deaths. Then last shot of episode 10 will be of Lady Stoneheart's face for a total WTF?! moment to end the series.

ETA

Rewatched episode today, and the "bastard killing" still bothers the hell outta me!

Not the actual ...killing.. (hey, they hadda find a space for a Ros scene somewhere, didn't they?), but the fact series writes it as Joff's idea

My biggest problem - WHY? Cersei having random Baratheon bastards killed left and right made sense, but why would the lil prick want them dead? To 'avenge' his mother's honor (u know, after he more or less just told her to fuck off), or he found a few spare silver stags behind the couch and just felt like havin random murders?

Are you getting that from just the first episode?

[Ikurai]

Hello guys! I am new to this forum! In fact, this is my first post. However, seeing that this isn't an introduction forum, I will jump straight into the topic. I know I am new here and I would appreciate it if someone would let me know when I say/do something wrong. I am not rude, in general, but am rather opinionated. Hope I don't step on anyone's toes on the first day!

Ok, so about the episode. Two things struck me in general - as I'm sure it struck everyone else who watched it. Namely, the Littlefinger/Cersei scene and the killing of all the bastards. Obviously, it deviated a little from the books here - however I wonder if it did so for a reason.

We know that the producers of the TV series have had chats with Martin and know roughly how the series ends. Did they perhaps use these small deviations as character-building exercises from the very beginning as they don't have the luxury of a 100 page POV in the sixth book revealing a new side to a character?

The Littlefinger/Cersei scene has been talked about here a lot. A lot of people feel it deviates considerably from how LF actually behaves - cold and calculating. HOWEVER, he only fired at Cersei with a veiled threat AFTER Cersei, quite imprudently, poked at the Catelyn-LF story. We KNOW that LF, despite his cunning and "brilliance", still shows human feelings where Catelyn is concerned. We know from various references in the books that he did love her and it isn't as strange as some people are making it out to be that he lost his temper when Cersei probed at the subject. To be fair, she probably did poke at it to see if he has even a sliver of allegiance to Catelyn left (and through Catelyn - the Starks). Why is it so strange that Petyr made a mistake? We know he duelled with Eddard Stark's older brother (I forget his name, sorry) to win Catelyn's hand. That was not well calculated and might well have resulted in his death. So, despite his qualities, he is prone to make mistakes when she is concerned/involved. Perhaps Martin will reveal a more human side to him later (when dealing with Sansa) and we're just being told that LF isn't always cold and can feel real emotion when certain people are concerned?

Secondly, I thought the killing of all of Robert's bastards was extremely significant. It did happen in the books but they made a point of making it VERY VERY obvious (I cringed when they were killing baby Barra). What possible import could this hold? Well, think about it... We know Robert left no true-born heir. We know Renly dies soon. we know Stannis will probably die at some point as him taking the Iron Throne is a long-shot at best - and he isn't likely to let someone else sit there in peace if he's alive. And from Val's comments about Stannis's daughter's grey scales, we get a premonition that she will die too. All of these are guesses, I totally grant you. But it does leave a possibility that the entire of the Baratheon line will be ended apart from Gendry.

Now assuming the R+L=J theory is correct, and that Jon and Danaerys somehow get on the throne (due to Aegon being a Blackfyre), someone will still need to be the lord of wherever the Baratheons are the Lords of. So, while I don't see gendry becoming a king, I can totally see him being a Lord as the last of the Baratheon line.

So to conclude, a LOT of if's and but's are there but assuming there was a REASON behind the two scenes being added, we may be heading towards a particular ending. They may have been there for just fan-fare, however. Other than this, the episode really was slow at points and really needed a kick in the butt to get it going. I suppose having to introduce so many characters will do that to you. Look forward to a far more riveting season 2.

Ohh btw, I sometimes use caps in my writing. I know they are usually used to scream but I assure you, this is not my intent. I just use it to put stresses on some words - like we do while we actually talk. I will stop f it offends/bothers anyone.

[White Raven]

As Cersei ordered the guards around I was almost expecting something like "turn around, close your eyes... and now... DANCE"

[Chise]

Me again... double-posting and all

Ok, seriously, it can't just be me - is Shae now deliberately written to be a Sand Snake in the future?

Because that woman on the screen is not the ditzy airhead aiming to please her Giant of Lannisted from the books. Between the accent, the rude things she says... and just.. everything! .. the writers are either trolling, or wanna pull a Sand Snake sometime later

[DaveSumm]

Re: Reeds being cut. It does look a lot like this is happening, but there's still one thing to give us hope: Osha, who was probably quite happy and proud to live beyond the wall like most wildlings, was so scared she scaled the wall at great risk to her life. She clearly won't just go back cos some kneeler asks her to. And this is something that didn't need to be emphasised in the first season, but was.

Re: Joffrey enacting the bastard killing. Is this for sure? Or did I miss something? I really have a hard time picturing Joff truly confronting this possibility that he's a child of incest, in the books I just imagine he's in denial........but someone in denial doesn't act on the possibility.......

[Brewmaster]

Re: Joffrey enacting the bastard killing. Is this for sure? Or did I miss something? I really have a hard time picturing Joff truly confronting this possibility that he's a child of incest, in the books I just imagine he's in denial........but someone in denial doesn't act on the possibility.......

Joff doesn't need to consider the fact that he's an incest baby to want to kill Robert's bastards. As plenty of succession wars have shown...as even Cat's insistence against Rob legitimizing Jon shows, bastards can always be a threat to a house/throne, anyway. Joff eliminating Robert's bastards (if he's the one) wouldn't about him being Jaime's son.

[teemo]

Me again... double-posting and all

Ok, seriously, it can't just be me - is Shae now deliberately written to be a Sand Snake in the future?

Because that woman on the screen is not the ditzy airhead aiming to please her Giant of Lannisted from the books. Between the accent, the rude things she says... and just.. everything! .. the writers are either trolling, or wanna pull a Sand Snake sometime later

I was going to mention this earlier and forgot. Who the hell is this "Shae" character??? Aside from being taken from Bronn and being named Shae, she is nothing like the book Shae. In the show she and her past/heritage is mysterious (as we saw from that drinking game), has a foreign accent, has a sharp tongue and tells Tyrion that she'll gouge his eyes out or something, has a very foul mouth ("this place makes me want to fuck." "this place smells of cum."), with not a single "my giant of Lannister" quote or a "m'lord." She is also living in a place right now that she shouldn't even be in. I understand that HBO maybe wanted to make her have more depth, but this is getting so far off-track that I think they may be taking a different route with her altogether.

As far as the bastard killings:

It's been said that the next episode confirms it was done under Joffrey's command.

[Ran]

Why is it so strange that Petyr made a mistake?

That's when he was a 15-year-old boy -- or, I guess, early 20 in the show. Still, a young man, without a lot of experience or maturity. It's 17 years on. He's been a veteran of the court. His star was fixed to Jon Arryn, but he learned to be everyone's friend and no man's enemy, etc.

That one mistake with Brandon, that thwarted love for Catelyn, is a large part of what motivates him to be the man he is. To have him so very easily snap over it -- it's not "teasing" to tell the queen she sleeps with her brother -- is just not something the character, either in the book or the TV show, ought to really do. Not without far more provocation than Cersei acting snooty and superior. People have been snooty and superior to Littlefinger for most of his life -- he lets them, it's part of the game with them, and (as he says in the first season) it's how he operates.

I'm never going to be convinced that it's not a bad scene. It's ham-fisted, and it's not necessary in any way.

[kairparavel]

Patchface isn't mission critical to the current book story, goofy prophetic songs aside. But in the books it seems like he knows something. If he's not cast, then his character is almost a red herring in the book. Not casting Shireen is not the same as not casting Meera and Jojen. So because the book writing isn't done, and George is helping the show runners to sort out and filter stuff, book readers are in effect being spoiled for down the road. For example, regardless of where the Reed children got Bran to in DwD, apparently anyone familiar with Beyond the Wall and the Children of the Forest could have gotten him there. Really? So why wasn't the book written that way? Knowing that ultimately the Reeds don't matter sucks, considering there's still two books to go. And that's just one example.

Part of the enjoyment of this series for the reader is unraveling what matters vs what doesn't. The book adaptation for screen is unraveling it for us - taking out things, changing things, merging things and now altering future events for us, before they've even happened. I'm not overly thrilled about that. That's why straying from the source material (of anything) is problematic and often lacking in satisfaction.

[seeyouintee]

Not having Jojen and Meera is a travesty and is made even more so because it seems arbitrarily left out. I can understand, (and even like) some of the alterations they've made for film or budget constraints, but there really doesn't seem to be any reason not to have them in the story. Also, they have to include Howland... the guy knows the most important secret in the series. How will they compensate for the deep trust and loyalty he shows by sending his own two children to look out for the Starks? Just seems pointless to have excluded them.

[Brewmaster]

Patchface isn't mission critical to the current book story, goofy prophetic songs aside. But in the books it seems like he knows something. If he's not cast, then his character is almost a red herring in the book. Not casting Shireen is not the same as not casting Meera and Jojen. So because the book writing isn't done, and George is helping the show runners to sort out and filter stuff, book readers are in effect being spoiled for down the road. For example, regardless of where the Reed children got Bran to in DwD, apparently anyone familiar with Beyond the Wall and the Children of the Forest could have gotten him there. Really? So why wasn't the book written that way? Knowing that ultimately the Reeds don't matter sucks, considering there's still two books to go. And that's just one example.

Part of the enjoyment of this series for the reader is unraveling what matters vs what doesn't. The book adaptation for screen is unraveling it for us - taking out things, changing things, merging things and now altering future events for us, before they've even happened. I'm not overly thrilled about that. That's why straying from the source material (of anything) is problematic and often lacking in satisfaction.

Nothing that happens in the show has to happen in the book the same way. I think you are reading way too much into things. If the Reeds aren't cast, I suppose you can conclude that neither of them is the Prince who was Promised, or is going to sit on the Iron throne at the end of the series, but did you really think that was going to happen anyway? I would say that any other outcome for them in the books is still just as likely.

The TV show isn't revealing any mysteries ahead of time. Sure anyone could get Bran to Bloodraven, I'm not sure how, exactly, you think this changes anything, or reveals anything. Why was it written that way? Well, for one thing the Reeds give some good Westeros / Stark history lessons to Bran and reveal some good Harrenhall backstory.

[DannySpud]

Patchface isn't mission critical to the current book story, goofy prophetic songs aside. But in the books it seems like he knows something. If he's not cast, then his character is almost a red herring in the book. Not casting Shireen is not the same as not casting Meera and Jojen. So because the book writing isn't done, and George is helping the show runners to sort out and filter stuff, book readers are in effect being spoiled for down the road. For example, regardless of where the Reed children got Bran to in DwD, apparently anyone familiar with Beyond the Wall and the Children of the Forest could have gotten him there. Really? So why wasn't the book written that way? Knowing that ultimately the Reeds don't matter sucks, considering there's still two books to go. And that's just one example.

Part of the enjoyment of this series for the reader is unraveling what matters vs what doesn't. The book adaptation for screen is unraveling it for us - taking out things, changing things, merging things and now altering future events for us, before they've even happened. I'm not overly thrilled about that. That's why straying from the source material (of anything) is problematic and often lacking in satisfaction.

Depends what you mean by "matter". Cleos Frey mattered in a sense, but his function works fine with Alton Lannister instead. If it ever transpires that Patchface is really the counterpart to AA and their ensuing battle devastates Westeros then I assume the writers would work round it with GRRM's help. I personally believe that as long as GRRM can see a way of rewriting it he'll let them change what they need to. He doesn't want to spoil people by omission.

[kairparavel]

Nothing that happens in the show has to happen in the book the same way. I think you are reading way too much into things. If the Reeds aren't cast, I suppose you can conclude that neither of them is the Prince who was Promised, or is going to sit on the Iron throne at the end of the series, but did you really think that was going to happen anyway? I would say that any other outcome for them in the books is still just as likely.

The TV show isn't revealing any mysteries ahead of time. Sure anyone could get Bran to Bloodraven, I'm not sure how, exactly, you think this changes anything, or reveals anything. Why was it written that way? Well, for one thing the Reeds give some good Westeros / Stark history lessons to Bran and reveal some good Harrenhall backstory.

Exactly.

Look, I know they are side helper characters. They will not be revealed to AA reborn or the lost Targ or whatever. But the puzzle being built by the books is being redesigned by changing the pieces in the tv program. That's all. It would be easier to digest if the book series was finished.