[Book Spoilers] EP201 Discussion

[True Northerner]

I think its ok to cut Patchface. He is such a cartoon character and wouldn't fit the show. He's only in the book to serve as Shireen's only friend. His description in the book makes him seem as if he came straight out of Spongebob Squarepants. The show overall tone is darker now so he wouldn't fit, just like all the singing from the singers they cut out from the book.

While Patchface is a fool, he is also a really dark character. I think he would fit in nicely, and am sad he won't be part of the show? Is that for sure? I mean it's only been one episode... he may come in?

[Lady Lilac]

It was a good episode, not the best, but a good way to start off a new season, getting viewers back in the feeling of the Westeros-verse.

A few things I found weird though:

1)No more Cleos Frey and instead they replaced him with a non-blond Lannister.

2)Why did they change Jhogo's name?

3)Shae was in the Tower of the Hand with Tiryon...

And apparently Ros's back, at least she had her clothes on for the entire scene. I'm wondering if she'll replace Chataya from the books.

The scene with Robb and Jamie was awesome though. And Grey Wind. Now that's how to make an entrance XD. I was a bit worried when I first heard the Direwolves will be CGI, but so far looks good.

And I don't think I've ever wanted to cuddle Drogon so much as during that scene with him on Dany's shoulder.

[Ferrum Aeternum]

It didn't "leak" in the technical sense; its open to any US viewers with HBO Go. I was wondering if the second episode thread would be open for those veiwers but apparently not.

It's not on HBO Go in the US.

[Milgod morghulis]

Not sure why they changed Jhogo's name. Unless they killed off a Dothraki called Jhogo in season 1?

[int11]

Not sure why they changed Jhogo's name. Unless they killed off a Dothraki called Jhogo in season 1?

Jhogo sounds very much like Drogo and Drogon, just as Asha sounds like Osha. Don't know if that's the reason, though.

[Ferrum Aeternum]

Not sure why they changed Jhogo's name. Unless they killed off a Dothraki called Jhogo in season 1?

Too similar to Drogo. Easy for a reader but creates unnecessary confusion for viewers.

And actually they didn't change the name, they just left Jhogo out and made Rakharo the primary bloodrider.

[tearloch]

Sorry, I haven't read all the other posts here, but a couple of questions/thoughts/ramblings:

1. So its pretty much confirmed that the wonder twins Reed kids have been axed by HBO, and Osha will be Bran's guide to the power of the Old Gods (in place of JoJen). I get it from a casting POV, but the Reeds were big parts of the next 4 books (well, 3 I guess). This raises several issues. Who will take Rickon when they flee Winterfell? My money is on Maester Luwin surviving, and taking Rickon, only to die off later (like once Davos finds him)..... Hodor has to go with Bran to carry him. Also, how does this play with the introduction of Howland Reed? I had hoped Howland would play an instrumental role in the future the the series, but without his kids building up his intro for 3-4 seasons, how will they introduce him? Or if he is cut as well, who will tell Jon of the truth of his parentage (whoever it may be)?

2. No Blackfish? C'mon! I was really hoping to see the Blackfish in action on the screen. Does this mean all my ramblings about my hopes that the Blackfish is the Hooded Man in Winterfell are dashed? :bang: I guess Davos is #1 on my list now......

3. Dany and her little "moment" with her (renamed?) bloodrider? Are they cutting out Dario in the future? I guess that it makes sense, but I don't like it. Maybe HBO is trying to make Dany more heroic, and Dario would have put a damper on that, being the oh so naughty bad boy type.....

Oh, BTW, I absolutely hate the Lannister soldier armor (mainly in Kings Landing). It looks too samurai for me (would fit Dorne better, IMO).

[Milgod morghulis]

Too similar to Drogo. Easy for a reader but creates unnecessary confusion for viewers.

And actually they didn't change the name, they just left Jhogo out and made Rakharo the primary bloodrider.

If they didn't change the name they made new character take Jhogo's role as he was one of the riders that went looking for civilisation. Obviously Rakharo will be the main bloodrider, that was evident for season 1, but they didn't need to replace him completely.

TV viewers (ones of a good show like this at least) aren't stupid, we can handle similar sounding names.

[boojam]

Oh, BTW, I absolutely hate the Lannister soldier armor (mainly in Kings Landing). It looks too samurai for me (would fit Dorne better, IMO).

That's funny, I like that armor, tho it looks more ornamental than functional.

Always thought the Gold Cloaks had strange uniforms, tho they are passable.

The disgusted Gold Cloak was a great touch.

[Bastard of the White Knife]

While Patchface is a fool, he is also a really dark character. I think he would fit in nicely, and am sad he won't be part of the show? Is that for sure? I mean it's only been one episode... he may come in?

They CAN'T cut out Patchface! They can take my Blackfish, they can pretend the Reed children don't exist, but they cannot cut Patchface! :crying:

[Mauvka]

I'm not sure why everyone is panicking about Dario getting cut. Doesn't he only appear at the end of book 3? I'm sure HBO won't pass up the chance to show Dany's flamboyant lover...esp with the opportunity to contrast him against her political husband.

[Ran]

No discussion of episode 2, please, and no plans to open threads until the TV show airs in the US.

[Harimad]

In the preview for "in the coming weeks" it does look rather like Jojen's greendreams are being rolled into Bran's wolfdreams, and thereby eliminating the Reed children. Not sure what this is going to mean for Bran's storyline after the end of aCoK, when he is making his way north - perhaps they have Osha go with Bran, and some nameless Winterfell retainer go off with Rickon.

I will be so unhappy if they cut the Reed twins.

I have to admit the skipping around between the different areas as well as skipping in the book has me confused.

i just re-read ACOK but of course the beginning is already fuzzy. I agree they don't need all of the lead-up for Jon and the other prepping for the wall/riding through the snow, but since GRRMs timing always kind of throws me for a loop i'm wondering how out of order they're going to be.

do we think this season will end with the RW?? that's a WHOLE lot of book to pack into 12 (is it ONLY 12??) episodes.

[theMountainGoat]

This episode felt awkward, but I think that was always going to be the case. I think they absolutely needed to include something from everyone in this first episode to set the stage, even if that did give some viewers the feeling that it was jumping around too much. I'd expect that to settle down in future episodes.

Nice to see Dragonstone in the opening credits, however the design of it was all wrong. But then none of the artists have gotten anywhere close to depicting it correctly either. Not their fault since George has never really provided an adequate description of the place. At Worldcon last year he spoke about how Dragonstone is a dragon shaped castle created by the magic of the Valyrians who could mould stone like clay. It's not just a castle covered in dragon statues. It IS a stone dragon. But that's a minor detail, not worth being disappointed about.

But there was much to be disappointed with in this episode:

Littlefinger and Cersei

Put me firmly in the camp of hating this scene. I've already posted in the other topic about this so I won't repeat myself here. But those who are trying to defend this scene please explain why this will not completely change the dynamic between these two characters and the way they interact in every scene from now on? Cersei knows that Littlefinger is perfectly aware of who Joffrey's father is. How could she ever trust him again or for that matter allow him to go on breathing at all? Cersei destroys threats and Petyr has now revealed himself to be a considerable threat with no room to doubt it whatsoever. This scene does not make sense, even within the context of the TV show and the different characterisations therein.

Craster

It's not only the way he looks, I have a big problem with the way he talks. It sounds like he was reciting Shakespeare rather than the creepy as fuck wildling he was meant to be. Robert Pugh is a great actor but he has been woefully miscast here. I agree with others who say Craster should have been very much like Lord Frey (have to say I don't recall the physical description of Craster from the books, those who point out he should be well built are probably right but I may have ignored that while reading and imagined someone else anyway, clearly I'm not alone in that), I'll go further and say that David Bradley who played Walder Frey in season one should have been cast as Craster, with someone older cast as Walder Frey, the character is supposed to be in his 90's after all. Maybe Robert Pugh should have then been cast as someone else as well, Wyman Manderly perhaps.

Burning of the Seven

If I hadn't known from the books I don't believe I would have understood what was going on here. Not enough information conveyed in my opinion. Larry Williams and many other non-readers were confused about it and I don't blame them. Just one line about how it was disrespectful to burn the seven and adopt the red god would have cleared that up. While on the subject of Dragonstone I almost wish they had cut Maester Cressen out altogether if they were not going to do his story proper justice.

Those were the worst parts of the episode, before continuing with minor complaints I want to list the good bits that I really enjoyed.

Grey Wind

This was the first properly awesome moment of season two. I think it looked great, a big improvement on the little friendly puppies they used last year. Well worth the effort.

Dontos Hollard

Yes I know they got the coat of arms wrong and I agree he did not appear drunk enough but I did fear they were going to cut the character out completely so I was glad to see him. I think some others who have already written the actor off as bad should hold back their judgement till we see him again. I completely disagree with those that said Sophie Turner was off, she got it just right in my opinion. Also nice to see Lothar Brune get a mention. I expect there are some book readers out there who don't know who Lothar Brune is. I hope he'll get a mention again in the correct place rather than the name being used just because they needed one.

Tyrion

Peter Dinklage was great in every scene as he always is.

Stannis and Davos

I think Liam Cunningham is perfectly cast as Davos, great job. Pity there was no mention of his 'luck' in this episode but I'm sure that will come in a future episode. Stephen Dillane also did a great job as Stannis. The scene where he is making changes to the letter did a perfect job of explaining who this character is and why he is not loved by the people. All the best scenes stick closely to the source material and this one was almost verbatim until we got to the Cressen bit tacked on the end.

Infanticide

I had been wondering what they were going to end this first episode with and I think this was the exact right choice. It definitely makes things clearer to the viewer than it would have been if the goldcloaks had just simply turned up looking for Gendry without having had these scenes first. The ending definitely worked even though it meant we didn't really get to see Arya in this episode. I will be interested to see whether they include the confrontation between Lommy Greenhands and Arry in the next episode, what with Arry not having the wooden sword (after Maisie kept forgetting to pick the wooden sword up during the filming of the Pointy End scene and they ran out of time to go for another reshoot as they lost the light). But then I think the scene from the last episode of season one may have been intended to replace that anyway.

Right then back to the griping:

Daenerys

Not disappointed with Dany at all, just certain details. The horse dying rather than Doreah. I think they should have replaced Doreah with someone else if they want to keep the character around. I guess they can just use any old horse for her when she reaches Yunkai but hopefully it will still be silvery white. As mentioned the 'moment' between Dany and Rakharo, we totally don't need a romance subplot there. Another little detail I didn't like here was the fact that she was not following the direction of the red comet. In fact it looked like they were going in the opposite direction to where the comet was pointing and then sending the riders out and one goes north-east. North-east? I know this is such a minor irrelevant quibble but couldn't they have got the directions right?

Ros and sexposition

This is exactly the kind of scene we don't need in this show. Pointless nudity and gratuitous simulated sex for no reason whatsoever. Ros parroting Littlefinger from the single worst scene of season one just reminded me of how awful that was and soured this scene as well. A double strike of crappiness in one. If the show runners want to avoid being called teenage masturbatory fantasy then stop putting in scenes like this, totally unnecessary.

I disagree with the theory that Ros is taking over for Chataya/Alayaya in the show because if Shae remains in the Red Keep (and I hate that idea too) then there is no need to include those characters at all. Perhaps we will see Shae moved to her manse in episode two and they just did not want to take the time to establish that this episode, but if not then I don't understand how Cersei could be in any doubt as to who Tyrion's whore is, there would be no hiding her. Which brings me on to:

Shae

I still really don't like hbo-Shae. Very unlikeable character. I don't think I will ever understand why she was completely rewritten. Not sure why they even stuck with the same name since it is clearly a totally different character. Ugh.

Or maybe that's the point and we only see book-Shae through Tyrion's eyes and she is lovely and sweet and calls him her Giant of Lannister. But I highly doubt it. This hbo-Shae is challenging, rude, arrogant, petulant, greedy, manipulative and cold. She could never call him her Giant of Lannister and make it be convincing enough that he almost believes it.

Episode length

This episode felt extremely short. I believe the running time was 50 minutes or maybe less. The four advert breaks Sky Atlantic included didn't help at all. Methinks we were spoiled by having just the one advert break during the premier of each episode last year. I hope those extra minutes are going to be taken and used in some of the later episodes where the need a bit more running time. For those who said that all episodes were about that long in season one, no they weren't. Winter is Coming (ep 101) was 62 minutes. Many of the other episodes came in at 55 minutes or so but they were fairly variable in length. The North Remembers was noticeably shorter than any episode of season one.

I know all this sounds like I really disliked the episode, but then I nearly always do on first watch. With each re-watch I will like it a little more, until I make my peace with the changes and accept it. Though I still believe this will rank as my least favourite episode of the show so far.

[Harimad]

While Patchface is a fool, he is also a really dark character. I think he would fit in nicely, and am sad he won't be part of the show? Is that for sure? I mean it's only been one episode... he may come in?

my one problem with them arbitrarily cutting characters (patchface, shireen, blackfish, the reeds etc. etc. etc.) is that with a lot of these characters (edric storm??) we have NO idea what their importance may be later and the only person who knows is GRRM and i'm assuming he's not telling.

Of course, I'm also banking on the fact that we will get up to as many seasons as books (or close enough) if the series gets cut (pray to the seven it doesnt!) i guess it wont matter that they chopped people out.

But since i'm choosing to be optimistic, i really feel like they're going to screw themselves over for later if they cut certain characters. Unless a character is 100% dead, we won't know their importance to the plot until the end...whenever it finally gets here

[Plem]

Anyone else notice that they misspelled Rakharo's name in the subtitles (Rakaro)? Not just once, but every time. Seems weird to me since they would just have to open the book to look up the right spelling. Maybe they officially changed his name for the show - wouldn't surprise me with all the name changes that have been going on lately.

[DannySpud]

Again, to be fair to the writers of the show that is the Dontos crest from the books (Sansa describes it at some point, cba to find the exact scene).

I think Doreah might replace Irri in the weird scene where Irri "pleasures" Dany.

[Tywin's bastard]

my one problem with them arbitrarily cutting characters (patchface, shireen, blackfish, the reeds etc. etc. etc.) is that with a lot of these characters (edric storm??) we have NO idea what their importance may be later and the only person who knows is GRRM and i'm assuming he's not telling.

Of course, I'm also banking on the fact that we will get up to as many seasons as books (or close enough) if the series gets cut (pray to the seven it doesnt!) i guess it wont matter that they chopped people out.

But since i'm choosing to be optimistic, i really feel like they're going to screw themselves over for later if they cut certain characters. Unless a character is 100% dead, we won't know their importance to the plot until the end...whenever it finally gets here

Why in the world would you even begin to think that they are cutting characters arbitrarily? That makes no sense whatsoever.

Futhermore they do have GRRM as a consultant, and he has told them parts of how the story ends, so they aren't as ignorant about the story as you or I.

[tearloch]

I read somewhere that HBO is going to add elements of ASOS to season 2, which I think is only 10 episodes. I don't know what season it'll be in, but I can't wait to see how they do the Red Wedding, and to see Grey Wind's head on Robb's body, which both disturbed and fascinated me. I just hope with all of the combining, they don't rush the Battle of the Bywater.

I didn't think we ever got the image of Grey Wind's head on Robb's body until the next book. I think a lot was implied in the book, but little was shown (I guess due to the POVs involved).

[Leto Atreides]

I just hope with all of the combining, they don't rush the Battle of the Bywater.

For the Shire!!!