Did Cat treat Jon Snow like a dog - or not?

[The hairy bear]

Anyway, we simply come to a fundamental difference of opinion here: I hold all people to a standard of showing love to others, regardless of personal feelings about them. You don't. I don't think there's much more to it than that.

But you are not blaming Catelyn for not loving, let's say, Theon Greyjoy. Or to Jeyne Poole, Beth Cassel or some stable boy.

The fact is, that from all the children living in Winterfell, Jon was the better treated one right after the Stak childs.

What I object to are the arguments in her defense that rely on approving of her treatment of Jon. Jon was a bastard and a threat to her children, Jon's presence was an insult to her, she had no obligation to him. No, I don't agree that these are 'very good reasons,' just regular reasons. But if I did agree with her reasons, if I did think she was justified, well, I wouldn't think she was very grey. You're saying people can't accept Cat's greyness, but I feel like you're the one denying it.

But the only thing that Cat did was not acting as a mother figure to a boy that wasn't hers. Jon wanted Cat loving him as her own children, but Cat didn't. How that can be considered mistreatment, I fail to understand.

Jon had servants caring for all his needs, and had maesters and masters-at-arms caring for his education. Why it had to be Cat the one who acted as Jon's mother figure? Why do you ask this from a woman that was insulted for this bastard's presence in her houshold? Wouldn't it be easier if this role was filled by Old Nan, Septa Mordane, or any of the female servants at Winterfell?

[OnionAhaiReborn]

But the only thing that Cat did was not acting as a mother figure to a boy that wasn't hers. Jon want Cat loving him as her own children, but Cat doesn't. How that can be considered mistreatment, I fail to understand.

Jon had servants caring for all his needs, and had maesters and masters-at-arms caring for his education. Why it had to be Cat the one who acted as Jon's mother figure? Why do you ask this from a woman that was insulted for this bastard's presence in her houshold? Wouldn't it be easier if this role was filled by Old Nan, Septa Mordane, or any of the female servants at Winterfell?

Right. You are saying Cat was justified, was not wrong, and is not made a greyer character by her relationship with Jon. Which is why I directed my point @Lyanna Stark, who was saying Cat was justified in her treatment of Jon, while also criticizing people for being unwilling to accept Cat's greyness. But if Cat wasn't wrong, where is the greyness?

[Ran]

There's also a difference between approving and not disapproving. I don't disapprove of Cat's behavior. I don't approve it, either. I believe it's perfectly understandable behavior, however, and I believe it's wrong for people to paint it as irrational or extraordinarily "mean". There are very modern expectations being put on Catelyn that are not relevant to the narrative.

[Balintos]

But you are not blaming Catelyn for not loving, let's say, Theon Greyjoy. Or to Jeyne Poole, Beth Cassel or some stable boy.

I think she likes more and treats better Theon or Jeyne than Jon. I don't have any proof.

[Jayce]

There are very modern expectations being put on Catelyn that are not relevant to the narrative.

This may not wholly be on topic, but this statement is true for a lot more then this thread.

[11th Heaven]

In 2012, if a man had an affair and took the resulting illegitimate child home to his wife, telling her to just accept it and refusing to say a word of the child's mother, I can't imagine many people considering the wife "unreasonable" for wanting a quick divorce. Catelyn obviously can't do this, and yet we should just expect her to suck it up and treat the child as if it's her own?

I don't fault Catelyn for her attitude towards Jon, but I can't fault Jon, because of course none of this is his fault. I'm inclined to fault Ned, but depending on Jon's parentage it's unclear whether such secrecy was appropriate or not.

I think it's a case of two (maybe three) people forced into shitty circumstances by factors beyond their control.

[FuzzyJAM]

But you are not blaming Catelyn for not loving, let's say, Theon Greyjoy. Or to Jeyne Poole, Beth Cassel or some stable boy.

No one has made a topic about their relationship with Cat. Of course I hold her to the same standard in dealing with them as I do with everyone dealing with everyone else.

I don't think we know enough to compare her impact on the lives of other children with her impact on Jon.

[a free shadow]

Ned has stonewalled her....where is [her anger] gonna go?

...

Even though Cat chose being cold and distancing herself from Jon instead of causing all the issues she had every right to, people still insist she should have mothered Jon...

At the stonewall, obviously. If the matter is so important to you, you stand up and you fight. But she felt uncomfortable doing so :dunno: Ned would have never threatened her or hurt her, so her choice was based on preference, on easiness of the action, not on the need.

Why all this "mothered"? She simply could have made Ned to flash out some plan as to what is Jon to do with his life, so she herself would feel more at ease with his "claims" on Winterfell. She could have talked to him once in a while. She could have just stop making him quilty for being alive.

It was Eddard's call, and so it was Eddard's responsibility.

Catelyn made a separate choice on her own. If you would argue circumstances defy everything though... "Can a man be brave, if he's afraid?" "That is the only time a man can be brave".

Tbh, you can probably put me down as not a good person cos if my husband brought home a child he had with another woman while cheating on me, there is no way in hell I'd meekly say "Yes, I'll take care of him/her", and I live in a far more openminded society than Westeros.

Would you threat your husband kindly and channel your anger on the child? Well, personal things probably are not the topic though. :dunno:

[Lummel]

...Why all this "mothered"? She simply could have made Ned to flash out some plan as to what is Jon to do with his life, so she herself would feel more at ease with his "claims" on Winterfell. She could have talked to him once in a while. She could have just stop making him quilty for being alive...

The Ned seems to have blocked attempts to settle Jon's future, I wonder if he knew something mysterious about Jon's parentage that influenced his actions.

Don't see how talking to Jon would have help, Jon as a rule doesn't seem to have a problem with the lack of an immediate mother figure I don't recall any jelously towards in his POV towards his Stark kin on account of them having a mother.

She says 'it should have been you' once. I don't think this made Jon feel guilty for being able to walk when Bran was crippled and in a coma, his pain at that moment was at not being able to bid a fond farewell to someone he loved wasn't it? Jon is conscious of being bastard but does he regret being born?

[PatrickStormborn]

Rather than looking at contributing factors that make a person behave badly, I rather ignore them and ask the question:

"How would a good person act in such as situation?"

And a good person would take an innocent child in and give it the mother figure it so obviously craves and requires for its psychological development, she would treat it as her own and be a loving mom to him.

A person looking after their own interests first, however, would not do this, but would see him as a threat, an insult to her honor, whatever.

The point is, she puts her own interests before the interests of the child, and that makes her a bad person in my eyes.

This is the simple way in which I view the world, and it works for me.

Catelyn loves her children. She has no obligation to "mother" another woman's child. That responsibility lies with Ned.

Apart from one instance, I can't find any evidence in the text that Catelyn was ever nasty to Jon. She let him sit at the table with her trueborn children, and she never stopped them from interacting with him.

[a free shadow]

The Ned seems to have blocked attempts to settle Jon's future, I wonder if he knew something mysterious about Jon's parentage that influenced his actions.

Don't see how talking to Jon would have help, Jon as a rule doesn't seem to have a problem with the lack of an immediate mother figure I don't recall any jelously towards in his POV towards his Stark kin on account of them having a mother.

She says 'it should have been you' once. I don't think this made Jon feel guilty for being able to walk when Bran was crippled and in a coma, his pain at that moment was at not being able to bid a fond farewell to someone he loved wasn't it? Jon is conscious of being bastard but does he regret being born?

Do you really wonder? Please expand what great secret plans might Ned have had? A coronation perhaps?

The fact is that when Catelyn told Ned Jon goes away as soon as Ned leaves, he jumped at the chance to have him on the Wall.

She could have demanded any plans to be made earlier. She would have been happier herself. That is one way she could have dealt with her anger, not the only one though. But all of them involve fighting the stronger person (Ned) and not the weaker one (Jon). Again, she chose to be passive aggresive, an easier thing to do.

'Mother figure" again. Talking to a person, if you do not call him "son", is not an action showing you two to be exceptionaly close. Jon showed no jelousy of her as a mother, because that wasn't the problem. He was not excluded as "a bad kid", he was threated as if his very existance is wrong.

I can't tell if Jon ever regretted being born, but he clearly was led to think his very presence is a wrong thing. That certainly made him unhappier.

[11th Heaven]

At the stonewall, obviously. If the matter is so important to you, you stand up and you fight. But she felt uncomfortable doing so :dunno: Ned would have never threatened her or hurt her, so her choice was based on preference, on easiness of the action, not on the need.

I think that's very unfair -

It had taken her a fortnight to marshal her courage, but finally, in bed one night, Catelyn had asked her husband the truth of it, asked him to his face. That was the only time in all their years that Ned had ever frightened her. "Never ask me about Jon," he said, cold as ice. "He is my blood, and that is all you need to know. And now I will learn where you heard that name, my lady."

This is a world where Catelyn has no rights - Ned would certainly be within his to beat her black and blue. This fact in addition to the above passage make it abundantly clear that Catelyn is in no postion to "stand up and fight".

Catelyn made a separate choice on her own. If you would argue circumstances defy everything though... "Can a man be brave, if he's afraid?" "That is the only time a man can be brave".

Well yes, Catelyn could have proved that she was a moral saint. But if her failure to do so means that she's a bad person, then I'm a bad person, so are you, so is almost everyone. You can be a good person without being perfect.

[Thunderfist]

I think that Catelyn treated Jon in the manner that one would expect her to treat him given the situation. Like several people have said, it´s not her job to take care of Ned´s bastard. Besides, alot of shit has gone down in the Westerosi past when trueborns and bastards have fought for various thrones and titles

[BabyMeraxes]

Any problems I might have with Catelyn (and these are minor problems, because I really enjoy reading about Catelyn) revolve around her treatment of Jon. It's obvious she doesn't like him, and it's obvious that her dislike is staunch, and, let's be honest, a little petty. From my perspective, while Catelyn is certainly pissed that Jon presence is a constant reminder of Ned's infidelity, her real problem is that Jon's existence challenges her kids' birthright. HOWEVER, you're watching your kids grow-up with Jon, and you can plainly see they love him like a brother, and that he reciprocates that love. The people whose protection you're concerned about are clearly not threatened by this bastard, he doesn't mistreat them, and he views them as a family. Combined this with Jon's aspirations to join an order that denies him any lands, titles or children, and Catelyn's distance seems misplaced and pretty immature. For me, these problems are only compounded when Catelyn entreats Robb to deny Jon Winterfell in A Storm of Swords. The majority of your children are dead, and the only heir remaining will pass your husband's family's lands to the House who murdered said husband. Let your son, the King, pass Winterfell to his only surviving brother. Catelyn's objections prove that she'll be blind forever to any good Jon might do for her or her family simply because he was bastard born. That's kinda fucked up. Kindness seems much easier and simpler than this frigidity.

[Lyanna Stark]

Right. You are saying Cat was justified, was not wrong, and is not made a greyer character by her relationship with Jon. Which is why I directed my point @Lyanna Stark, who was saying Cat was justified in her treatment of Jon, while also criticizing people for being unwilling to accept Cat's greyness. But if Cat wasn't wrong, where is the greyness?

She snapped at Jon Snow with the "It should have been you", and Cat is not perfect either. Hence "grey". I do think she had good reasons for her coldness and distance though, and that if this should be blamed on anyone, it should be blamed on Ned who as Ser Hippie put very succinctly, put two good people into a terrible situation.

[Lyanna Stark]

Would you threat your husband kindly and channel your anger on the child? Well, personal things probably are not the topic though. :dunno:

Cat didn't though, she was cold and distant from Jon. She only snapped at him once at Bran's bed when she was absolutely emotionally fraught. Again, Ned ordered her to not bring the question up again. For the sake of her marriage, she did what he asked. You try to blame Cat for Ned's actions here. He was the only who stonewalled her, he was the one with the STFU or else message.

EDIT: and 11th heaven backed that up with a book quote. Lovely. Ned actually *scared* Cat into silence so yeah. She *obviously* should have what? Fought her lord husband into submissions? Screamed and shouted? Pistols at dawn? :dunno:

And to answer your question, I would never have accepted a child into my home that was the result of an illicit affair during our marriage. I have the option of divorce, Cat does not.

[sennahoj]

I don't see how or where Catelyn treated Jon badly. His presence and upbringing at Winterfell was not only an insult to her and her family, but also a possible threat to her trueborn children. Bearing in mind all the negative character traits attributed to a bastard, who's to say the bastard would not somehow try to get the legitimate heirs out of the way. As we know, Catelyn is fiercely protective of her children. And since Ned doesn't tell on who is Jon's mother, Catelyn could imagine all kinds of possible mothers, from unchaste highborns to common whore. And that bastard is being brought up with her pure noble offspring.

Therefore, as has been pointed out, Catelyn's accepting Jon being raised with her children does her credit. And as for not being a mother figure to Jon, she cannot be blamed for keeping her distance. And whether Jon perceives Catelyn's behaviour as cold or not, or wishes for her to be a mother figure to him as well, that might also stem from the fact that he sees what a caring mother she is to her own children.

[a free shadow]

I think that's very unfair -

It had taken her a fortnight to marshal her courage, but finally, in bed one night, Catelyn had asked her husband the truth of it, asked him to his face. That was the only time in all their years that Ned had ever frightened her. "Never ask me about Jon," he said, cold as ice. "He is my blood, and that is all you need to know. And now I will learn where you heard that name, my lady."

This is a world where Catelyn has no rights - Ned would certainly be within his to beat her black and blue. This fact in addition to the above passage make it abundantly clear that Catelyn is in no postion to "stand up and fight".

Really, Catelyn believed Ned would beat her black and blue?

Really, Catelyn has no rights?

Well yes, Catelyn could have proved that she was a moral saint. But if her failure to do so means that she's a bad person, then I'm a bad person, so are you, so is almost everyone. You can be a good person without being perfect.

Moral saint, really? Not simply decent? And now you name me a bad person, really? Because I stand up and fight whatever might come, instead of sulking and kicking small children? Even if me and you were the same, which, it seems, we trully are not, if we all were bad, would it make us all good? :lol:

[Lummel]

Do you really wonder? Please expand what great secret plans might Ned have had? A coronation perhaps?

I don't know...they were secret plans after all ;)

...I can't tell if Jon ever regretted being born, but he clearly was led to think his very presence is a wrong thing. That certainly made him unhappier.

Well his presence seems to have been a wrong thing by Westeros standards. He's not left with the mother Baratheon style or sent away Hornwood style. I doubt though that this made him unhappy. He seems to have had a close and loving relation with Robb, Bran and Arya, he's had a comparative good upbringing and education. By Westeros standards (admittedly a low standard) he had a reasonably happy childhood I guess.

[Lyanna Stark]

Really, Catelyn believed Ned would beat her black and blue?

Really, Catelyn has no rights?

So the fact that Ned scared her means nothing to you at all? Cat is a fairly strong woman, yet she notes specifically that Ned scared her and you completely discard it as nothing? :eek:

And no, Cat has no rights here, she is lower in the pecking order than her lord husband and needs to be loyal to him. Hence, do what he says. She has no rights in this scenario.

Moral saint, really? Not simply decent? And now you name me a bad person, really? Because I stand up and fight whatever might come, instead of sulking and kicking small children? Even if me and you were the same, which, it seems, we trully are not, if we all were bad, would it make us all good? :lol:

I don't think it was meant as "you are a bad person", more that if Cat is a bad person, then we are all bad people. Cat also doesn't sulk and kick small children, I don't understand where you get this from and it's complete hyperbole.

Facts are: Cat was cold, but she didn't abuse Jon or maltreat him. She snapped at him once. She didn't love him. She asked Ned to have Jon move out of Winterfell (for instance to be fostered with the Cerwyns).