Girls

[lokisnow]

I liked it. Like most things of this ilk (Wes Anderson, Kevin Smith) I don't love it, but I appreciate the humor, sarcasm, bitterness and the meta-irony of someone who is very high performing/high achieving success in real life creating a comic character that is very low performing, low achieving failure in fiction. It seems that by externalizing all one's fears into a character, the real person seems to avoid all of the traps they let their character fall into.

As someone who had no parental support other than taking advantage of the family plan discount (and paying my parents for my phone costs, just getting a reasonable rate, rather than the typical wallet-rape rates they force you to pay if you get your own plan) after graduating college and managed to somehow find my feet in los angeles, I have no real sympathy for Hannah. I don't hate her either, normally I do sort of hate this character because its so far removed from my own experience, but I found her oddly understandable. And it seems like she's set up for an arc where she realizes she is capable and didn't need her parents. If she winds up going back on the parental dole, I'll quit watching.

[Mexal]

I guess I really don't understand the criticism. A lot of people are supported by their parents when they just get out of school and when you get cut off with no real job or money, it's a pretty crappy situation to be in. Yea, a lot of us survived otherwise and that's fine, but it's the first episode. It's clear she's going to figure out a way to make some money and survive. So just the fact that she was shocked and annoyed with her parents is enough to right off the show? Really don't understand.

[Guest Raidne]

It's an interesting question really, and one I think the show handles pretty deftly. TBH, I came down mostly on the side of the parents in this, however. Partly because the main character was showing no real motivation to get a paying job, but mostly I think it's because my own upbringing just can't gel with this kind of support system: kids being given fifteen hundred or more a month for over a year? WTF?

Okay, she's an English major, and she's two years out of school, and she wants to be an author. The only reasonable way to do this is have a job writing, get some exposure, get people to take you seriousy. Publish an essay in Harper's, whatever. From what I understand. The SFF world is probably a little less traditional that way, I really don't know. You'd have to burn some time an internship. A decade ago, that internship would have paid - next to nothing, but something. Now, everything is so glutted you can just take the people whose parents will support them without worrying about what that does to the quality of your labor pool. People just want to keep their resumes alive before they are two years out of school with nothing relevant on there. A lot of choices people are making now are between money now or career forever. I have no idea what my friends who are still working document review jobs four years out of law school are going to do. They not getting hired anywhere else, ever, if that's all they've been doing during that time.

I really don't understand the mindset - these people are college professors. If their daughter doesn't have a shot at being an author, who does? Don't they care? I'm all for responsible, but she is doing what she's supposed to do - it's not like she's blowing her parents money on hookers and blow while playing X-box on the couch.

At some point you have to cut the kid loose, and I think a year is plenty long enough. And $1500/month is $18K/year. Pretty freaking cheap for NYC. If I could afford it, I'd do it for my kid, if I believed in them. And I think that's the subtext - Hannah feels like her parents are telling her they don't believe in her, and apparently never did, and they just think they're saying "okay, time to stop wasting our money on this thing we all knew was stupid." After all, the title character did pull all this stuff off herself, at 23 - now 24 (although she always and still does live with her parents).

But it's a fine line between giving your kids a rare opportunity and enabling childish behavior. But if Dunham's own parents had thought that way and booted her out of the house, maybe we wouldn't have Girls.

(But I guess that's the point for those who don't agree, right? You'd just assume we didn't? You'd be upset if that was your daughter?)

[Mr. E]

I'm with Starkness, definitely in the "suck it up and get on with it already" camp (as described by Raidne). Very far from anything I would have experienced or tolerated at age 24, also.

Won't be watching again.

I understand where you're coming from, but I honestly think that's the point. The show is very self-aware that the main character's "plight" is a little stretched and sort of entitled. That's where a lot of the humor comes from in the pilot, I think...like someone else said, it looks like the show is shaping up to be someone truly striking out on their own.

Now, to Raidne's post. Discussion time!

Okay, she's an English major, and she's two years out of school, and she wants to be an author. The only reasonable way to do this is have a job writing, get some exposure, get people to take you seriousy. Publish an essay in Harper's, whatever.

FWIW, I'm an English major, one year out of school, and I want to be an author--so I understand the frustration. And God knows, I'm not anywhere near New York. But the problem is that the world can't contort for the main character to have her way. And really--does she have a job writing? Has this internship helped her in any way? At some point the real world has to sink in; she can't be like Marx, bumming off the generousity of wealthy people forever. And really, her whole writing methodology is problematic. She wants to write a memoir? At the age of 25? Seriously? Even she admits she has to live one to write one. Beyond that, I would say getting cut off and getting a more, oh, gritty life experience would actually help her in the long run, unless she wasn't to be like one of those ultra-hip upper class writers who are bound by the relative restraints of their experience.

Honestly though, I agree with you here for the most part. ]

From what I understand. The SFF world is probably a little less traditional that way, I really don't know. You'd have to burn some time an internship. A decade ago, that internship would have paid - next to nothing, but something. Now, everything is so glutted you can just take the people whose parents will support them without worrying about what that does to the quality of your labor pool. People just want to keep their resumes alive before they are two years out of school with nothing relevant on there. A lot of choices people are making now are between money now or career forever. I have no idea what my friends who are still working document review jobs four years out of law school are going to do. They not getting hired anywhere else, ever, if that's all they've been doing during that time.

This is where I have a little bit more of a problem. Yes, it sucks that the internship isn't paid. Yes, it sucks that she's being bled dry for no real reason. And no, I don't know how things work in big cities--I'm a Southern mountain boy after all, and we have a bit of a different mindset. But there are ways of supporting yourself even with an unpaid internship. Get another job. Wait tables. Work at McDonald's--hell, it's basically what I've had to do: be willing to do anything and take anything to pay the bills

Now the pushback would be that this would be a pretty miserable existence...but that only means she's joining oh, about 90% of the workforce. And that's something a bit more substantial to write about.

I really don't understand the mindset - these people are college professors. If their daughter doesn't have a shot at being an author, who does? Don't they care? I'm all for responsible, but she is doing what she's supposed to do - it's not like she's blowing her parents money on hookers and blow while playing X-box on the couch.

Yes, I would say they care, but my God, eighteen thousand dollars they've spent on their daughter: that's her rent and most of her food--again, maybe it's just that old-boy upbringing I mentioned, but I couldn't even imagine someone giving away that much money--it'd pretty much bankrupt my parents!

Like other people have said on her, sometimes you have to suck it up and make some hard decisions--and I think that's a lot of what this series is going to be about.

[Solmyr]

Watched it, it's not great, but as there's little to watch these days, I'll give it a few more shots. But for anyone who's looking for a somewhat similar show, I recommend Fresh Meat. It's more comedy than dramedy, has both male and female characters, who are a few years younger and takes place in the UK.

Back on topic, I normally don't watch shows like that, but because I am in a similar situation as the main char (24, graduate, unemployed), I thought I can relate. Well apart from the internship thing, I really can't, cuz family culture in my country is a lot different than in the US/UK, also I think my parents <3 me way more than Hannah's :D.

[delete this account pls]

As for the cultural commentary, I agree with Brady, who I knew would kind of like this show. It is very female though - the male characters aren't very fleshed out at this point. Brady, what did you think about Hannah's parents? What does everyone think about this? I mean, on the one hand, sure, they want to enjoy their retirement and feel flush with some extra cash already, but is it really okay to leave your daughter eating ramen and working at a cafe or something while you live it up in the Hamptons? What is the moral compass on what people owe to their kids in an era where getting a paying job after college can take a year or more and merely earning money instead of taking an experience-building unpaid internship can cost their kids hundreds of thousands of dollars in future earnings?

I think the parents were fairly broad characters - deliberately so. But there were enough little details (the father's earring) and nuances there, I thought, to extrapolate a bit. The father obviously spoils Hannah, and the mother reacts to this by assuming the role of Bad Cop, and maybe taking it a little too far, which only serves to make the dad go even easier on Hannah, and so on. All the characters apart from Hannah and her roomie were painted fairly broadly in the episode, but it's very much as point-of-view type of show. I think they can definitely expand on/deepen any of the more minor characters they introduced here. The Sex-in-the-City obsessed girl is the one who seems most like a caricature to me.

[Howdyphillip]

I was pleasantly surprised how much I enjoyed this show. After the first couple of scenes, I actively disliked the main character, yet by the end, I found her charming and started to sympathize with her. There is a niavety and innocence surrounding her that I hope the big bad world doesn't completely destroy in this series. All in all, I found it very real writing about very real people, and I am looking forward to seeing more of this.

[RedEyedGhost]

Watched it, it's not great, but as there's little to watch these days, I'll give it a few more shots. But for anyone who's looking for a somewhat similar show, I recommend Fresh Meat. It's more comedy than dramedy, has both male and female characters, who are a few years younger and takes place in the UK.

I love Fresh Meat. It's actually funny! I think the only time I laughed during the pilot of Girls was when she pulled out her "book" for her parents to read and it was like 8 pages. I wouldn't really compare the two shows though, Fresh Meat is kids going out on their own to college; which is quite a bit different than post-college. I think a more apt comparison would be New Girl - mid-twenty-somethings on their own, struggling monetarily, just with more dudes, likable characters, and many, many more laughs.

[Leviathan I]

You sound like such a redneck, you manage to bring up "fucking liberal media outlets" when discussing a shitty TV show.

[Starkess]

Apologies if this is in any way offensive, and I don't think it is, but people who go into the military tend to be the kind of people who just don't understand why everyone can't just suck it up and get on with it on already. You know, the sort of person that has an eye-roll reflex at hearing the word "existential." I find this to be an excellent trait, am madly jealous of those who have it, and like to befriend these people, but it's totally alien to me. It's not that the rest of us are that self-involved, although I'm sure it looks that way, it's that we have to dig a little deeper to find that kind of motivation. Think of it as sort of a defect.

Not offensive at all, I can totally see where you're coming from. Funny thing is, people were shocked when I first announced I was joining the military. I was 16 and dead serious, but no one believed I'd actually do it precisely because I was not the kind of "suck it up" person. And in a lot of ways, I'm still not. I grew up on philosophy and existential wonderings keep me up at night sometimes. :) Part of the reason I joined the military was, in fact, because I was scared of the real world. I was scared of being pushed out into the great wide world with no one to take care of me but myself. (I do not come from a wealthy family, so parental support was not an option, and staying in Iowa was out of the question.) And in some ways, the Navy has helped shield me from that. But in other ways, the Navy has also made me into the kind of person who can now suck things up and deal with them. So now, at 24, I actually feel ready to take on the real world and chafe at the fact that I can't. Which makes it hard to sympathize with someone who comes off as a wastrel.

Which is a really long and rambly way of saying (sorry, it's 3 AM and I'm forcing myself to stay up to make the transition to working nights this week...not conducive to clear and concise posting!) that I actually think I have less respect for Hannah because I do understand her in a lot of ways. And because she reminds me of myself at 17, not myself now at 24.

As for the cultural commentary, I agree with Brady, who I knew would kind of like this show. It is very female though - the male characters aren't very fleshed out at this point. Brady, what did you think about Hannah's parents? What does everyone think about this? I mean, on the one hand, sure, they want to enjoy their retirement and feel flush with some extra cash already, but is it really okay to leave your daughter eating ramen and working at a cafe or something while you live it up in the Hamptons? What is the moral compass on what people owe to their kids in an era where getting a paying job after college can take a year or more and merely earning money instead of taking an experience-building unpaid internship can cost their kids hundreds of thousands of dollars in future earnings?

Obviously I am more on the parents' side. Hannah is old enough to cut the apron strings, and who is to say there isn't value for her in living on ramen and working in a cafe? I think it would be entirely appropriate for her parents to have their lakehouse and for Hannah to pursue her own dreams. (Also, I'd imagine they'd give her nice gifts on special occasions and help her if she had a really specific need, as opposed to an open-ended, all-encompassing financial support. They're not disowning her, after all, just cutting her off from an unearned money supply.)

I guess I really don't understand the criticism. A lot of people are supported by their parents when they just get out of school and when you get cut off with no real job or money, it's a pretty crappy situation to be in. Yea, a lot of us survived otherwise and that's fine, but it's the first episode. It's clear she's going to figure out a way to make some money and survive. So just the fact that she was shocked and annoyed with her parents is enough to right off the show? Really don't understand.

But it's an entirely self-created situation. She's too fucking good to get a job schlepping burgers--she has a college degree. It boggles my mind that anyone would expect to make a living as an author right out of college. A freelance writer, maybe. But she's not trying to do that, is she? She's just coasting along in an internship relying on her parents, and when that is going to go away, she collapses into a puddle of "omg I'm so awesome you can't do this to me!" And then steals the freaking tip for the maid. Realistic? Yup. Sympathetic? Hell no.

[delete this account pls]

See, I get that. I just don't see why it's a problem in the show? Why are we so fascinated by Don Draper or Jimmy McNulty or Walter White being pretty horrible human beings, but it's a flaw here? Al Swearengen beats the shit out of one of his whores and threatens to murder her if she ever defies him again in the very first episode he appears in. He's also one of my favourite TV characters ever. But that doesn't mean I endorse pimping, drug dealing or murder.

Hannah is a female anti-heroine in a way that feels pretty real to me, without writing her like a man. That's part of why I like the show.

[Guest Raidne]

You sound like such a redneck, you manage to bring up "fucking liberal media outlets" when discussing a shitty TV show.

I'm a near-socialist federal attorney living in Washington DC who only reads liberal media outlets. Last week I read reviews on Salon, Slate, the New Yorker, etc. I felt inundated with commentary on the show (and even commentary on the commentary!) before it was even released.

But I've never once been called a redneck before. It's kind of novel.

[kungtotte]

Such a tame response, Raidne. I expected more from you :(

[Mr. E]

But it's an entirely self-created situation. She's too fucking good to get a job schlepping burgers--she has a college degree. It boggles my mind that anyone would expect to make a living as an author right out of college. A freelance writer, maybe. But she's not trying to do that, is she? She's just coasting along in an internship relying on her parents, and when that is going to go away, she collapses into a puddle of "omg I'm so awesome you can't do this to me!" And then steals the freaking tip for the maid. Realistic? Yup. Sympathetic? Hell no.

Yeah, this is basically what I was trying to say, only better and more concise. It's the entitlement issue--they talk about working at McDonald's as if doing so is way, way beneath them and their B.A. degrees. As starkness said, realistic? Yes. But is it going to put us on her "side"? No--and again, the show is written well enough to understand the main character's hypocrisy and the auidence reaction to it. It's not an Eat, Pray, Love situation where the writer is completely unaware of her own solipsism and that the root of her problems is, you know, her. The main character in Girls (is her name actually Lena?) doesn't realize the root of her problems is her either, but the setup and the manner in which it is written makes it clear that this isn't something to really admire or cheer for.

[Leviathan I]

I'm a near-socialist federal attorney living in Washington DC who only reads liberal media outlets. Last week I read reviews on Salon, Slate, the New Yorker, etc. I felt inundated with commentary on the show (and even commentary on the commentary!) before it was even released.

But I've never once been called a redneck before. It's kind of novel.

You're welcome (;

But seriously can't you see how your position could have been misconstrued?

[Arbor Gold]

Watched it last night and I'm on the fence. Will definitely give it a few more episodes so I can get to know the characters a bit better.

I was a bit surprised at how abruptly Hannah's parents (mom) cut the apron strings. Seems like if I was completely supporting my daughter I would give her a heads-up before I completely cut the funds off. I could understand, but not entirely relate to, Hannah's reaction to her new situation. I'm curious to see how she handles things now that the initial shock of the announcement is wearing off. What was the time course for this episode? 36 hours, roughly? I'm willing to give Hannah a buffer period to pull her shit together and get a job, but it better happen soon.

I did not like all the bathroom-sharing stuff. Do people actually do this? Eat a cupcake in the bathtub while someone else shaves her legs? Or walk in to the bathroom to have a conversation with someone who is on the toilet? Who does this?? Boundaries, ladies. Come on.

And Nora's board name is "Starkess" not "Starkness." There's no "n".

[Mr. E]

I did not like all the bathroom-sharing stuff. Do people actually do this? Eat a cupcake in the bathtub while someone else shaves her legs? Or walk in to the bathroom to have a conversation with someone who is on the toilet? Who does this?? Boundaries, ladies. Come on.

Ha! Yeah, I definitely think that was exaggerated but...not unrealistic, at least in my experience. Especially when there's one bathroom. It might be more a male/female thing, in all honesty.

[Ser Greguh]

Watched it, enjoyed it, will keep watching it to see where it goes. I find the complaints as to the main character's mindset a bit perplexing; while I understand that at face value her expectation of being provided-for by her parents can make her come off as a bit whining / entitled, I feel compelled to note that the show clearly knows this. That's why they had this happen in, you know, the first scene of the first episode. Do people honestly think that the show's happy ending will be her parents turning the faucet back on?!

Of course she's upset as it happens, because the manner in which it happens is a bit cold; she's cut off cold turkey, with no prospects, no warning, and for a reason (the mom wants a beach house) that does come off as a bit selfish and superficial. To expect her to just suck it up and deal with it would, y'know, leave no room for character growth and would make for a pretty boring show.

I'm guessing we'll see her get some form of income in the coming episodes. Somehow I'm guessing she doesn't starve to death 3 episodes in (that might be bold, but I don't think it would work for this show).

[awesome possum]

Heh,

Girls backlash summed up in one photo

[Guest Raidne]

Can being Bad Company's dummer's daughter really be that much of an advantage when they didn't even list his name?

But seriously can't you see how your position could have been misconstrued?

No. No I do not. I don't live in some reactionary backwater where a reference to a liberal media outlet automatically means (1) liberal is bad, (2) liberal media outlets are really bad, and (3) all media outlets are liberal.

Only liberal media sources were covering this show before it aired. How would I unambiguously phrase information without writing some kind of disclaimer for dipshits?

If you thought it was ambiguous, ask. And thank for the apology for insulting me and calling me a bigot (and a southerner! the horrors!), asshole.