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[Book Spoilers] EP 207 Discussion

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Shouldn't we be meeting Poderick soon?

This happens earlier, the night she gets the note. There's indeed a commotion that Sansa take advantage of the first time, but I believe it was just a mob of angry people. She then starts going to the godswood regularly. I believe it's at the time of the Blackwater that Dontos gives her the hair net.

Don't forget who the hairnet really comes from, so that can't happen until Margery Tyrell is in King's Landing, and Gran has a reason...

Anyone watching with a non reader who guessed the Bran Rickon ruse straight away?

Yes. In fact, everyone I know who hasn't read the books, has called me in the last 48 hours, screaming WTF WITH THE KIDS?????? So relax. They're going to reinforce that in the next two episodes with raven scrolls to everyone who cares about their deaths. The season will end with the four of them coming out of the Winterfell crypts and seeing a burning ruin. Followed by three short blasts at the Fist (or they might open with that next season, since they still need to find the cache of dragonglass.)

My two non-readers are both skeptical but nervous enough to be bugging me for information.

See? This. Same here.

Then how can Joffrey’s word overrule his own regent’s? It cannot. See the problem? Joffrey could not have Cersei executed for striking him. It is both her right and duty to do so: her right as his regent, and her duty as his mother. The Mad Kinglet has been paying too much attention to the “where power resides” puzzle.

You're forgetting the operative word in your post: MAD. Joffrey is batsh^ite crazy, it doesn't matter if he's underage. Cersei is also female, and females in Westeros do NOT assume power as a rule, so there is that too.

Yeah, AVERAGE person, not every person. Some women bleed more than others. And first period might be differents from later ones. My first lasted for 7 days and I bled a lot more than ever after that. So no, show didn't get that wrong at all as well as it didn't get it wrong for Sansa getting her moonblood later than usual. Not only do some girls menstruate late naturally but there can be other reasons, too. For example severe stress, physical or psychological, can alter woman's menstrual cycle and it's quite obvious that Sansa is very anxious and stressed in her situation.

ATTENTION MEN: INCOMING TMI. IF YOU GET QUEASY WITH "GIRLIE FUNCTIONS" PLEASE SKIP TO THE NEXT POST.

My first time lasted two weeks, looked like Sansa's bed within an hour, and was full of clots. The pill eventually fixed that, thankfully.

Edited by bardgal

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Sorry man, this episode was so painful I have kind of lost hope for the rest of the series. And as a preempt, I am not a book "purist", but I do love the story and character dynamics, and to be honest, the HBO series has kind of wrecked a lot of the dynamic that was dear to me, and can only be something vaguely similar in plot to ASoIaF for me at this point, and I thought season 1 was great. What is great about the book series is after all the characters and their dynamics, without this, the series is just any other fantasy plot (and GRRM himself acknowledges this). Let's go over what was so wrong with episode 7:

1) Jaimeanderthal - His murder was extremely out of character for him. Some of you have been like "ZOMGZ BUT HE KICKED A BABBY OUT OF A TOWER THATS WORSE CUZ BABBYS R CUTE". Please, killing bran was an inescapable necessity for preserving his love life and the kingslayer part -- need we mention Aerys was a MAD KING who burned people alive in his throne room, and was highly unfit to rule? What Jaime would do for love... well, I can tell you killing his cousin was not (nor was it portrayed as such) killing "for love", it was killing because he was greedy (or "evil") -- and that is completely out of character for him. Jaime is awesome, and a great character has now been ruined.

2) Tywin-or-you-die-or-you-give-Arya-your-dinner - A man who would have a full barracks of women rape a woman of lower class to prove to his son that all women of lower class are whores in that they want a lord for their money -- this type of man would not give a serving girl his meal. He would certainly not COMPARE his daughter to a serving wench.

3) Cersei-iously? What happened to the self-entitled spoiled princess in her? What happened to the one who in the future does very mean things to her brother she seemingly bonds with (or is willing to cry in front of.....) There is a reason why Cersei actually crying for the first time in the series feel cathartic -- and that's because she would never boohoo like she did in episode 7.

4) Ygritte-my-teeth-in-exasperation: Well, let's let it slide that the actual development of the love story is butchered. "You know nothing Jon Snow" was for me a metaphor for the clash of civilizations their impossible love tryst is, not a metaphor for "You aint never felt me warm wet soft innards ye crow". To be quite blunt, she came off more like a whore from in Kings Landing than an strong experienced battle-worn independent wildling.

5) Don't-Shae-Nuthin-To-Nobody-Or-I'll-use-this-butterknife-to-make-you-toast: For those of you who recall Shae's later actions, you know this was not only stupid of her but also out of character for her to try to "save" Sansa (How wrong is it to think of the Unreal style announcement "First Blood!" during the Sansa scene?). Not to mention she really doesn't have any incentive to -- she's a whore/servant, since when did she have loyalty? And fine, fine fine! She is a loyal whoreservant. Then PLEASE explain to me where this loyalty of hers goes in aDoD? She is more loyal to a random princess she serves than a lord who has given her all of what she has, and is even loyal to her? Or are they going to ruin that love story as well!?

So, yeah. As another preempt to the insecure Anti Criticism League, I DO like what the series overall did with Greyjoy, Arya, Sansa, Brienne, C aetlyn. So please don't try to pull that "This guy is just in a sour blue balls mood and is taking it out on the internet, haterz gonna hate" lines to dismiss any valid articulate criticisms of the HBO series, PARTICULARLY this season. It's dropped it's standards pretty low.

Not many quotes have me laughing before I reply in rebuttal but this one definitely did it..

1) The Jaime aspect... Just lol, are you out of your mind? Some little kid, A HELPLESS LITTLE KID, sees me kissin my sister.. damn I gotta preserve my love so I gotta brutally murder him so he doesnt tattle on me.... Dear god lol. I am so glad I dont know you where you consider the attempted murder of the equivelant of an elementary school kid a justifiable casualty to avoid people knowing he is hitting it with his sister. It is just as selfish (not greedy because how the hell is there greed involved in escaping prison) to kill your cousin to escape as it is to murder a kid so your acts of indiscretion go unnoticed. Ummmmmm be a man, if you are man enough to get with your married twin sister you can be a man and suck it up when a kid catches you in the act. Something tells me that if I was cheating on my girlfriend and some little kid sees me and I push him into oncoming traffic, a jury wont be like but wait... he was acting to preserve his love. Um no it was being SELFISH (you know... the word to describe killing Alton that you feel is so uncharacteristic) saying hey I dont wanna be caught I wanna end some little kids potential to have his own life to SAVE MINE AND MY SISTERS ASSES (again selfish btw).

2) Damn it with the Tywin character assessments. He isnt letting the girl run around free in the forests living in the lap of luxury. He is clearly aware she is an upper class northerner lying about her identity (he has alluded to knowing she is lying several times). She is more valuable alive than dead and it would come in handy to have her in a more confused and vulnerable position strategically. And again, he is having random conversation with the girl offering her food, not taking her on a vacation showering her with gold and gifts. He is ruthless to those that are of no value to him strategically or in any possible way. This cupbearer (yeah being his slave is some special honor that defies his character) has potential value and it would be very UN-Tywin like to pass up the opportunity to keep your enemies closer than your friends.

3) Is it really that big of a stretch Cersei losing it like this? She has clearly in the books been shown to be at odds with Joffreys decisions. She went insane eventually and her being tormented inside with what her son has become would be a logical precursor to her ranting and insanity to come... And how do you know she wouldnt cry? Logic dictates that a person who acts as she does very often is running from things she is battling inside.. You dont know her... none of us do shes a character out of a book.

4) She definitely acts like a strong independent wildling... She shows no fear or discretion in anything she says, basically mocking her captor. She speaks not like a whore.. but like a wildling. Shes crazy and in a lot of ways an outlaw. She was mocking the guy. I wont lie I havent really been a fan of this aspect of the show but I understand that a lot of it is for the TV crowd and entertainment value vs being loyal to the book storyline. I dont love it but I understand it.

5) Ummm what does it do as far as Shaes future role in the books? It further shows that there is the book series and the TV series and both have different arcs and demographics to please. It is being a purist to expect every single character to be the same as in the book. This is an adaptation. We cant complain about some changes that dont make sense because they are using the books as a foundation with some aspects nothing more.

In conclusion, please do not say this is hate against critique or any negative feedback. I think negative feedback is just as important as positive feedback. But lets be honest this wasnt logical or articulate. This is another example of trying to seem like people welcome change then just go insane when its a change you didnt envision. GRRM approved all of the happenings in the show why cant we just accept that this show is NOT the books? I didnt go crazy loving this episode but I promise you there were no bomb threats made anywhere on account of my frustration that the episode deviated from the books.

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The show lost me the moment they tried to make THE WHORE relevant....and I mean Shae.

I'm cool with Ros. I'm hope she and Theon get together in the books but whatevs.

Back to The Imp's Whore....I'm so disgusted and just thrown off by what HBO is doing with Shae. Shes nothing more than a minor character and yet the show keeps insisting on pushing her face on my screen and making it seem like she's gonna play some crucial role.

Uhhhh NO we all know what Shae will do in the end and what happens to her as a result. Shes just a whore. Whores should be silent and out of the way unless called up to perform.

This show had some great 1 on 1 moments....its just so sad that ALL of them made no fucking sense in terms of the characters and the emotions they displayed as well as their actions.

Save for Sansa and the Queen I would have given the episode a 1.

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Wait...did you guys actually think Bran and Rickon were dead when you read the book? Personally I don't believe a character is dead unless I see it with my own eyes, and something definitely felt off about that Theon/Reek scene on the hunt.

Totally agree. They came back the right size but basically unidentifiable. Why would Theon make them unidentifiable if he wanted to be able to prove he captured them?

Oh yea, because he didn't actually capture them he just found a couple other right-sized boys whom he could maim until no one could identify them and he could claim he found and killed Bran and Rickon.

ETA: Also, as the Maester says, the boys are worth a hell of a lot more to Theon alive than dead. Why would he kill his only valuable hostages? They pissed him off? He's not that stupid.

Edited by wolverine

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snip

At this point you've created this giant straw-man argument around the idea that I find D&D evil misogynists who spend their time plotting the best way to demean all women, all the time. I don't know what D&D were thinking when they changed Cat's narrative, but I remember at least one preview for season 2 where they said that the women of the series are the strong ones. Most likely they believe it too. Well, I don't really give a shit what their intentions were. Intent doesn't matter, only the end result does. Despite what you think, I don't believe I can see inside the writers' minds. Even if I could, it wouldn't change my opinion, because I'm basing my argument on the final product and not the original concept. They could have started with the best intentions in the world, or the worst, the result would be the same, and I'd still find their portrayal problematic for a number of reasons.

In the same way I don't really care what your opinion on Cat is either, though for what it's worth I did think you liked the character. But that's besides the point. Despite what you've said I'm still getting the idea that you find a lot of Book Cat's actions pretty stupid, since you've been repeating several times per post how she's so much smarter in the show (not mentioning Theon is smarter than doing so, not harping Robb about Jeyne is smarter than saying something, releasing Jaime out of immediate necessity is smarter than choosing to do so on her own etc.). So basically, you find a woman to be smarter when she shuts up rather than when she speaks up. That's sexism with a velvet glove right there (see how I'm not attacking you ?). That makes her appear much smarter than when she stays of her own will and then fucks up.” When you say that she fucks up, it seems a pretty clear indication to me that you thought she acted stupidly.

As for the scene with Karstark, no she never had a confrontation with Karstark with weapons drawn, but she had an earlier scene much like it, except better, that was not included in the show. When Renly is slain by the shadow, a couple of guards and knights of the Rainbow Guard pour inside the tent, and while Brienne is busy fighting 2 or 3 men at once Catelyn literally puts herself between her and Ser Robar Royce, catches his by the arm before he can draw his sword and not only does she convince him not to attack Brienne, she even manages to have him fight the other guards outside. Then she saves the unarmoured Brienne from the steel-clad Ser Emmon Cuy by hitting him on the head with an iron brazier. And unlike what's in the show, she did it while alone in the middle of an enemy camp and not surrounded by her husband and son's men, i.e. in much greater personal danger. So excuse me if for not finding it spectacular when they deign to include toned down versions of her canon “badass” scenes every once in a while.

It's not making the female characters more sympathetic that I find problematic, it's the elements they've chosen to alter in the story lines that make it so. As I've already shown, pretty much every reason people have for hating Cat has been altered : she's not as mean to Jon, she's not as opinionated as in the books, she wants to go to Winterfell to be with Bran and Rickon, she doesn't betray Robb etc. All of that basically boils down to : she should be a better mother, i.e. not being as abrasive towards her teenage “step-son”, not choosing to stay away from her youngest children, complying to her eldest son's wishes. The changes they've made in Cersei's character also revolve around the idea of motherhood and family. Making her more sympathetic involves the following : she had unrequited feelings for her husband until a year into their marriage, she never aborted a baby but instead had a miscarriage/stillbirth, she never orders the murder of her husband's bastards etc. So apparently D&D think the viewers would have more sympathy for a woman whose feelings for her husband are not reciprocated rather than for a woman forced into marrying a man she hates. Or that a woman who willingly performs an abortion on an unwanted (forced) pregnancy isn't worthy of sympathy. On the whole I find Cat and Cersei to be the two characters they have tried to make the most sympathetic, and it just so happens that these two occupy the Mother role in the story, albeit on different sides. With Shae they seem to be going with the “whore with a heart of gold” archetype, and Margaery's portrayal is not really relevant because there is nothing to really compare her to in the books, given how little she's present in Clash.

But the whole “sympathy” thing isn't my primary gripe with Cat's portrayal. She should be the agent of her own story, the one calling the shots on her own life. Instead she submits to her teenage son's will (yes, Richard Madden is 25-ish and looks it, but Robb's still supposed to only be 18). In the books, it is her choice to stay at her son's side rather than go home to Winterfell, and to make that possible she orders Rodrik to go back in her place to act as castellan and military advisor. Catelyn doesn't want to go pay homage to Renly, but still does it of her own volition because Robb offers sending the Greatjon as an envoy instead. Hell, during their first reunion Robb asks her if she's going to send him back to Winterfell like the boy he is. But in the show he is ordering her around from the start, preventing her from going where she wants, sending Rodrik to Winterfell in her place and making her ride to the Stormlands the next day. Nothing is her choice any more, she's become the sidekick to Robb's story when it should be the reverse. You think that Robb ordering her to stay is good because it shows that he values her advice, while in my opinion it's bad because it strips her of her agency and makes her the passenger of her own life. I just find it infinitely more interesting to read about a woman who makes her own decisions, even if those decisions aren't necessarily the right ones, than about a woman who does well in everything because she is constantly told to do by the men in her life. Book Cat is the former, Show Cat is the latter.

In short, I think D&D have simply missed the point of the character and her role in the story. Change in itself doesn't bother me as long as the thematic of a character's arc is kept mostly intact. In my opinion that's what they did with Catelyn. To give an example with another character, I find it as bad as if they'd taken out the entire identity-crisis theme out of Theon's narrative and only played the “what a backstabbing douchebag” angle (to be clear : I don't think they did that, they've done a perfect job with Theon so far IMO).

And finally, reverse sexism. Lol. Yeah, good luck with that argument.

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The show lost me the moment they tried to make THE WHORE relevant....and I mean Shae.

...(snip)

This show had some great 1 on 1 moments....its just so sad that ALL of them made no fucking sense in terms of the characters and the emotions they displayed as well as their actions.

Save for Sansa and the Queen I would have given the episode a 1.

You surely can't have watched Episode 7. Did you actually listen to the dialogue, and given more than 5 seconds thought to what you learnt about the various characters? Seems not.

I suspect that the reason they are making Shae more of a character on the TV show is so that her eventual betrayal of Tyrion will have more of an impact. Don't forget that Sansa eventually marries Tyrion, and having Shae as both her handmaid and Tryion's special whore (remember he brought her to KL against Tywin's orders), will mean that viewers understand just why Tyrion feels so betrayed to find her in his father's bed, and why he kills her in a rage.

Remember that a lot of what we see of Shae in the books is just Tyrion POV thoughts, as well as just brief glimpses of her. GRRM provides a great deal of information via POV internalisation and exposition in the books, but this does not translate easily to the screen, hence we need additional scenes, or some characters need to be given slightly greater prominence.

Edited by Currawong

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I hated Catelyn in the book and though she was a selfish idiot. In the show I think she comes off as way more intelligent and capable. But whatever.

With the killing of most of the 13 in Qarth it makes me wonder if they are going to try and speed up Dany's storyline. Why else would they need Xaro to have more power than he does in the books? Maybe they are just doing it for fun but it makes me wonder about their plans for the future. IMO there are certainly other threads that could be streamlined from the books, particularly from AFFC.

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You surely can't have watched Episode 7. Did you actually listen to the dialogue, and given more than 5 seconds thought to what you learnt about the various characters? Seems not.

I suspect that the reason they are making Shae more of a character on the TV show is so that her eventual betrayal of Tyrion will have more of an impact. Don't forget that Sansa eventually marries Tyrion, and having Shae as both her handmaid and Tryion's special whore (remember he brought her to KL against Tywin's orders), will mean that viewers understand just why Tyrion feels so betrayed to find her in his father's bed, and why he kills her in a rage.

Remember that a lot of what we see of Shae in the books is just Tyrion POV thoughts, as well as just brief glimpses of her. GRRM provides a great deal of information via POV internalisation and exposition in the books, but this does not translate easily to the screen, hence we need additional scenes, or some characters need to be given slightly greater prominence.

Actually I DID watch the show and listen to the dialogue. I'm not impressed. Her scenes did nothing for me and have done nothing all season long except reinforce how stupid the character is.

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I have mixed feelings about this episode. I was really looking forward to seeing Riverrun this season seeing as that's where Jaime was set free from. But it seems like the show is taking a different angle on this development. I really haven't liked the whole Robb and first aid girl dynamic, it's just not doing it for me and betrays the shock of the Westerling marriage. Jon has been wasted the last couple of episodes, not sure how they're going to explain the turncloak assignment. The Arya/Tywin dynamic works for me though.

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For me, I just have to try suspend my cultural bias in order to enjoy it and not get creeped-out. Like you said, the way we think of age-appropriateness now is wholly a product of the last century. My great-grandmother was married to my great-grandfather when she was 12; family lore talks of her waiting for him to go to work to sneak and play with her dolls, which is sad by today's standards, but marrying young like that was perfectly normal back then. You gave daughters to men who could provide for a family, not boys.

Actually it wasn't that normal to be married off at 12 during middle ages. Well, it did vary, "middle ages" does cover time period for hundreds of years and average marriage age did not stay the same all the time. However, there were times when average marriage age was well over 20 years even for women. There were many reasons for this; for instance at some point church took over marriage deciding it was one of the sacraments and so blessing of a priest was required for a couple to be legally wed. This was not free and many poorer people needed years to collect suitable amount of money which meant that they were forced to delay their marriage.

For nobles and roayl persons things were of course different. They were sometimes married off very young so in that sense GRRM is quite correct in his books even though it does creep me out (and is one the reasons I don't want to read the books, sorry).

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At this point you've created this giant straw-man argument around the idea that I find D&D evil misogynists who spend their time plotting the best way to demean all women, all the time.

That's basically what saying Cat is 'just a reminder woman should stay at home' and questioning their intentions comes down to.

Most likely they believe it too. Well, I don't really give a shit what their intentions were. Intent doesn't matter, only the end result does.

Then why complain about how you're worried about their intentions a bit earlier? You haven't managed to answer the other inconsistency I addressed in my previous post either.

In the same way I don't really care what your opinion on Cat is either

Followed by an entire paragraph of text... lol. Bringing what I said about Cat acting smarter on the show to that horrible line that implies I think she should shut up (while I was focusing on things she did say) is biased as hell and I'm just going to let you go back to reread those parts. This is the second time I literally have to say I don't think she's dumb (which doesn't mean she's perfect or flawless), I hope it'll be enough.

Again you keep whining about badass stuff that hasn't been included most likely to shorten the scene.

Your opinions on the adaption are your own, bringing it all down to sexism as you were doing at the start of your argument, at least, is not.

Your continued repetitions of your gripes with the adaption are not helping to make clear you understand I don't mind what you think of it either, I just felt your comment was very biased in your perception and towards the screenwriters intentions.

And finally, reverse sexism. Lol. Yeah, good luck with that argument.

I literally said I'm not making that point because it would be nonsensical, it was a hypothetic example to illustrate how it didn't make sense for you to say Cat was a sexist stereotype in the show either. Simply finding her less interesting is a whole different thing. Please learn how to read comprehensively.

Edited by StannisandDaeny

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Good job, you've addressed... exactly zero of her points.

Pearsl before swine, Eva. I'm afraid you're wasting your breath.

Edited by Morrigan

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That's basically what saying Cat is 'just a reminder woman should stay at home' and questioning their intentions comes down to.

Then why complain about how you're worried about their intentions a bit earlier? You haven't managed to answer the other inconsistency I addressed in my previous post either.

Followed by an entire paragraph of text... lol. Bringing what I said about Cat acting smarter on the show to that horrible line that implies I think she should shut up (while I was focusing on things she did say) is biased as hell and I'm just going to let you go back to reread those parts. This is the second time I literally have to say I don't think she's dumb (which doesn't mean she's perfect or flawless), I hope it'll be enough.

Again you keep whining about badass stuff that hasn't been included most likely to shorten the scene.

Your opinions on the adaption are your own, bringing it all down to sexism as you were doing at the start of your argument, at least, is not.

Your continued repetitions of your gripes with the adaption are not helping to make clear you understand I don't mind what you think of it either, I just felt your comment was very biased in your perception and towards the screenwriters intentions.

I literally said I'm not making that point because it would be nonsensical, it was a hypothetic example to illustrate how it didn't make sense for you to say Cat was a sexist stereotype in the show either. Simply finding her less interesting is a whole different thing. Please learn how to read comprehensively.

This conversation is going nowhere. Apparently you still think finding fault with the way they've chosen to adapt Catelyn's story = thinking D&D are consciously changing things around because they hate all women. Maybe you've missed the parts where I said I found them to be doing a good job with Brienne, Arya and Melisandre, to name a few ?

And so far you've established that I'm insulting towards Michelle Fairley, insulting towards the screenwriters, that I lack reading comprehension, that I'm ignoring half your points (I'm pretty sure I've managed to touch them all in my 1,500 word wall-text up there, except maybe the one where you said that having Jaime kill the young cousin who idolized him is supposed to make him sympathetic), that I whine a lot about missing badass scenes (there needs to be a counterpoint to your constant "she stood up to Karstark" spiel) and that I'm generally too biased to make any sense.

But I think my favourite part is when you accused me of sexism in the very first line of your very first post against me, and somehow manage to get offended on the screenwriters' behalf when I have the gall to find their adaptation of a fictional female character problematic.

And I'm understanding less and less what your reverse sexism argument is all about. Basically you're saying that it's nonsensical to find a female character's portrayal sexist because a male character's portrayal is obviously not ? I think I'm missing something here. But interesting choice of words in that hypothetical example of yours by the way : Jon has been hypothetically discriminated against because his adaptation has turned him into a "pussy", which is a word with overwhelming female connotations. So sexism against men = making them more woman-like. Okay then.

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For nobles and roayl persons things were of course different. They were sometimes married off very young so in that sense GRRM is quite correct in his books even though it does creep me out (and is one the reasons I don't want to read the books, sorry).

You're doing yourself a terrible disservice.

Edited by J.S. Crews

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Yup, I am a girl, and still think there was too much blood for her first time, I have always heard girls saying that the first time, there was almost nothing. You say, she might have been bleeding for an hour, but they show that much blood that she could have been bleeding the whole week. At least in my experience.

I think the blood on her legs and some smaller stains on her gown and sheets would have told it quite sufficietly and much more realistic.

Every girl's first period is different. Some first "flowerings" are extremely heavy, and some aren't. It's as simple as that :)

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You're doing yourself a terrible disservice.

I agree. Not reading the books for a reason like that is ridiculous. Do they also refuse to read history, because people getting married and having sex so young is just so creepy? Even if you do find it creepy, it's still a horrible reason to not read the books. I love that GRRM did that with the ages, that's part of the reason for why the story is so real, gritty, and awesome(as weird as that might sound).

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I said it was ONE of the reasons and in fact not nearly my biggest issue with reading these books. Main reason is that I simply have no strong interest in them. I like the series a lot but feel no need or urge to read ASOIAF as a book version. There are some reasons that make me feel even less enthusiastic and age thing is one of them though there are other WAY bigger ones, but as said, most importantly I just don't feel like it. There are thousands of good books in the world so I don't really see why not reading THESE books would make my life worse than not reading some other novels.

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