NBA Playoffs 2012 - Prelude to Punches

[Slurktan]

Enlighten me, why would Harden and Ibaka leave OKC?

As Rhom said, salary cap issues. Durant makes 15 mil this year and it goes up for the next 4 years. Westbrook is still on his rookie deal but I believe his extension kicks in next year which will push him above 15 million. Ibaka and Harden are on their rookie deals for next year but then any extension will kick in the next year and both will be for over 10 million a season, likely Harden will get the same max as Westbrook and Durant. They will not be able to afford all 4 that season thus it behooves them to move one this season so that they can get something in return. (Unlike say if Harden gets a max restricted free agent deal that the Thunder can't match in next years free agent period)

[BLU-RAY]

Well, first of all- didn't Durant and Westbrook take slightly under the max? So Presti could use that as a negotiating lever with Harden?

But even beyond that, since Ibaka doesn't come up until next year- couldn't they sign Harden to the max, play out this upcoming season, and then flip him at the end of the year for a pick and a player while signing Ibaka to a max-ish contract? I think that's the way to go- they need Ibaka long-term more than they need Harden.

[Maithanet]

Well, first of all- didn't Durant and Westbrook take slightly under the max? So Presti could use that as a negotiating lever with Harden?

But even beyond that, since Ibaka doesn't come up until next year- couldn't they sign Harden to the max, play out this upcoming season, and then flip him at the end of the year for a pick and a player while signing Ibaka to a max-ish contract? I think that's the way to go- they need Ibaka long-term more than they need Harden.

Harden is not worth a max contract. Paying guys tons of money in long term deals because "you can't afford to lose them" is the way to irrelevance in the NBA. I'm not just basing this on his horrific finals performance. Guys that are 6th Man of the Year types are really valuable, but part of the reason is that you don't have to pay them max contracts.

As for the rest of the roster, I agree that Perkins wasn't very useful against the Heat. He was however, very useful against the Lakers and the Spurs, and that cannot be forgotten. Perkins is the kind of guy that will frustrate and neutralize the opponents Center. He provides size and rebounding, but lacks the lateral quickness to be a great shot blocker. If you're playing a team that relies on their Center/PF for low post offense, he will make it very difficult for them.

However, the Heat do not do that. Most of the finals they didn't even have a center in, and instead played with either two PFs (Bosh and Haslem) or two SFs (James and Battier). Perkins doesn't have the moves to really exploit size mismatches, so this meant that the Thunder couldn't attack these small Heat lineups.

But Miami is really the only team that that is true for. They still need to win the West, and I'm not sure they can do it without Perkins on defense. And if the Eastern Conference winner was Chicago, they'd need him for covering Noah, or the Celtics Garnett, or the Pacers Hibbert, etc. And if Howard goes to Dallas or LA, they will really need Perkins then. So, I think getting rid of Perkins just because he matches up badly with the Heat (which he does!) would be very short-sighted.

[Slurktan]

Harden is not worth a max contract. Paying guys tons of money in long term deals because "you can't afford to lose them" is the way to irrelevance in the NBA. I'm not just basing this on his horrific finals performance. Guys that are 6th Man of the Year types are really valuable, but part of the reason is that you don't have to pay them max contracts.

Yep and that is why the Thunder will be in so much trouble if they try and keep both Harden and Ibaka. Some team will make Harden a max restricted offer. I would strongly doubt he would sign for less from the Thunder.

[Calibandar]

Well, it's going to be a long wait for October. If it were up to me they could start again right now, I've really enjoyed the NBA this year.

[Howdyphillip]

Well, it's going to be a long wait for October. If it were up to me they could start again right now, I've really enjoyed the NBA this year.

I did as well. I really loved the Christmas start this year though. It made the league feel like a present. I am never into watching basketball before then anyway as I am still watching football.

I also really liked the fast pace of the regular season. It didn't do my Mavericks any favors, but it was fun to watch games four or five times a week.

[Rhom]

Word is that D. Williams is only wanting to play for either New Jersey or Dallas. That would be a huge get for Dallas, but New Jersey needs to the most.

As hard as it will be to get used to saying... I believe it is now the Brooklyn Nets. (at least I've seen it referenced that way a couple of places)

[Fez]

As hard as it will be to get used to saying... I believe it is now the Brooklyn Nets. (at least I've seen it referenced that way a couple of places)

Still can't believe they wouldn't change the team name. The Brooklyn Bridges would be awesome.

[Jaime L]

So, I think getting rid of Perkins just because he matches up badly with the Heat (which he does!) would be very short-sighted.

I'm not so sure. Think the playoffs this year reflected a further movement away from the lumbering big man. The Lakers realized they couldn't compete with two of them and even the Spurs are a more guard oriented team than ever before. More and more if you have a big man that's not hyper-athletic that becomes a liability. Maybe that's part of what Ainge was seeing when he traded him a couple years ago. Sure Perkins helps against the Howards and Bynums of the world but that's only two teams and as the Thunder continue to develop, I think they continue to beat those two teams with or without Perkins (notable exception if Dallas somehow ends up with Howard). The other big men you named don't require a Perkins to stop them - Ibaka is fine. The team they need to beat going forward is the Heat, who everyone agrees looks like they have the makings of a dynasty, and if you're not actively helping the Thunder overcome Lebron and co. you're hurting your chances at a championship.

I mean of course a guy like Perkins is a great guy to have around for those situations when you really need a classic big man and post defender. But the whole issue with the Thunder is that they're going to be increasingly limited by the salary cap in future seasons and you have to decide how best to deploy limited resources. Depending on who makes themselves available to a title contender like the Thunder, I could see better ways to spend the $7-9 million owed Perkins each of the next few seasons - a Tayshaun Prince type would be perfect IMO. I'm not saying get rid of him at the very first opportunity, he does have some value, but after badmouthing the coach at the worst possible moment during the NBA Finals I'm not bending over backwards to keep him either.

[Maithanet]

But the whole issue with the Thunder is that they're going to be increasingly limited by the salary cap in future seasons and you have to decide how best to deploy limited resources. Depending on who makes themselves available to a title contender like the Thunder, I could see better ways to spend the $7-9 million owed Perkins each of the next few seasons - a Tayshaun Prince type would be perfect IMO. I'm not saying get rid of him at the very first opportunity, he does have some value, but after badmouthing the coach at the worst possible moment during the NBA Finals I'm not bending over backwards to keep him either.

It was very strange that Perkins said that, he's always been a team player, a guy who is always tough on the court but always collected off of it. I can only assume that he was frustrated with how the series was going, and that what looked like youthful mistakes were ruining all that hard work. But he should know better than to say something like that.

As for the rest of your argument, I can see where you're coming from, but I don't think that OKC can just assume that they own the West having won it once. Their athletic 4 can give everyone a lot of problems, but Dallas, San Antonio and both LA teams all could potentially push them if they can improve. And signs indicate that DWill and Howard could both find their way over to the Western Conference.

If it's a choice between Perkins or Ibaka or Harden walking, then I agree, Perkins would be the one that needs to go. But I'm not sure that it will come down to that, and he provides a very valuable presence on OKC right now. Their team would be weaker without him, and I don't agree that someone like Tayshaun Prince (who I've always liked as a player) could possibly substitute for him.

If we're talking about what OKC needs more than anything to beat the Heat, I think the answer is that they need Durant to become a better, stronger defender. He relies on his length to give people problems, but Lebron is just too strong and too fast and too good at drawing fouls to make that work. If Durant can make that matchup work better, then I like their chances.

[Exa Inova]

So who are the players that never won one that you wanted to see, and who are the ones that never won that make you smile a little? One I wanted to win? Barkley One I was happy never won? Malone, Karl

Amen

(...) On another note, what I wanted to ask you guys, what do you think OKC can or should do in terms of strengthening the squad? I've been watching them the whole season and for me Perkins is the only false note in the team. He's not bad at all, but he's not a great center to my mind. Are there better centers around that OKC could get their hands on?(...) Perkins just seems too limited, and he doesn't divert attention from a Kevin Durant the way Chris Bosh can do for James and Wade. (...)

Listen to Maithanet

Harden is not worth a max contract. Paying guys tons of money in long term deals because "you can't afford to lose them" is the way to irrelevance in the NBA. (...)I agree that Perkins wasn't very useful against the Heat. He was however, very useful against the Lakers and the Spurs, and that cannot be forgotten. Perkins is the kind of guy that will frustrate and neutralize the opponents Center. He provides size and rebounding, but lacks the lateral quickness to be a great shot blocker. If you're playing a team that relies on their Center/PF for low post offense, he will make it very difficult for them. However, the Heat do not do that. Most of the finals they didn't even have a center in, and instead played with either two PFs (Bosh and Haslem) or two SFs (James and Battier). Perkins doesn't have the moves to really exploit size mismatches, so this meant that the Thunder couldn't attack these small Heat lineups. But Miami is really the only team that that is true for. They still need to win the West, and I'm not sure they can do it without Perkins on defense. And if the Eastern Conference winner was Chicago, they'd need him for covering Noah, or the Celtics Garnett, or the Pacers Hibbert, etc. And if Howard goes to Dallas or LA, they will really need Perkins then. So, I think getting rid of Perkins just because he matches up badly with the Heat (which he does!) would be very short-sighted.

Totally agree. They needed Pekins to get to the finals in the first place.

I'm not so sure. Think the playoffs this year reflected a further movement away from the lumbering big man. The Lakers realized they couldn't compete with two of them and even the Spurs are a more guard oriented team than ever before. More and more if you have a big man that's not hyper-athletic that becomes a liability. Maybe that's part of what Ainge was seeing when he traded him a couple years ago. Sure Perkins helps against the Howards and Bynums of the world but that's only two teams and as the Thunder continue to develop, I think they continue to beat those two teams with or without Perkins (notable exception if Dallas somehow ends up with Howard). The other big men you named don't require a Perkins to stop them - Ibaka is fine. (...)- a Tayshaun Prince type would be perfect IMO. (...)

I still dont understand why people think it would be a good idea for the Lakers to lose one of their big men. They need more athletic wings. If they had the wing players of say, Memphis they wouldve played against the Heat.

The Laker problem is that especially Bynum hasnt made the commitment to winning just like Timmy and Shaq made all those years ago. That is to dominate on BOTH ends of the floor. For those who know or want to find out; remember or check out the Nets-Spurs final. You see Timmy bustin' his ass back on D to stop fast breaks. As a result the Nets running game never got into it because a big was always back to protect the basket.

And, Jaime. didnt Garnet prove that a dominant big man can really hurt the Heat? Garnet is like 43!

Also the dont need a Tyshaun type player. They have 2 of them already; Durant and Thabo! This was a very valuable learning experience for the young Thunder. They saw what it takes. Now lets see if Westbrook, Durant and Harden can become defensive the stalwarts they need to overcome a team like the Heat. No reason why the cant become very good defensive players.

[Greywolf2375]

I'm not so sure. Think the playoffs this year reflected a further movement away from the lumbering big man.

I figured that was why he lost like 30lbs before this season began - the big, wide body worked for how the C's played but OKC was far quicker and he needed to be able to keep up. Unfortunately for him changing his body doesn't change his skills, he is still a center of the lane banger. If he can somehow expand his repertoire, he can have value to them.

Course, they may still not want to keep him since they'd probably still be better off making a project out of a pick rather than a 9 year vet with a potential hip problem.

[Rhom]

All this talk of the Thunder getting better... and none of the Heat. All the talk I hear about Ray Allen is that he is very likely to end up in Miami. It would be a great fit for him physically since he won't be required to play the kind of minutes that he is needed in Boston. It would be a definite upgrade to slot him into the minutes that Mike Miller has been playing.

[Maithanet]

All this talk of the Thunder getting better... and none of the Heat. All the talk I hear about Ray Allen is that he is very likely to end up in Miami. It would be a great fit for him physically since he won't be required to play the kind of minutes that he is needed in Boston. It would be a definite upgrade to slot him into the minutes that Mike Miller has been playing.

There's no question that a healthy Ray Allen playing 15 minutes a game could still be deadly.

Is there any chance that Nash to Miami will happen? That sounds like the rumor that would pop up regardless of whether there is even a snowball's chance of it being true. Would the Heat risk minutes for young guys like Chalmers and Cole so that an aging guy who plays very little defense could get on the floor? I'm not sure. Would Nash be willing to come off the bench? Likewise not sure. But I'd rather he go there than the Knicks or Lakers.

[Exa Inova]

All this talk of the Thunder getting better... and none of the Heat. All the talk I hear about Ray Allen is that he is very likely to end up in Miami. It would be a great fit for him physically since he won't be required to play the kind of minutes that he is needed in Boston. It would be a definite upgrade to slot him into the minutes that Mike Miller has been playing.

Ray is the better shooter but Miller is the better rebounder. Since James can play the 4 (and the other 4 positions also but that besides the point now) Miller can play the 3 spot leaving room for wade at 2 and chalmers on point.

With Ray the would be playing without a point guard. That wouldnt have to be a problem but the offense can get stagnent if James handles the ball all the time. And in order to have James play off the ball, where he's much more dangerous, they need a point guard.

But in all; Ray to the Heat would make the Heat even more dangerous.

[Exa Inova]

There's no question that a healthy Ray Allen playing 15 minutes a game could still be deadly.

Is there any chance that Nash to Miami will happen? That sounds like the rumor that would pop up regardless of whether there is even a snowball's chance of it being true. Would the Heat risk minutes for young guys like Chalmers and Cole so that an aging guy who plays very little defense could get on the floor? I'm not sure. Would Nash be willing to come off the bench? Likewise not sure. But I'd rather he go there than the Knicks or Lakers.

Nash to the Heat would be a mistake. The heat thrive on defense. Nash not so. Let him go to NY. Reunite him with Amare.

[Rhom]

There's no question that a healthy Ray Allen playing 15 minutes a game could still be deadly.

Is there any chance that Nash to Miami will happen? That sounds like the rumor that would pop up regardless of whether there is even a snowball's chance of it being true. Would the Heat risk minutes for young guys like Chalmers and Cole so that an aging guy who plays very little defense could get on the floor? I'm not sure. Would Nash be willing to come off the bench? Likewise not sure. But I'd rather he go there than the Knicks or Lakers.

Broussard (so take it for what its worth) said that the Heat will only have a $3.1 million mid-level exception available this off-season. He figures Nash would get more than that elsewhere. He never mentioned that Nash has plenty of MVP's and money... what he doesn't have is a ring. If I were Nash, I'd try to piggy-back onto the LeBron train while I can.

ETA: But yes, I agree with Exa... while I see why Nash would want to go to Miami, I'm not sure I see why the Heat would want him.

The Tayshaun talk sent me into full-blown sentimental UK Homer mode. If you've not seen it, Tayshaun went crazy on UNC in 2001. Honestly one of the best 2 minute stretches of shooting you'll ever see at any level.

[Maithanet]

If I were Nash, I'd try to piggy-back onto the LeBron train while I can.

ETA: But yes, I agree with Exa... while I see why Nash would want to go to Miami, I'm not sure I see why the Heat would want him.

He is a defensive liability, although neither Chalmers nor Cole are great defenders either. I could see them wanting Nash as a bench player, he would be very very useful to getting the main guys some rest because Nash could take so much of the offensive load.

But I agree that the salary cap issues for the Heat will continue to be a problem. If Mike Miller retires (and I think he will) then that would clear up some room for them. But the Heat have to be thinking about adding another big man. Haslem, Joel Anthony and Ronny Turiaf are simply not going to cut it against some teams. I don't know who they could get for the money, but I imagine there must be some aging veteran big man with at least an average skill set who would want to sign on and help get that ring. Lamar Odom? He has a couple rings, but his career needs something and he might enjoy Miami.

[Rhom]

and he might enjoy Miami.

I think that would be the key. I don't see Lamar going somewhere like Minnesota or even OKC. He needs the bright lights and the glitz and glamour. Outside of LA or New York, Miami is the one place in the league that provides that in spades.

Now... does that mean he could be an effective part of a team? I don't know. But then, I'm not entirely certain why LA dumped him for a bucket of clams either. :dunno:

[Exa Inova]

Totally unrelated but still.

Isnt Dwight Howard a free agent coming season? I have visions of him joining the C's. And Monta Ellis also (Ray coming of the bench).