[Book Spoilers] Is SanSan Dead and Buried?

[Grail King]

I think some of you are too hard on the producers, and the comment of they are men after all was really sexist .

I've always looked at this relationship from a fathers view, no way would I want my 12-18 year old hook up with someone with so many issues as Sandor has and I think that's the tack they are using for the show.

We still have the death of the Hound and quiet isle so let it play out, the end should match the book if they have the info GRRM gave them and GRRM was in on this episode.

[jons nissa]

the way this scene plays out, all those viewers who thought they were 'onto' something in that episode will now be back to thinking that Sansa is a complete idiot.

i don't believe that will happen. i am by no means a huge sansa lover but no one can deny that sansa shows true leadership in last night's episode. she is far more queenly than cersei was (which is exactly how that played out in the books). sansa is clearly growing and adapting.

but yes, it is puzzling why she doesn't go with sandor especially after saying she doesn't believe he will hurt her. curious to see if and how they will address that next week.

It does, but the dynamic is totally changed and not as half as interesting as in the one in the book. There's nothing really special about it as it is now...

why must it be all or nothing? i found their relationship special in the books and i find it special in the show. but i never thought they loved each other or expected some sort of romance from them. westeros is shown as a place where kindness, affection and loyalty are detrimental to one's life. still, sandor dares to show his vulnerable side to sansa and stands by her as much as he can. she in turns dares to be honest with sandor and may be the only one to respond to him softly. they both are each other's lifeline to all that they secretly hold dear (which i believe explains why he went to her room and why she keeps his cloak). how is that not special?

must it involve romance?

[Soiled Septa]

Does this mean the end of SanSan?

i think hbo has shown very clearly that this is not a ship.

The way I see it, a "ship" is in the hands of the fans. It does not matter what Martin writes or HBO shows us. If we sense an attraction, for whatever reason, the "ship" is there.

I do not consider myself a shipper at all but I love the dynamic between The Hound and Sansa. As for the Blackwater episode, I think that shippers have more to grasp onto. "I'll take you to Winterfell" (Swoon) :drool:

[Kittykatknits]

but those are all character changes or modifications. a relationship change would be a major plot change. however, since robb/tylisa and dany are still up in the air, i may change my tune after next week's episode. i doubt it though. from all the side glances tylisa throws, i still expect her to be part of the plan to destablize robb and i expect dany to still have enough of a khalasar to move on with.

You mean relationship changes like between Tyrion and Shae, Joff and Cersei, Robb and Talisa -who is a completely new character? We don't know yet about Jon and Ygritte, I think that one is to soon to say right now.

[Chelly]

I said much of my thoughts on the SanSan(dirty word :drunk: ) scene in the episode discussion, but I'd like to go in more detail about it. Looks like I found the right place :D . I really loved this episode. Its one of my favorites in the series so far, but I was expecting more from the Sansan scene. I don't think the scene would have looked as good on the show than in the books, so I understand the need to change some of it, but he was presented so...KNIGHTLY. That is my main issue, I think. Shunning the evil king/fiance and then offering her a straight up faitrytale type rescue and then whisk her away back home and safe from the evil fiance while protecting her and defending her honor along the way. Her not going with him makes no sense in the context of the show.

If she stayed, there would be two options.

Stannis wins: At best, Stannis won't harm her(he won't treat her unkindly at least), but he will still keep her as hostage and use her as leverage against her brother and the North's cause. There is a worst case scenario but she's unaware of that, she doesn't know about Mel, R'hollor sacrifices, or Stannis' willingness to go along with it and what might happen to her if Robb refuses to bend the knee or compromise.

Lannisters win: At best: Then she's stuck in the same predicament except THERE IS NO HOUND to stand between her and her king or his sick desires. Joff made it clear he doesn't give a shit what happens to her as this was demonstrated during the riot. He was going to leave her out there to be beaten, raped, killed or possibly all three. It was Sandor who came through for her as he had in the past, stopping her from making a fatal error in attempting to push Joff of the balcony(last season) and backing her up in her bullshit reason for why Joff shouldn't kill Dontos. Now she can marry Joff and he's allowed even more freedom as her husband to abuse her as he likes. Worst case scenario: uuumm, they find a reason to have her executed.

In the book, we can totally understand why, regardless of her shitty predicament, she chooses to not go with him. He's scary, drunk, threatening, and had put a blade to her throat. Also, there is the huge promise of Dontos and his plan to have her escape. She has a hope to hold on to, so why would she risk it for this very unstable and unpredictable drunk whose motives and what he wants from her are not very clear. Honestly, the way he is presented on the show at moment and in the past makes her look dumb for not going with him. He was planning to take her HOME! Yes, Winterfell is less than an ideal place at the moment, but his point to was to bring her back to her family and loved ones.

I'm sorry, but I think I may have strayed from the topic a little. I don't think SanSan is "dead", but I don't think SanSan is ever going to fully happen either. I love the interactions between the two because I felt that both were very crucial to each other's growth and transformations, Sandor for starting to become a slightly better person and Sansa for shedding her naive fantasy and preconceived notions of beauty, good, evil, love, hate thus forcing her to grow up. I can't see these two ever becoming an "item" but I can see them developing a very deep and intimate(emotionally!) companionship of sorts. He's always played a protector type role for her which I love and I actually prefer to keep the possibility of a romantic attraction/attachment very ambiguous than it being front and center. It actually makes SanSan much more interesting and compelling for me. Perhaps I'm a romance masochist. :lol:

Don't fret SanSan fans. I'm sure this won't be the last of them. I think Sansa dropping her doll represented her immediately regretting her decision and understanding everything he has said to her. This shows some promise to me if she's accepting and taking in some value of his words to her. ;)

[Fragile Bird]

I agree with what you are saying Chelly. But I'm curious, Dontos has disappeared - what does that mean about escape? Will they bring Dontos back in Season 3, having left him out more or less in Season 2 just so that fewer balls are being juggled plot-wise? I see speculation that Shae has replaced Dontos - the thought that Shae would deliver Sansa into LF's hands makes sense in some ways, if we see Sansa and Tyrion marry, and Shae sees this as an avenue to get rid of a rival and yet help someone she seems to be warming to. They have already changed Shae so much, book Shae certainly wouldn't do it.

But I really miss the fierceness of Sandor. In the HBO series, yes, he's the fierce warrior, but he's not that mix of fierceness/angry man/simmering brother hater/despiser of knights in the way book Sandor is.

I constantly repeat to myself what my girlfriend's then 16 year old kept saying to me about Harry Potter - HP the book and HP the movies are not the same thing.

[Balefont]

They've spent more time on Sandor/ Sansa than they would need to were that relationship not important, considering everything else that's been cut from the TV series.

It exists to exploit the whole white knight saving the princess trope but not to the extent that there is an intent for a romance. It's more to teach Sansa that there is more to a person than how they look. Cute Joffrey is a bastard and ugly Sandor is (somewhat) chivalrous. That's it. I think the show is doing a better job drawing those lines than perhaps the books may have. However, in the books, you never get a physical attraction reaction from Sansa during ANY of her POV chapters when she is interacting with the Hound. She just doesn't feel at all for him like some here hope and imply.

[Maroucia]

why must it be all or nothing? i found their relationship special in the books and i find it special in the show. but i never thought they loved each other or expected some sort of romance from them. westeros is shown as a place where kindness, affection and loyalty are detrimental to one's life. still, sandor dares to show his vulnerable side to sansa and stands by her as much as he can. she in turns dares to be honest with sandor and may be the only one to respond to him softly. they both are each other's lifeline to all that they secretly hold dear (which i believe explains why he went to her room and why she keeps his cloak). how is that not special?

must it involve romance?

I was not talking about romance since at this point in ACOK, there isn’t really any to say the truth.

The SanSan relationship is a complex one because it involves a weird mix of trust and fear on Sansa’s part, while the Hound wants to protect her but is also torn between his not caring persona and another deeply hidden part of him that can’t bear to see this poor girl being mistreated all the time. This situation creates a conflict in Sandor’s head that increases his rage, as we can obliviously see by the way he acts every time he’s around Sansa. Add to that a sexual tension (that is for now, only there because of Sandor’s interest) and you have the book SanSan of ACOK that is lacking in the show…

[Chelly]

I agree with what you are saying Chelly. But I'm curious, Dontos has disappeared - what does that mean about escape? Will they bring Dontos back in Season 3, having left him out more or less in Season 2 just so that fewer balls are being juggled plot-wise? I see speculation that Shae has replaced Dontos - the thought that Shae would deliver Sansa into LF's hands makes sense in some ways, if we see Sansa and Tyrion marry, and Shae sees this as an avenue to get rid of a rival and yet help someone she seems to be warming to. They have already changed Shae so much, book Shae certainly wouldn't do it.

Exactly, the lack of Dontos is strange. Why even bring him up at his point? The lack of Dontos just adds to the wtf-ness of her choice to remain at KL. I still think Dontos will have a part in her escape since he was introduced and it was made clear he owes her big time. Shae being involved is interesting. Maybe she will have a hand at Sansa's escape, but I hope she doesn't replace Dontos because then his scene would have been pointless.

[Lyanna Stark]

However, in the books, you never get a physical attraction reaction from Sansa during ANY of her POV chapters when she is interacting with the Hound. She just doesn't feel at all for him like some here hope and imply.

No, true, this happens later on once they are separated.

[Lord Godric]

SanSan shipper may just be worse than Harmony shippers.

Just the mere fact that the relationship has got a handful of scenes shows that they haven't discarded it, which they easily could have. The outrage I see at the producers and the sexist comments about them being men seriously confuse me. I guess the only thing that would make the shipper happy is a SanSan spinoff.

[Chelly]

SanSan shipper may just be worse than Harmony shippers.

I know this is off topic, but Harmony? I can't figure it out and its bothering me.

[Maroucia]

SanSan shipper may just be worse than Harmony shippers.

Just the mere fact that the relationship has got a handful of scenes shows that they haven't discarded it, which they easily could have. The outrage I see at the producers and the sexist comments about them being men seriously confuse me. I guess the only thing that would make the shipper happy is a SanSan spinoff.

Of course blaming the producers for being men was a little strong, but nobody can contradict the fact that 95% of the shippers are women.

And again, this season Sansan scenes don't even add up to 10 minutes in total...

[Lord Godric]

Of course blaming the producers for being men was a little strong, but nobody can contradict the fact that 95% of the shippers are women.

And again, this season Sansan scenes does not even add up to 10 minutes in total...

And how much do you expect? It's not a major focus of the plot, it's not even a "relationship" in the context of the books just in the fandom. The producers and writers made the decision to include SanSan scenes when they really didn't have to - such as the scene after the Hound rescues Sansa when she thanks him and they talk. Completely unnecessary for the plot yet it was there. Like I said I think only a spinoff with ten hours completely dedicated to SanSan would appease the shippers.

[Fragile Bird]

And how much do you expect? It's not a major focus of the plot, it's not even a "relationship" in the context of the books just in the fandom. The producers and writers made the decision to include SanSan scenes when they really didn't have to - such as the scene after the Hound rescues Sansa when she thanks him and they talk. Completely unnecessary for the plot yet it was there. Like I said I think only a spinoff with ten hours completely dedicated to SanSan would appease the shippers.

I bet you don't like Nickleback either. :lol:

[Maroucia]

And how much do you expect? It's not a major focus of the plot, it's not even a "relationship" in the context of the books just in the fandom. The producers and writers made the decision to include SanSan scenes when they really didn't have to - such as the scene after the Hound rescues Sansa when she thanks him and they talk. Completely unnecessary for the plot yet it was there. Like I said I think only a spinoff with ten hours completely dedicated to SanSan would appease the shippers.

That’s not true. Just one other scene, a five minute scene and I could have been happy. As for Sandor and Sansa’s interactions, it may not be important for the bigger plots, but still it is in Sansa’s arc, and Sansa is still a POV character in the book who has an importance in the bigger story.

[brashcandy]

It exists to exploit the whole white knight saving the princess trope but not to the extent that there is an intent for a romance. It's more to teach Sansa that there is more to a person than how they look. Cute Joffrey is a bastard and ugly Sandor is (somewhat) chivalrous. That's it. I think the show is doing a better job drawing those lines than perhaps the books may have. However, in the books, you never get a physical attraction reaction from Sansa during ANY of her POV chapters when she is interacting with the Hound. She just doesn't feel at all for him like some here hope and imply.

Huh? As the books are actually what Martin wrote, and with the show devolving into ridiculously bad fan fiction, I think I'll take my cue from the former. Doing so, one cannot miss reading Sansa's thoughts later on when she and the Hound are separated: thinking of him climbing into her bed, and kissing her. We don't get a physical reaction from her because most of her thoughts on it seem to be somewhat subconscious and she doesn't crush on the Hound as she does with Loras Tyrell for instance.

***

I think the show missed a great opportunity last night to create some suspense and mystery concerning Sansa's decision to go with the Hound and whether the unkiss really happened - if indeed they're going to reference this in later seasons. As he's walking out, they could have had her say "Wait!" The effect of this being that we would not have known (until next wk) that she didn't go with him, and we would not have known precisely how they parted, meaning that a kiss could have taken place.

Ah well. To come back to Fragile Bird's question in the OP: No, Sansan is not dead and buried. It's just been fucked with.

[Lord Godric]

That’s not true. Just one other scene, a five minute scene and I could have been happy. As for Sandor and Sansa’s interactions, it may not be important for the bigger plots, but still it is in Sansa’s arc, and Sansa is still a POV character in the book who has an importance in the bigger story.

So fifteen minutes instead of ten and there'd be no complaining? Then that seems like a petty complaint.

[Lyanna Stark]

. As he's walking out, they could have had her say "Wait!" The effect of this being that we would not have known (until next wk) that she didn't go with him, and we would not have known precisely how they parted, meaning that a kiss could have taken place.

Instead, Sansa looks like the Dumbest Person in Westeros and she is going to get slagged off to hell and back again in the next season for not loving Tyrion, her awesomesauce husband.

(It was actually my SO who complained to me about this first as he could not for the life of him understand why this was changed, in light of what a huge fan favourite Tyrion is.)

[Wouter]

The problem with Sansa's scenes in this episode is that she a)implied that she was praying for Tyrion's death (a departure from the books, where she prayed for his safety at this point, adding him as last when she prayed in the sept) and b)that non-book readers will not understand why she refused to escape with Sandor. Especially when it comes out that Sandor indeed escaped and Sansa is still stuck as a captive, next week. Right now, quite a few people watching the show think she actually went along. What reason does show-Sansa have to not go with him, other than she might be afraid of the danger (but book-Sansa is actually brave)?

As for Sandor, like many characters he has been softened to some degree - much like Tyrion has been softened. Some things just wouldn't come over very well on TV, I suspect, and apparently the producers don't want the audience to lose sympathy with a number of characters. Sandor apparently is one of them, which is not necessarily bad for any future involvement with Sansa.