[Book Spoilers] Is SanSan Dead and Buried?

[Lyanna Stark]

And the source material proves...what, exactly?

Different interpretations run rampant in a series like this. For example, I myself don't see a shred of romantic insinuation between Sansa & the Hound. She's terrified of him, but on some level, she is able to recognize him as protection. In the future, she thinks of him at times when she feels threatened...times when she'd be happy for his protection. She knows he's a dangerous killer, but also believes he wouldn't kill her.

No, she thinks of him in every single chapter. Just finished a reread, it's right there on the pages. Sure, you can argue that it's not transforming into something else, but that seems like personal prejudice since the text indicates otherwise, whether we like it or not. (For the record, I don't think he's amazing or 100% suitable either, but I don't argue with the text.)

And with regards to the non-kiss, she remembers his lips as being "cruel." He left her with a "cruel" kiss and a bloody cloak - - hardly the stuff of romance.

Never said romance, but she clearly feels something for him, if you add up all the details. For instance the ones in my linked post. Like the one where Myranda Royce talks about marriage beds and having sex and she thinks of first Tyrion and then Sandor and agrees that she knows what goes on. What is your explanation for that? It comes completely out of left field.

I believe Sansa romanticizes that moment (invents the memory of a kiss) because she needs to cling to the dying remnants of her girlish ideals about knights swooping in and saving ladies. The Hound came drunkenly and forcefully at her, threatened her with a knife, but at his core, he wouldn't have hurt her and was trying to help her. That's what she believes, though that doesn't stop her from inventing the memory of a "cruel" kiss. I think that word is pretty significant. She could have remembered it being surprisingly gentle, or even surprisingly passionate; instead, she took the scary route. That kiss, nor the Hound, isn't something she'd be longing for, IMO.

No, because her specifically wishing later on that he was there is in fact not her wishing that he was there....or? She compares almost every other man she meets to him, from Ser Loras, to Dontos, to Tyrion, Lothor Brune, Bronze Yohn Royce etc.

I don't understand why you think she ought to have remembered it as being gentle when it wasn't. The point is, she's whitewashing events, he is whitewashing events separately while with Arya and they're both spending some significant time thinking about each other. In the text.

The Hound, on the other hand, later regrets not raping her that night. Had he gone through with that atrocity, I wonder how different Sansa's memories would have been.

My goodness. People do need to learn to read, especially to really read the word "BEFORE" as in "before leaving her to the imp", i.e. "anything including murder would have been better than leaving her for the imp". As he's also wishing Arya to kill him at the time, he's going to be suitably dramatic to get her to stab him. But as we know, she does not.

Also, if he is regretting not raping her, that means people actually think his plan was to rape her, so the plan then was 1. rape her. 2. offer escape from KL 3. ?? 4. profit. Brilliant plan?

This dream speaks volumes, IMO, as to Sansa's views of the Hound. She dreams of Joffrey dying then morphing into Robb dying; quite a horror. She dreams of Tyrion (an undesirable) climbing into her bed; he morphs into the Hound and she wakes immediately. Had that part of her dream been something she'd have wanted to continue, I don't think she'd have awaken. For instance, had Tyrion morphed into Ser Loras, her unconscious mind may have allowed the dream to continue on a little longer. It would have been pleasant, as Ser Loras was someone she's attracted to. But it was a disturbing dream all around, and the Hound's appearance was the breaking point, which caused her to wake up.

Sure, you continue to think that, but in that case, answer me this: Myranda Royce's comment later in AFFC, runs like this:

"I do need another husband, I had one once, but I killed him."

"You did?" Alayne said, shocked.

"Oh yes. He died on top of me. In me, if truth be told. You do know what goes on in a marriage bed, I hope?"

She thought of Tyrion, and of the Hound and how he'd kissed her, and gave a nod.

Now, on its own, I'd say the dream is ambiguous. Add it up with the Sweetrobin kiss and the section above, plus that Sansa seems to think of Sandor in a generally positive light as of AFFC and you have....? Sure, you can deny it, I mean people deny that Jon is the son of Lyanna and Rhaegar as well, but that doesn't mean it makes sense based on the text.

[Lyanna Stark]

and let's not forget what is actually written on that night:

“I could keep you safe,” he rasped. “They’re all afraid of me. No one would hurt you again, or I’d kill them.” He yanked her closer, and for a moment she thought he meant to kiss her. He was too strong to fight. She closed her eyes, wanting it to be over, but nothing happened. “Still can’t bear to look, can you?” she heard him say. He gave her arm a hard wrench, pulling her around and shoving her down onto the bed. “I’ll have that song. Florian and Jonquil, you said.” His dagger was out, poised at her throat. “Sing, little bird. Sing for your little life.”

turning that into a memory of first kiss is really problematic which is what i think grrm is trying to say about the scene.

Yes, I was as baffled as many others with that development the first time I read through the novels. But I cannot deny that it's there, any more than I feel I can deny that Aegon is fake or that Jon is the son of Lyanna and Rhaegar.

It's not a question about liking it or not liking it, as if I'd had my way, Aegon would NOT be fake, for instance. I was devastated that he is.

The thing is, Sansa does turn it into a memory of a kiss and she does think positively about him once they are separated. I'm not making this up either, since my SO picked up on it much faster than I did the first time he read the novels.

[WetHair]

In one of GRRM's interviews or comments at a conference (which I now can't find to link to) he said that he thought The Hound WAS loved. He didn't say specifically by Sansa but she is the only person to fit the bill other than perhaps his parents, but I very much doubt that was who he was alluding to. It made me feel happier for him.

[Tarandor]

In one of GRRM's interviews or comments at a conference (which I now can't find to link to) he said that he thought The Hound WAS loved. He didn't say specifically by Sansa but she is the only person to fit the bill other than perhaps his parents, but I very much doubt that was who he was alluding to. It made me feel happier for him.

I think I remember what you are referring to, and I thought that maybe he was referring to the readers of the series--that perhaps he was surprised at how much people liked him. BUT I could be remembering something completely different all together. I probably am.

Hah, this seems to be an extremely touchy thing. The romantic in me has suffered massive blows throughout the entire series so I find myself extremely skeptical of a "happily ever after" between these two (or anyone else for that matter). I'm curious to see how her scenes will play out later on when she does start to think of him often, or if they will just dismiss it entirely. Time will tell.

I do NOT think that GRRM was using this episode to squander anyone's thoughts of the Sandor and Sansa relationship (whatever it is), he was simply using what he had to work with. We didn't get the song because it was never mentioned prior. Fair enough. Otherwise, the Sandor scenes in this episode were top notch, I'm so happy that he got some screen time, and Rory McCann was just awesome. Love that guy.

[Lord Godric]

:bang: :bang: If I had a dollar for everytime someone interpreted this relationship wrong... well... I would be able to buy a lot more aspirin for my headaches.

It's a little narrow-minded to suggest that your interpretation of the relationship between two characters is the 'right' way. People are going to interpret things differently, that's the nature of fiction.

[1234567]

Finally seen the episode. Given all the cuts, if the scene was important for later in the story, why include it at all? If they never interact again, then the scene was unnecessary. Oh well, we shall see: if either the cloak or the Unkiss appear in Season 3 it may still signify something be it protector or Direwolf replacement or just weird WFT moment for those who haven't read the books.

[Grail King]

@brashcandy

:bang: :bang: If I had a dollar for everytime someone interpreted this relationship wrong... well... I would be able to buy a lot more aspirin for my headaches.

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What's to say yours is the correct interpretation? Or someone else is wrong?

I think Sansa is having subconsciously an infatuation with Sandor, he is the closest thing to her ideal of a Knight in KL, he shows he cares for her but I think more as the sister he lost in his childhood or a daughter he feels he never could have because of his disfigurement and the known perception of him in Westeros.

These are two of my favorite characters, but I look at it from a different point of view then most of the fan base here, I may be utterly wrong but I'll have to wait for George to finish this story

PS to George:

Please before I / we bite the dust.

[zuziako]

As someone said, there are no "wrong" interpretations, but you can always deny the obvious or over-interpret and be happy with yourself. As much as inappropriate Sansa-Sandor relationship may be, it's still there. At one point Sansa wants to fantasize about Loras and ends up thinking about Sandor, there are situations in which she wishes for him and compares other to him (Lyanna pointed to citations earlier). No matter how you want to see it points to affection that's connected with romance.

I guess what some fans might be unhappy about is how suddenly important this relationship became in the fandom, when, truth be told, is not the most important plot line. Well, no duh, but hell, it's the perfect fiction romance. Contrasted, inappropriate and yet at the same time fitting, with both hope and doom in store.

[Aslerys]

CODE http://images5.fanpo...362-640-427.jpg

This is the picture that I saw. Did this already happened?

I didn't see all episodes so I don't know...

[zuziako]

CODE http://images5.fanpo...362-640-427.jpg

This is the picture that I saw. Did this already happened?

I didn't see all episodes so I don't know...

WHAAAAT IS THIS?!

I'm hearing rumors there is a deleted scene! Does anyone know anything about that??

[Dornish Hen]

When Sansa dropped the doll, I took it to mean that all of her child-like notions are falling down around her also. She's just realized that The Hound would never hurt her, and what that means to her. Everything she's thought about knights and chivalry she just realized are in The Hound. (Series Hound, that is.) Between a drunk Cercei and a nice Hound, Sansa just got her world rocked!

I too am rereading the series and I found it very interesting when Lothor Brune saved her from Marrillion, she immediately thought he was The Hound there to save her. (That's as far as I've gotten. I know there are more instances!) I'm hoping that next season the writers will invent the "memories" or "visions" for Sansa so that the relationship (or whatever you'd like to call it) will continue on screen.

A girl can hope that a thing will happen!!!

[Ran]

By the costuming, I'd take it that this was an alternative shoo of the ep 8 (or maybe 7) scene where Sansa thanks him and the Hound does his thing. Differnt location, and they seem to have been directing more intensity. Why they changed it to what we eventually had on screen, I couldn't say.

[Valkyrja]

By the costuming, I'd take it that this was an alternative shoo of the ep 8 (or maybe 7) scene where Sansa thanks him and the Hound does his thing. Differnt location, and they seem to have been directing more intensity. Why they changed it to what we eventually had on screen, I couldn't say.

Aww, bummer....you are probably right. I'd love to get my hands on that version of the scene somehow! :P

[Caro99]

i think that pic is from a deleted scene in episode 3. the dress and hair are the same from her dinner with cersei, so maybe it could have happened between dinner and shae'shandmaiden intro?? but if what ran said is true then it makes me a little sad we could have had that scene which look quite faithfull to the books regardless of how much i love the scene in episode 7 where she thanks him...

i'm sorry if i got the name wrong, but i think leia a few pages back said how maybe sansa will end up as a queen, and well sandor just doesn't seem the sort of guy men would want as their king consort (however much i think they would love their kind and gentle queen) but sansa being a queen can still allow her to keep sandor as her paramour one day :P

and someone metioned this before, whichi hadn't thought about and it's brilliant- the cloak sandor gave her back on episode 4!!! maybe there is indeed a chance of seeing her wrap herself in his cloak either next week or in S3!! yes :D

Hopefully we will get to see sansa thinking about sandor at least once one day on the show. But even if it happens, to the people who haven’t read the books it will still come out so unlike the books L they may think she is regretting the lost opportunity of not accepting his offer cause of the winterfell promise, rather than because he just has a special place in her thoughts and hearts, like in the books. Winterfell was not promised there, only maybe the north and then maybe riverrun or the vale or something, so it’s nice to read sansa thinking of sandor cause of himself rather than of him as a tool to go home (sort of like sandor wanting sansa for herself, not her claim to winterfell and the north) :wub:

[Dornish Hen]

and someone metioned this before, whichi hadn't thought about and it's brilliant- the cloak sandor gave her back on episode 4!!! maybe there is indeed a chance of seeing her wrap herself in his cloak either next week or in S3!! yes :D

As she curls up in bed and begins to cry for the loss of everything she had hoped for.

[David Selig]

It doesn't mean anything, the show is different from the books. And it's not up to Martin to change the general direction where it's going according to the showrunners. If they don't plan for SanSan, it's their call.

[Aslerys]

Aww, bummer....you are probably right. I'd love to get my hands on that version of the scene somehow! :P

Yeah I would love to see that scene too, I guess the picture proves that they really decided to tone down Sandor/ their relationship for some reason...

[Grail King]

I think they have to play it a tad safe from the books because of all the different laws in each country regarding what can be written versus what can be said visually on TV.

[Valkyrja]

Bugger. I just lost a super long post and I am much too exhausted to repeat it, so I'll just say:

They can take our songs, our blood-stained cloaks, and our unKisses.....but they canna take....our San/San!!!! :commie:

[Caro99]

As she curls up in bed and begins to cry for the loss of everything she had hoped for.

if she does this when she is married to tyrion i'm going to cry too and go read some fanfiction :blushing: i' love it but it would be so heart-breaking!

--

lol, anyways i'm probably trying to find more hint sfro george in my spare time to him foreshadowing a future between them cause i saw no one had mentioned this but it could mean something one day... the fact that sandor actually brought up sansa as a mother with sons who will one day probably kill people too made me wonder if sandor won't be the one who sired them? she can be the lady of winterfell and he can be her sworn shield or winterfell's master-at-arms, or they can get married, but either way their sons would (and maybe even a girl like arya) need to learn how to kill, so.. i don't know, just some random thoughts i came up with :dunno: