US Politics: the waiting-for-SCOTUS-to-exhale edition

[Robin Of House Hill]

DW,

So, officers are really bad at coming up with pretexts to pull over drivers who happen to have too much mellinin aren't they?

Then, the officers should be properly instructed on how to perform their duty. You seem to be implying that all police officers are naturally racist and will, therefore, invent pretexts to stop people, because their real intent is not to enforce traffic safety or the like, but to harass people based on racial bias.

[Robin Of House Hill]

likely should move the NAFTA in the direction of the EU's free movement of persons to go with goods, services, & capital.

I think it would behoove us to take up arms to prevent that. The EU is already suffering from that nonsense.

[Merentha]

Well, what is the current procedure if you don't have your license or registration for your vehicle when youre pulled over? There's no easy answer, but I do believe illegal immigrants should be penalized in some way, even if it's a penalty of absence rather than a penalty of taking away, if that makes any sense.

Driving without a license can be crime, as it should be, as the license you are carrying is explicitly a license to...drive. Iirc PA, its a 75 USD fine, and they might waive it if you produce that within 30 days.

Then, the officers should be properly instructed on how to perform their duty. You seem to be implying that all police officers are naturally racist and will, therefore, invent pretexts to stop people, because their real intent is not to enforce traffic safety or the like, but to harass people based on racial bias.

Arizona PD do have a pretty racist image. And, well, New Orleans PD still have FBI observers imbedded since the "NOPD's mishandling of officer-involved shooting investigations was so blatant and egregious that it appeared intentional in some respects" and "has been largely indifferent to widespread violations of law and policy by its officers" (quotes from the US DoJ report). So yeah, I question giving an institution that has incredibly bad self-correction issues, a relatively uneducated corps, a culture designed to discourage whistleblowing, and a generally significant problem with racism broad reign to investigate anyone based on skin color. It is incredibly easy to pull someone over on the simplest pretext. Move to avoid hitting a bicyclist and crossed the center line? Technically cause to pull you over. Didn't stop for long enough at a stop sign for their satisfaction? Drove 1 mph over? Cause. Drove exactly the speed limit or slightly under? Marijuana smokers tend to stop early and drive slowly, therefore, cause. "Smelled something"? Cause.

edit: Nothing Arpaio does is right. It might be popular among racist, rich old people, but that doesn't mean its right. And fortunately, the DoJ agrees.

[Robin Of House Hill]

So, let's fix the PDs that need to be fixed. I've got no problem with that.

edit: Nothing Arpaio does is right. It might be popular among racist, rich old people, but that doesn't mean its right. And fortunately, the DoJ agrees.

1. Your understanding of old people is questionable. Had you said fearful rich, old people, I might have agreed.

2. Is that the same DoJ that refuses to enforce immigration laws that are on the books? If it is, I don't care what they agree with.

[WrathOfTinyKittens]

Ok so it seems we're talking past one another

DW, I think most here would agree that illegal immigration in the abstract is a problem, and I believe the problem should be addressed. (I personally favor amnesty but that's not the point.)

However.

The specific law in question is what we have issue with. Yes, dealing with illegal immigration should be a priority, but this is a racist law passed in a heavily racist state for the seeming implicit purpose of adding a legal veneer to the practice of institutionalized racial profiling.

Am I reading a lot into it? Yes. But the state of Joe Arpaio hasn't earned the benefit of the doubt.

[The Progressive]

BTW, I highlighted that last sentence, because it is another issue that needs be dealt with...that someone born here is automatically a citizen, even if their parents are not.

So what do you propose deathwalker? Mass-arrest and deportation of the illegal parents? Revoke the citizenship of the anchor babies?

[Merentha]

So, let's fix the PDs that need to be fixed. I've got no problem with that.

1. Your understanding of old people is questionable. Had you said fearful rich, old people, I might have agreed.

Fearful of what? Mexican immigrants?

And the PDs that need to be fixed include the MCSO. One of the Arizona PDs in question.

[Howling Mad]

deathwalker,

never in your life have you been willing to wash the dishes, mow the lawns, pick the lettuce, prune the trees, make the beds, pack out the trash or the many other valuable jobs that in particular hispanic immigrants (legal and illegal) provide for america.

i have had coworkers tell me about their 17 days walks to the united states from el salvador. i have had them tell me about sneaking across the border under cover of darkness to have a true chance at success.

you too can get in line.

not everyone sneaking into the united states is doing so to defraud it or commit drug crimes. until american citizens want to do the work that these people are doing you have nothing.

Yes but everyone who enters illegally does commit a crime. Then they soak up our tax dollars by using our roads, schools, jails, hospitals, and other public services. For the record I have picked crops, cut wood, washed dishes, dug ditches, worked cattle, and irrgated at 0'dark thrity in the morning.

ETA The US does not need immigration reform it needs its immigtation laws enforced.

[ThinkerX]

]Ah, now we get to the heart of it. We don't want to pay higher prices, so we look the other way when people enter the country illegally.

Nope.

Not unless you view half the businesses in Arizona shutting down completely as an acceptable price to pay to keep illegal immigrants out.

Then, the officers should be properly instructed on how to perform their duty. You seem to be implying that all police officers are naturally racist and will, therefore, invent pretexts to stop people, because their real intent is not to enforce traffic safety or the like, but to harass people based on racial bias

Gotta call you out on this one. I've known a number of cops down through the years, and they ranged from 'closet racists' to 'full out bigots'. If implimented they would have seen this as a green light to really nasty things - things that would have tripped off messes on the scale of the Rodney King Riots in LA a few decades ago.

The other thing getting overlooked here is that our political/business elite *REALLY* love illegal immigrants - its a wonderful issue to get ignorant morons hyped up about come election time, plus it lets them hire people for pathetic pay and treat them like dirt with little fear of retaliation because EVERYTHING is stacked in their favor.

[lokisnow]

illegal immigrants contribute more to the economy than they take out of the economy in services.

[TrackerNeil]

While we're all waiting to see what the Court will do to the ACA, Jonathan Chait in my view sums up quite neatly the Republican attitide on health care. Of particular note:

What is being disputed is whether the punishments to the losers in the market system should include, in addition to these other things, a denial of access to non-emergency medical treatment. The Republican position is that it should. They may not want a woman to have to suffer an untreated broken ankle for lack of affordable treatment. Likewise, I don’t want people to be denied nice televisions or other luxuries. I just don’t think high-definition television or nice clothing are goods that society owes to one and all. That is how Republicans think about health care.

[NestorMakhnosLovechild]

Yes but everyone who enters illegally does commit a crime. Then they soak up our tax dollars by using our roads, schools, jails, hospitals, and other public services. For the record I have picked crops, cut wood, washed dishes, dug ditches, worked cattle, and irrgated at 0'dark thrity in the morning.

ETA The US does not need immigration reform it needs its immigtation laws enforced.

For what it's worth, undocumented immigrants end up paying most types of taxes anyway. They pay sales taxes when they buy things from the store .They pay real estate taxes directly if they own property, and indirectly if they rent, as they end up paying the property owner's real estate taxes as they are incorporated into the cost of rent. As for income tax - billions of dollars are collected from undocumented workers who voluntarily file tax returns (I used to help them file them as part of a Legal Services program) with an Individual Taxpayer Identification Number (ITIN). Undocumented workers who are on payroll or who work with an appropriated Social Security Number actually end up paying into Social Security even though they are ineligible to draw benefits from the SS system. The lack of health insurance which causes a strain on public health facilities is endemic to low income individuals in the current US health care system, which is not specifically contingent on legal status. Of course, their status as "illegals" pushes them into the shadows and artificially depresses income tax filing and participation in health insurance - which makes the easiest solution blanket amnesty and citizenship.*

*Of course, the real reason for blanket amnesty and citizenship is that it's unjust to prevent the free movement of peoples consistent with private property rights, which means, in effect, open borders.

[Durckad]

illegal immigrants contribute more to the economy than they take out of the economy in services.

Maybe on a macro level, but I'm not so sure that's true on a local level.

[Robin Of House Hill]

There are so many people that are so eager to see hordes of people come here illegally and steal the fruits of the labor of others, I'm at a loss for words. I only know one thing. The only correct solution to the problem is to seal the borders and remove every person here illegally.

[Lightning Lord]

For those who are more educated about this:

What's the theoretical result of removing 10 million people from the "Demand" side of the US economy? In a quick search, I found $150 billion in consumer spending from illegal immigrants, is that accurate, if so, can you put that in some kind of perspective for me?

[Hereward]

I think it would behoove us to take up arms to prevent that. The EU is already suffering from that nonsense.

The EU is suffering for any number of reasons, but the (limited) free movement of people is not one of them.

[Maltaran]

Hereward is defending the EU? I seem to have stumbled into bizarro-land.

[Newsun]

There are so many people that are so eager to see hordes of people come here illegally and steal the fruits of the labor of others, I'm at a loss for words. I only know one thing. The only correct solution to the problem is to seal the borders and remove every person here illegally.

That's all well and good to want. Got a practical solution? Hell, I don't think one that follows your plans exists. If there was a practical, cost effective solution to this problem that would involve in some way penalizing illegal immigrants, I would most likely be all for it. But I really don't think such a solution exists.

[The Iceman of the North]

I think it would behoove us to take up arms to prevent that. The EU is already suffering from that nonsense.

The free movement of labour within the EU is one of the factors that reduces the effect of the current crisis. What exactly are these problems you believe the EU is suffering from due to free movement of labour?

[Ormond]

Hereward is defending the EU? I seem to have stumbled into bizarro-land.

He's not defending the EU. He's defending the "(limited) free movement of people."