From Pawn to Player: Rethinking Sansa XI

[Lady Lea]

QC, first - I miss the lioness avatar! She was so perfect for Cersei, with that "don't you dare touch my kill" look.

I completely agree with you that, morally, Sandor's actions, as well as many other characters' actions in the series, are reprehensible. I think morality and justice are related, but not identical, concepts, though, and the question was about justice in the series.

The problem I have with the BwB's treatment of Sandor was not that they were beating up on an innocent guy who never did anything wrong. It was that, whatever their founding purpose, they were basically a pack of thieves led by an increasingly inhuman zombie. Their version of "justice" was a sham - certainly, killing Mycah was morally wrong, but it wasn't illegal. As another poster mentioned, if they were going to try to charge Sandor with a crime, it should have been desertion under fire. They didn't. Instead, they charged him with something the crown - the absolute authority in Westeros - told him to do. His very logical affirmative defense was that he was carrying out the crown's order by executing the person who had injured the prince. In a modern analog, would you charge a Secret Service agent with murder for taking out someone who tried to assassinate the President? Maybe, but he'd have a strong defense. Would killing that would-be assassin still be morally wrong? Maybe. What if he were insane and, under US law, not responsible for his actions? My point is that illegal / punishable under the law and moral / going to hell (or whatever happens to bad people) are not necessarily the same.

I think that giving us the opportunity to explore these kinds of questions, especially in the context of characters we may feel strongly for, is one of the great things about these books.

The Secret Service/President analogy is the exact one that popped in my mind while I was writing the posts but I didn't want to start something. Anyway.

Caro, I'm listening to the Podcast right now, thanks a lot for the link!

ETA: I'm writing the highlights of the podcast if you guys want to discuss it later, I think it provides some interesting points...

[Lady Lea]

Some interesting points made in the podcast, for the people who can't listen to it:

- They talk about how it is easier to relate to/understand Sansa when seeing a real person play her

- Stefan Sasse says he was a Sansa hater before the show because: "I was firmly in the camp of Sansa haters [...] because her storyline seemed so disrupting to the pace, you want to read the cool stuff, there's Eddard going on with his great things, and Tyrion, and the war and stuff. It's like Catelyn a little bit, the sense that her chapters seemed to take you out on your first read. She does such stupid things; what she talks about, it doesn't interest you, there's a big story going on, and she thinks about (??? sorry didn't catch that). It seems that she is just a character that is there to get on your nerves". He then says the he only learned to start to appreciate her in his second or third reread, when she went to the Eyre and "started to evolve".

- He talks about her description in the RPG as a damsel in distress and princess in the castle, there to be protected from monsters and waiting for a prince to rescue her, but the prince is not coming.

- He talks about how if you open yourself to the story, it's a disturbing experience to be in the head of an 11-yo who has been abused the way Sansa has. "I don't know exactly why, but it is hard to open yourself up to the story of an 11 or 12-yo girl that gets so abused and whose head is stuffed full of all this girl stuff. Especially when you have Arya as the cool counterpart, the next thing that makes Sansa unpopular I guess, because Arya is just so much more interesting and exciting. But if you warm up to her and her storyline Sansa is really something".

- Sean T Collins agrees that Sansa's chapters "take you of the action-based flow of the narrative".

- STC quote: "When you go into ASOIAF, I know that I went in because I was told it was an epic fantasy that simply was more adult in tone [...]. Because I went in [ASOIAF] with that set of preconceptions, a storyline like Sansa's, that doesn't fit in the epic-fantasy narrative about, you know, Ned, and those conflicting forces, it can feel like an interruption of what you're really there to see. It's only as time goes by, and you read more of the books, or you think more about what you've read, and you realise how intent Martin is on deconstructing and critiquing the ideas behind the genre and the ideas behind the society quantical (?) by the genre, that you realise how important Sansa is, the way Sansa's personal journey reflects the journey that a lot of us take as readers, as we learn about Westeros. She has been trained since she was a very little girl, a certain way that the world is supposed to work, these gallant knights and princes and these beautiful shy princesses, and courtly romance and songs and pageantries. She didn't choose that curriculum, that was given to her by Ned and Catelyn, and her Septa and Maester and so on. Her growth as a person is a sort of a journey of disillusionment. I think that's true for us as well, we learn about Westeros, we learn a lot of things were not as they seem,they're not all that they're cracked up to be, there's obviously a lot of ugliness going on, a lot of the history we're coming to learn is apparently just as unreliable as Sansa's songs. And that turns out to be a very important message".

- STC identifies one of the major themes in ASOIAF is the discrepancy between how men and women are treated in this society, and Sansa puts that in the spotlight.

- He thinks Sansa is not all that important in terms of plot, but more in terms of deconstructing the genre, and critiquing the society and men/women/fantasy/history.

- Stefan says that it is Sansa that introduces the reader to the notion that knights are not heroes and good. He also says that it is through Sansa that we get many of the injustices of the world (he gives the example of Robert's judgement, Lady, Mycah, Gregor killing a man in the tourney).

- He says that she has no control of her own environment, and that shows how powerless a woman can be even as a member of an important family as the Starks.

- STC says the men have a lot more power and agency than women in the series, but a lot of them are boxed in by their upbringing and heritage and restrictions of the aristocratic society.

- He says Sansa's situation of having no agency through most of the series is something nightmarish to him (meaning, he would think it was a nightmare if he had no agency like Sansa).

- He says that a major reason why people hate Sansa is because of her going to Cersei to tell her about Ned's plans of leaving, and how that is presented in the books as if that is a key stroke, the information without which Cersei would never have come out on top, when it turns out that when you read that section closely, the order of events, and who knew what and when, Sansa didn't really provide Cersei with any information that she needed. "I'm not sure why Cersei acts as though she did".

- Stefan says that that doesn't account for the hate she gets in AGOT because we only get that line from Cersei in ACOK. He thinks that a lot of people hate Sansa in AGOT because "she fits the gender cliché of a girl more than any other character in the whole books. She's so much into all the girl stuff and she embraces her identity as a girl so full-heartedly [...]. This could be a problem, especially if you have a positive identification in Arya, who rejects all of that so violently and so passionately, and she gets away with it"

- STC talks about "strong female characters". He says people tend to use that to mean a character who is strong physically or emotionally, not strongly written. He says Sansa is a stronger female character than, for example, Lara Croft.

[TO BE CONTINUED. This is the half mark of the podcast. I think it can make for some really interesting discussions]

[Lady Lea]

- Stefan talks about how Sansa does really well with Joffrey. She learned fast how to behave around him, with no one to teach her, she internalised all the rules of courtly politics, she knows when to speak and what to say, she manages to bullshit Littlefinger, she built a wall around her that no one is able to break, and that is really something.

- STC says she is a survivor, and that if anyone else in her immediate family was put in the situations she was, none of them would be alive by the end of AFFC.

- Stefan says that one thing to her advantage is that she can take abuse and work with it, and not do something rash. He gives the example of Joff forcing her to look at Ned's head and her saying that Joff could make her look but not see. Stefan thinks that it takes a lot of strenght to be able to handle that kind of thing, and says it is also a quality of Jaime's.

- Stefan thinks that at the end of AFFC she still has no agency at all. When LF says he wants her to marry HtH "there's nothing she can do about it but nod".

- STC thinks Sansa is being groomed by the circumstances in her life for big things. He thinks that it would be interesting for someone who has had very little agency throughout the story to end up with a lot of power.

- He thinks that it takes a lot of emotional intelligence and shrewdness to survive as long as Sansa does in her circumstances. It helps that she doesn't have a hot temper. "She has an innate ability to sense what's expected of her and deliver, but as she does that, to learn from it and to grow".

- Stefan thinks that she doesn't have a lot of ambition and that could be an obstacle for her in the future if she is on the way to big things. He also thinks she doesn't have as strong ties to the North as some other characters. "She's not a child of the North as the others are [...] She's more a child of the Riverlands and the South, and I can't really see her doing anything with the power she might accomplish to get". [LL note: disagree!!!!]

- STC says he can't see her as a Warrior Queen, but when the dust settles, if he had to pick who he wanted on the throne, it would be her. Because a) her sufferings have given her a tremendous ability to empathise with the sufferings of other people, and she has the political instincts needed to do something about that properly. She understands how the aristocratic world works, and not only does she have a heart, she has a brain to make her wishes come true. He can see her being an effective ruler, not that that is necessarily something that she would choose for herself.

- Stefan says that even after all the abuse Sansa endures, she maintains a good heart, and she helps people even when she's not under any obligation to, like Sweetrobin and Margaery.

- STC muses about how she doesn't really obsess about revenge or has shadenfreude. She doesn't sit around listing the name of the people who have wronged her. She wasn't thrilled about Lysa being killed, despite the fact that Lysa was about to kill her. She doesn't give in to hateful, vengeful feelings in which you take pleasure in the suffering of people who have wronged you. He says that is almost unique in the books, and you can't say the same about Jon, Dany, Arya, Cat, Brienne, etc. He says that's a good quality in a ruler, especially in Westeros where people are obsessive about revenge for wrongs done generations ago.

[OK this is it about Sansa. The rest is about Cersei. :) holy crap that turned out huuuuuuge. Brash, your move. Do you want to finish the discussion on male characters first, and then maybe go at this a little bit at a time? there are just so many topics and themes. Or, you know. Just leave it?]

[brashcandy]

Thanks for writing such a detailed report Lady Lea! As you would imagine, some of the discussion made me see a little red, but there's lots of food for thought and discussion.

ETA: Oh definitely leave it LL :) The male influences are coming in slowly, so this will be useful to analyse.

[brashcandy]

- He talks about how if you open yourself to the story, it's a disturbing experience to be in the head of an 11-yo who has been abused the way Sansa has. "I don't know exactly why, but it is hard to open yourself up to the story of an 11 or 12-yo girl that gets so abused and whose head is stuffed full of all this girl stuff. Especially when you have Arya as the cool counterpart, the next thing that makes Sansa unpopular I guess, because Arya is just so much more interesting and exciting. But if you warm up to her and her storyline Sansa is really something".

:bang: :bang: :bang: :bang:

*actual response delayed due to massive headache*

[Caro99]

Lady Lea thank you for highlighting the main points from that podcast. I will reply to your post later :)

[Elba the Intoner]

This was fantastic! Thanks Lady Lea for summarizing it and thanks Caro for bringing it to our attention. I could comment on pretty much everything written there but I'll try to focus my comments a bit. First off, I agree with Brash that at first I found it very frustrating to read this quote from Stefan

He thinks that a lot of people hate Sansa in AGOT because "she fits the gender cliché of a girl more than any other character in the whole books. She's so much into all the girl stuff and she embraces her identity as a girl so full-heartedly [...]. This could be a problem, especially if you have a positive identification in Arya, who rejects all of that so violently and so passionately, and she gets away with it"

But after I read through everything I was extremely pleased. I actually identified with Sansa more right off the bat because of her girliness, but Stefan is right in that I think that is one of the reasons that people dislike Sansa so much at first and unfortunately she does get compared to Arya right away. But I thought it was heartening to see that both guys clearly recognized that when you read into her character more deeply she is very cool and strong. They talk about the benefits of her character in deconstructing the whole genre of chivalrous knights and princesses waiting for their knights in shining armor to come save them, and all that stuff towards the end about how Sansa is not about revenge and that will make her a great ruler was very satisfying to read about. I especially liked this part:

- He thinks that it takes a lot of emotional intelligence and shrewdness to survive as long as Sansa does in her circumstances. It helps that she doesn't have a hot temper. "She has an innate ability to sense what's expected of her and deliver, but as she does that, to learn from it and to grow".

Pretty spot on right there, as they understand that Sansa is still highly compassionate in how she doesn't want revenge, she has an ability to empathize with others who suffer, and they recognize her intelligence as well, though like Lady Lea I disagree with Stefan's assessment that Sansa is not really a child of the North. But it seems to me that they recognize that a deeper reading of Sansa can completely change one's initial assessment of her.

I also like how they understand that Sansa was made this way on purpose and the reason behind that:

a storyline like Sansa's, that doesn't fit in the epic-fantasy narrative about, you know, Ned, and those conflicting forces, it can feel like an interruption of what you're really there to see. It's only as time goes by, and you read more of the books, or you think more about what you've read, and you realise how intent Martin is on deconstructing and critiquing the ideas behind the genre and the ideas behind the society quantical (?) by the genre, that you realise how important Sansa is, the way Sansa's personal journey reflects the journey that a lot of us take as readers, as we learn about Westeros. She has been trained since she was a very little girl, a certain way that the world is supposed to work, these gallant knights and princes and these beautiful shy princesses, and courtly romance and songs and pageantries. She didn't choose that curriculum, that was given to her by Ned and Catelyn, and her Septa and Maester and so on. Her growth as a person is a sort of a journey of disillusionment. I think that's true for us as well, we learn about Westeros, we learn a lot of things were not as they seem,they're not all that they're cracked up to be, there's obviously a lot of ugliness going on, a lot of the history we're coming to learn is apparently just as unreliable as Sansa's songs. And that turns out to be a very important message".

That's why I find a lot of the Sansa bashing so frustrating, because it is just so superficial and not based on a deeper reading of the text. I was really happy to see STC bring up the incident where Sansa tells Cersei about Ned's plans to leave King's Landing and that he doesn't even get why Cersei thinks it was such a big reveal when in the end, when you place it in a timeline along with everything else that was going on, it was not anything important at all. It's like the people who still bash Sansa and find her useless can't see past their first impressions at all, you know?

On a side note, it's interesting that they also mention how Catelyn's chapters also seem to take you out of the action as Cat is also a hated character for some reason that I just don't get. So, I wanted to mention that I recently read over Cat's chapters in Clash of Kings and I have to say I loved them! They were beautifully written and it struck me just how strong the theme of her being a mother and just trying to do whatever she could to save her kids runs throughout every one of her chapters. The scene in the Sept where she prays just before going to the parley between Stannis and Renly is beautiful - there is a crack in the wall just where the Mother's eye is and makes it look like she is crying - such wonderful imagery. Now, maybe it's because I have never been much of a Fantasy reader** that I happened to like Cat and Sansa from the beginning, as I agree that as Sean says,

Sansa's chapters "take you of the action-based flow of the narrative".

I get that, but that's what I love about these books. You don't just get the typical fantasy action with a heroic quest and good v bad battles, but you get a real story about human emotions and human nature. I personally love that stuff but I guess someone who's only read about cool Ninja assassin warrior women or ethereal witches, would not be used to seeing a real mother type and real "girly" girl. I'd be interested in their thoughts on Arya in regard to understanding that Arya is not just a cool tomboy assassin but is becoming a child soldier, which is very sad. I think this is another deeper reading of a character that gets lost too often with a more superficial reading.

ETA I just found it gratifying to see that people with some authority on this subject and who have a lot of knowledge about the books and have read them on a deeper level understand what's really going on with Sansa's character for the most part, even when one of them admits that he hated her at first.

** Uh, so I am going to out myself now and admit that I have never read The Lord of the Rings. :blushing: I plan to I swear very soon. My daughter just finished the first book and liked it a lot (it was so naive and cute how devastated she was when Gandalf died. She cried that they killed the wrong person!) and we both liked the movies. I know the books and the movies are two different entities but usually I like books more than the movie versions so I am guessing I'll like the books even better. I also do like the genre as I loved Star Wars (that's fantasy as much as it is Sci Fi imo) and read Harry Potter and loved those as well.

[Lady Lea]

Hey Elba, make sure you read The Hobbit first! It's the perfect introduction to the LotR universe, and a lighter reading too. (I like the Hobbit more than LotR, personally...) ;)

I agree that it was very frustrating at first to listen to them talk about why they (well, Stefan) hated Sansa in the beginning, but it was also kind of funny. It really is sort of a typical reaction of a fantasy reader, I mean, I never thought Sansa (or Catelyn) interrupted the action or disrupted the pace, because I wasn't reading the books for the battles and descriptions of swords and magical artifacts. I was always more interested in the characters and political intrigues (I have to admit that I often skip battle scenes. I never really understand them anyway. I read the Blackwater some three times before giving up on understanding what was really going on with the ships).

I definitely agree with this though:

- Stefan says that that doesn't account for the hate she gets in AGOT because we only get that line from Cersei in ACOK. He thinks that a lot of people hate Sansa in AGOT because "she fits the gender cliché of a girl more than any other character in the whole books. She's so much into all the girl stuff and she embraces her identity as a girl so full-heartedly [...]. This could be a problem, especially if you have a positive identification in Arya, who rejects all of that so violently and so passionately, and she gets away with it"

I think this is a good explanation as to why she is so hated AND why some people never bother getting past a more superficial reading of her chapters. It's unfortunate, but we are all conditioned to think "girl stuff" (as Stefan puts it) is icky and worthless and shallow. And Sansa is definitely a girl. She has many of the so-called "feminine" qualitites to her, with the disadvantage that she is also presented as a foil to the "cool sister" and as mean/snobby/whatever. (The presentation issue is one that QC1 often writes kick-ass posts about). So I think that is a very important factor, I think a lot of people read her chapters and are so taken aback by the mentions of songs and knights and beauty that they just write her off as silly.

Personally, I don't read books because I can relate or identify with a character, but I've often seen people say that men can't relate to Sansa. Is this true? Can we get some guy opinion here? I think it's very silly. Sansa isn't defined by her girliness imo. She has many many qualities and personality traits that are very interesting and have nothing to do with her privates. Unless some people don't want to identity with her because she is a girly-girl, and that's another matter entirely. Brashcandy (in one of my favourite posts on tumblr) once wrote a list of ways anyone can identify with Sansa, even a little bit.

I also disagree with the notion that Sansa isn't there for the plot but as a stand-in for the reader or just to make a point about injustices and gender inequality and the society, etc. (Some people say that her POV is only there to provide a glimpse into KL/The Eyre). I think she is very much about plot and character development. Her story in intertwined with Ned's, Cat's, Tyrion's, the Tyrells', Cersei's, Sandor's... they all make decisions at some point and change the course of their stolylines because of her, and she has developed and learned so much since AGOT.

I liked the bit about strong female characters. I think Sansa is one. She's both strongly written and and strong emotionally. I also thought it was interesting how they remarked on Sansa re: vengeful thoughts. The only times I remember seeing anything like it in her chapters was when she told Joff that Robb would give her his head, and when she tore SR's doll and put the head on a spike - both instances she was defending the Starks and Winterfell. I think this pretty much proves that she definitely has a very strong connection to the North.

But I'm curious about what you guys have to say about Sansa's ambitions. Do you agree with Stefan that she has no ambition to take power for herself in the future? Do you think she does not want to be queen?

[brashcandy]

Ok, headache gone ;)

Overall, I think they've grasped Sansa's essential character very well - the emotional strength and intelligence, her kindness that remains despite what she's undergone, the lack of a need for vengeance etc. Confirmed Sansa haters would benefit from listening to it, especially since Stefan admits that he used to be in that category before he reread and gained some enlightenment. Of course, I'm still frustrated by the tendency to denigrate Sansa's identification with "girl stuff" and to view Arya's rejection of this as somehow more legitimate and automatically worthy of respect, but I do appreciate that the discussion focused on the way in which Sansa's unique qualities ensured her survival at the end of the day.

The two main things I disagreed with were Stefan's assertion that at the end of AFFC she can't do anything but nod when LF tells her she'll marry HtH and that she doesn't have the emotional ties to Winterfell like the rest of her family. Concerning the latter, I'm amazed that this assessment could be given in light of snow castle scene in ASOS where we see that connection literally enabling her to build Winterfell out of snow. Sure, Sansa was initially preoccupied with Southron culture and her own glorification of knighthood and chivalry, but from the very first novel we've seen her identifying as a Stark of Winterfell, and growing closer to the old gods throughout her captivity. Indeed, the one place where she's free to be herself, and where she eventually plots her escape is in that godswood - the religious enclave of the North. By the time of her descent from the Eyrie, and even when she's posing as Alayne Stone, she thinks the wind sounds like a ghost wolf; frankly, Sansa's emotional ties to the North could not be stronger. We've talked about this before, but just to reiterate, Martin seems to have envisioned her as a uniting figure, who can bridge the disconnect and disharmony that currently exists in Westeros. She can exist and function in both spheres - North and South - and this I think gives us a clue as to what her ultimate purpose will be, both personally and politically.

Now about the business with her meekly accepting LF's proposal to marry the HtH - that simply does not happen. In no where in that chapter does she show any signs of agreeing to LF's arrangement. In fact, what we do see is her internal discomfort with the idea, and her attempt to sway LF from it by reminding him of her marriage. After that, she proceeds to learn exactly how it is that HtH has managed to be next in line for the Vale, and then we hear nothing from her. I also think that at this point, Sansa has gained a measure of agency, but there needs to be a rethinking of just what constitutes agency when one is still limited in what one can achieve. Suffice to say, there are things about Sansa that LF still does not know, and stuff he is taking for granted due to his own corrupt worldview.

[David Selig]

Personally, I don't read books because I can relate or identify with a character, but I've often seen people say that men can't relate to Sansa. Is this true? Can we get some guy opinion here?

I can relate to Sansa very easily. In fact, much easier than to most male characters in this series. But apparently for most men it's easier to relate to arrogant murderers like Jaime and Tyrion than to a kind-hearted "girly" girl, which I find silly and unfortunate.

- Stefan says that that doesn't account for the hate she gets in AGOT because we only get that line from Cersei in ACOK. He thinks that a lot of people hate Sansa in AGOT because "she fits the gender cliché of a girl more than any other character in the whole books. She's so much into all the girl stuff and she embraces her identity as a girl so full-heartedly."

On the other hand, Jon Snow fits almost every possible cliche about the boy hero yet pretty much everyone loves him. Got to love the double standards of the fandom...

It really is sort of a typical reaction of a fantasy reader, I mean, I never thought Sansa (or Catelyn) interrupted the action or disrupted the pace, because I wasn't reading the books for the battles and descriptions of swords and magical artifacts.

The battles are very much a minor element in ASOIF. In terms of plot Martin is a lot more interested in the political intrigues and plottings, of which there are plenty in Sansa's PoV. So yeah, the claims that her chapters interrupted the action, are strange.

[brashcandy]

I also disagree with the notion that Sansa isn't there for the plot but as a stand-in for the reader or just to make a point about injustices and gender inequality and the society, etc. (Some people say that her POV is only there to provide a glimpse into KL/The Eyre). I think she is very much about plot and character development. Her story in intertwined with Ned's, Cat's, Tyrion's, the Tyrells', Cersei's, Sandor's... they all make decisions at some point and change the course of their stolylines because of her, and she has developed and learned so much since AGOT.

Yeah definitely agree with you here. She has been an integral part of the plot - hell, most of LF's machinations by the time her family arrives in KL might be connected to her, and of course she has own storyline connected to the Hound, and what her future relevance in Westerosi society will be. Pertinent to this is the post written by Starbird where we see her taking the same paths previously undertaken by her parents. This to me is the clearest symbol of Sansa's importance to the plot and in the eventual outcome for the Stark family.

But I'm curious about what you guys have to say about Sansa's ambitions. Do you agree with Stefan that she has no ambition to take power for herself in the future? Do you think she does not want to be queen?

Her lack of traditional ambition is something we've noted in the past, but this doesn't mean that she is without desire to see real change develop in Westeros, or that she won't come to assume a prominent position in the quest for such progress. I've always seen the personal leading Sansa to the political - in that it is her own experiences which will necessitate her struggle for agency and empowerment. How far this will take her is unclear and really depends on Martin. I could see Sansa as a Queen just as easily as I could see her living quietly as a wife and mother. Ultimately, the ambition she possesses is for autonomy - whatever form this takes will be up to Martin.

[Daidalos]

We've talked about this before, but just to reiterate, Martin seems to have envisioned her as a uniting figure, who can bridge the disconnect and disharmony that currently exists in Westeros. She can exist and function in both spheres - North and South - and this I think gives us a clue as to what her ultimate purpose will be, both personally and politically.

I'm interested in the political angle. If Sansa is to serve this role, as some kind of uniting figure, mustn't she rather quickly become more prominent? Mustn't she in some way build up political capital to have this function? As far as I see it, her current genuine allies (obviously, LF doesn't belong in this category) don't have much in the way of political sway, and she doesn't seem to enjoy the kind of reputation at the moment that would make this ascension to power and influence likely. How do you imagine this changing? Would Sansa affect this change on her own, or would she be helped along by someone else (e.g. by exploiting some scheme of LF's)?

[brashcandy]

I'm interested in the political angle of this. If Sansa is to serve this role, as some kind of uniting figure, mustn't she rather quickly become more prominent? Mustn't she in some way build up political capital to have this function? As far as I see it, her current genuine allies (obviously, LF doesn't belong in this category) don't have much in the way of political sway, and she doesn't seem to enjoy the kind of reputation at the moment that would make this ascension to power and influence likely. How do you imagine this changing? Would Sansa affect this change on her own, or would she be helped along by someone else (e.g. by exploiting some scheme of LF's)?

In AFFC, when Sansa is ruminating about whether she could throw herself at the mercy of Bronze Yohn, she thinks to herself that he never fought for Robb, so why should he "fight for me?" Now this may be nothing, but I've always been intrigued by the language used here. Even though at the moment she thought of throwing herself at his feet, she doesn't think of him rescuing her, but fighting for her. It's just me, but I think there's a possibility that the Vale army could one day fight for Sansa, just perhaps not in the scheme LF envisions, or was attempting to bribe her with. I don't see her reputation being a problem at the moment. Sansa Stark needs to be hidden for a time, but as Alayne Stone she's already winning friends. If the War against the Others goes as planned, then in the aftermath Sansa's skills would be in great demand to help shape whatever post war society emerges out of this conflict; but in the interim, I envision that she'll be concentrating on helping save SR's life, reconnecting with Sandor and perhaps the remaining pack of Starks to have some impact during the crisis.

[Lord Bronn Stokeworth]

1. But after I read through everything I was extremely pleased. I actually identified with Sansa more right off the bat because of her girliness, but Stefan is right in that I think that is one of the reasons that people dislike Sansa so much at first and unfortunately she does get compared to Arya right away. But I thought it was heartening to see that both guys clearly recognized that when you read into her character more deeply she is very cool and strong. They talk about the benefits of her character in deconstructing the whole genre of chivalrous knights and princesses waiting for their knights in shining armor to come save them, and all that stuff towards the end about how Sansa is not about revenge and that will make her a great ruler was very satisfying to read about. I especially liked this part:

2. Pretty spot on right there, as they understand that Sansa is still highly compassionate in how she doesn't want revenge, she has an ability to empathize with others who suffer, and they recognize her intelligence as well, though like Lady Lea I disagree with Stefan's assessment that Sansa is not really a child of the North. But it seems to me that they recognize that a deeper reading of Sansa can completely change one's initial assessment of her.

I also like how they understand that Sansa was made this way on purpose and the reason behind that:

3. On a side note, it's interesting that they also mention how Catelyn's chapters also seem to take you out of the action as Cat is also a hated character for some reason that I just don't get. So, I wanted to mention that I recently read over Cat's chapters in Clash of Kings and I have to say I loved them! They were beautifully written and it struck me just how strong the theme of her being a mother and just trying to do whatever she could to save her kids runs throughout every one of her chapters. The scene in the Sept where she prays just before going to the parley between Stannis and Renly is beautiful - there is a crack in the wall just where the Mother's eye is and makes it look like she is crying - such wonderful imagery. Now, maybe it's because I have never been much of a Fantasy reader** that I happened to like Cat and Sansa from the beginning, as I agree that as Sean says,

4. I get that, but that's what I love about these books. You don't just get the typical fantasy action with a heroic quest and good v bad battles, but you get a real story about human emotions and human nature. I personally love that stuff but I guess someone who's only read about cool Ninja assassin warrior women or ethereal witches, would not be used to seeing a real mother type and real "girly" girl. I'd be interested in their thoughts on Arya in regard to understanding that Arya is not just a cool tomboy assassin but is becoming a child soldier, which is very sad. I think this is another deeper reading of a character that gets lost too often with a more superficial reading.

ETA I just found it gratifying to see that people with some authority on this subject and who have a lot of knowledge about the books and have read them on a deeper level understand what's really going on with Sansa's character for the most part, even when one of them admits that he hated her at first.

5. ** Uh, so I am going to out myself now and admit that I have never read The Lord of the Rings. :blushing: I plan to I swear very soon. My daughter just finished the first book and liked it a lot (it was so naive and cute how devastated she was when Gandalf died. She cried that they killed the wrong person!) and we both liked the movies. I know the books and the movies are two different entities but usually I like books more than the movie versions so I am guessing I'll like the books even better. I also do like the genre as I loved Star Wars (that's fantasy as much as it is Sci Fi imo) and read Harry Potter and loved those as well.

1. I can understand where he is coming from. Society is very forceful about male identification. I remember when I went over to my friend's house to play Guitar Hero (years ago of course). His sister's friend who he was sorta starting to see was there. When I chose a the rocker chick, she question my manhood. I felt a mixture of embarrassment and anger which made it awkward for my friend. And while she was more tactless than most, identification with femininity is something that is looked down on for men. Sure, some like David above and myself can get *past it. But I understand where some guys have a problem. Though to these guys' credit, they did get past it.

And the Arya comparison does hurt her. She is made out to be the "mean girl" first. Of course, I think this is another deconstruction by GRRM. The mean girl who picked on her little sister (or at least let her friends) is actually empathetic and sympathetic character (but not one the elicits pity). The problem is when people cannot get past first impressions or believe in change.

2. I agree with you on your points here. Sansa did what she had to survive, but showed Northern badassness when she could.

3. As for Cat, she was not one of my favorites, but I did like her. It's one of the main reasons I hate Lady Stoneheart so much.

4. Actually, I disagreed with this part. I didn't feel that Sansa's chapters took me out of the action at all.

5. I haven't either and have no intention to.

*To be fair though, picking the punk rocker chick had nothing to do with identifying with girls or any like that. It was more chauvinist reasoning of, "I'd rather look at hot rocker chick than Mr. beefcake." So, I'm not claiming "evolved man" there.

6. Personally, I don't read books because I can relate or identify with a character, but I've often seen people say that men can't relate to Sansa. Is this true? Can we get some guy opinion here? I think it's very silly. Sansa isn't defined by her girliness imo. She has many many qualities and personality traits that are very interesting and have nothing to do with her privates. Unless some people don't want to identity with her because she is a girly-girl, and that's another matter entirely. Brashcandy (in one of my favourite posts on tumblr) once wrote a list of ways anyone can identify with Sansa, even a little bit.

7. I also disagree with the notion that Sansa isn't there for the plot but as a stand-in for the reader or just to make a point about injustices and gender inequality and the society, etc. (Some people say that her POV is only there to provide a glimpse into KL/The Eyre). I think she is very much about plot and character development. Her story in intertwined with Ned's, Cat's, Tyrion's, the Tyrells', Cersei's, Sandor's... they all make decisions at some point and change the course of their stolylines because of her, and she has developed and learned so much since AGOT.

I liked the bit about strong female characters. I think Sansa is one. She's both strongly written and and strong emotionally. I also thought it was interesting how they remarked on Sansa re: vengeful thoughts. The only times I remember seeing anything like it in her chapters was when she told Joff that Robb would give her his head, and when she tore SR's doll and put the head on a spike - both instances she was defending the Starks and Winterfell. I think this pretty much proves that she definitely has a very strong connection to the North.

8. But I'm curious about what you guys have to say about Sansa's ambitions. Do you agree with Stefan that she has no ambition to take power for herself in the future? Do you think she does not want to be queen?

6. I answered a lot of that above. But as for me personally, I don't know if I identify with her. But I don't consider that an important thing. I see her awesomeness. But I generally don't spend a lot of time seeing myself in a character. I mean there's things I could say I share with a character, but that's pretty much true with any character (I understand Gregor's annoyance of a little sibling taking his toys, hell, it still goes on for me *shakes his fist at Lady B. Pudding and his Firefly Blu-Ray*).

7. I agree with you here. Sansa has an important part to play.

8. It's hard to say. I don't think Sansa is particularly for herself. But once she gets out from under Littlefinger's thumb, I think she will see her ability and use it on behalf of House Stark. I suspect she will become the Hand at the end of the book, but not because she wants personal power, but for her family and for the country.

In AFFC, when Sansa is ruminating about whether she could throw herself at the mercy of Bronze Yohn, she thinks to herself that he never fought for Robb, so why should he "fight for me?" Now this may be nothing, but I've always been intrigued by the language used here. Even though at the moment she thought of throwing herself at his feet, she doesn't think of him rescuing her, but fighting for her. It's just me, but I think there's a possibility that the Vale army could one day fight for Sansa, just perhaps not in the scheme LF envisions, or was attempting to bribe her with. I don't see her reputation being a problem at the moment. Sansa Stark needs to be hidden for a time, but as Alayne Stone she's already winning friends. If the War against the Others goes as planned, then in the aftermath Sansa's skills would be in great demand to help shape whatever post war society emerges out of this conflict; but in the interim, I envision that she'll be concentrating on helping save SR's life, reconnecting with Sandor and perhaps the remaining pack of Starks to have some impact during the crisis.

Yeah, I see Sansa becoming the SR's regent once she has taken care of Littlefinger.

[Lord Bronn Stokeworth]

EDIT: Double post. Sorry.

[Samsaptakas]

I am a guy. I enjoy Sansa's chapters(even on the first read, more then arya ), but i don't think i can identify with her.

I don't really judge characters on their actions. As a pro wrestling fan, I have been conditioned into not giving moral judgement on characters. Only thing that matter to me is that whether Certain character's actions will make story more interesting or enjoyable to me.

Also, I think i am the only reader here, who is big fan of Victarion and sansa both. strange combination of characters to like, i guess.

[Caro99]

I’m glad you all thought that podcast was good for discussion! :)

So, I also heard the part where they talked about Cersei and almost near the end they said some things about Maggy the Frog’s prophecy which I think also influenced their take on Sansa. They were talking about how Cersei is so good at something she hates (being a good queen on the outside, yet not being able to actually sit on the iron throne, when one of the guys said something like, “It’s really sad that ever since she was a little girl she knew that all she could ever hope for was that one day she would get married, would have kids, and might end up a queen, and thus that’s what she asked Maggy in her tent about…”

They seemed to see these future prospects as unfair and sad, yet except for the last one, Sansa has always wanted to get married and start a family, and because she really wants that, I think the guys couldn’t relate to her that well. I hope I am sort of making sense here..! They brought up Brienne & Arya (maybe Dany) and how they are cool characters who break the standards set for them by the society they live in, yet Sansa not only accepts these notions but embraces them happily (they mentioned how maybe she was like this because Septa Mordane and her parents has sort only let her expect this from life), thus they cannot relate to Sansa at the start and how she “embraces her identity as a girl so full-heartedly…”

We all agree that she would be a great queen (also a regent of course) if that’s what she is meant to end up being, but it’s interesting to see that out of the 3 questions Cersei asked Maggy, the only one they could imagine Sansa in was the one she wants the least: being queen.

I think they did a nice analysis on her character overall, and brought up many interesting topics, yet I still think they possibly see women embracing a simple married life as a “waste” or not something worth discussing.

Also, I get why they may find her chapters different after reading about Tyrion’s clever escape from the Moon Door, or Ned discovering about the incest secret, or about Jon at the Wall, but I saw that others in this thread didn’t have these trouble with identifying with her because we were into dresses and having crushes on handsome teenage boys at one point, and such. Of course there are a million reasons more why we enjoy reading Sansa’s chapters, but those are what I believe the initial thoughts of some of the people I know personally who have started reading the books get: she is just there to talk about girl’s stuff…

About this quote:

He talks about her description in the RPG as a damsel in distress and princess in the castle, there to be protected from monsters and waiting for a prince to rescue her, but the prince is not coming.

They failed to mention how in a way Sansa is going to save herself, and is already at least at present not waiting to be rescued but may very well take matters into her own hands and decide what she wants for herself: not her parents or the Lannisters or Petyr.

& of course they didn’t realize that Sansa is indeed a daughter of the north. They said that she lost in part the connection due to Lady’s death, yet as we’ve discussed before Sansa has been growing closer to the Old Gods and the north with every books.

They also say at one point one good thing about her though: that once she makes a mistake, she isn’t likely to do it again. She can learn quickly, again, proving she isn’t, not only showing how good she is at surviving and adapting to change, but that she is smart, and only failed a little in math when she was 11 years old. They also said that she is so good at hiding her true feelings and thoughts (cause she has build a wall around herself no one can reach, if IRC, or how she can fool LF into believing that she sort of cares for him. That he wasn’t realizing Sansa was giving him lies and Arbor gold or something and thus will be his downfall.

[Queen Sansa Stark]

What I loved about podcast is how he described that Sansa isnt vengeful. I whole heartedly agree that the lack of the bitterness to Sansa would make her a good ruler. Without it Sansa can objectively take a look at things and give the proper punishment that fits the crime.

I find it sad when people say that Sansa isnt a child of the north. It all comes down how Sansa isnt stark like. This isn't harry potter where each house has its own set of personality. Let's just throw away individuality. So what Sansa favored the south over the north once upon time. It is like me getting pissed at you just because he would prefer living croatia over the north pole. LOL.

[Elba the Intoner]

Yes, and you know what's interesting about the Sansa not being of the North comment? It doesn't take into consideration her disillusionment that she has been going through in King's Landing, though in that same podcast they do in fact mention how she has become disillusioned with the whole knights in shining armor theme.

Her growth as a person is a sort of a journey of disillusionment. I think that's true for us as well, we learn about Westeros, we learn a lot of things were not as they seem,they're not all that they're cracked up to be, there's obviously a lot of ugliness going on, a lot of the history we're coming to learn is apparently just as unreliable as Sansa's songs. And that turns out to be a very important message".

So, they recognized that yes her story is about the disillusionment of the standard princess in a tower trope, which is true, but not that she has become disillusioned with the South too, which was supposed to be all about what Sansa supposedly loved at first. Everything that Sansa loved in the beginning was tied to the south. There are no knights in the North as they do not have the Seven is one example. She first seemed to favor the Seven, her mother's gods as another example, but she has grown much more attached to the Old gods by AFFC, she thinks about how she thought the Great Sept of Baelor was so beautiful when she first saw it, but later tells Dontos she hopes they burn it down, etc. So, these guys are getting there, but haven't quite picked up on all the nuances yet - baby steps I suppose.

ETA Lady Lea actually I just finished The Hobbit a couple weeks ago in preparation for reading the LOTR trilogy. It was cute. I liked the whole "Good morning!" exchange when Gandalf first comes to Bilbo in the beginning. My daughter , who is 13 btw, same age as Sansa, read it first too and is so excited about the upcoming movie!

[Lady Lea]

Funny too how Sansa is easily identified by readers as being "more southern than northern" when Bran isn't. First, they both look like Cat, but only Sansa gets the "like mother like daughter" treatment. Bran liked songs too, except he liked the ones about knights not love. Bran wanted to be a knight, which is a Southern thing and means you forsake the Old Gods and embrace the Seven. Yet Bran isn't "more Tully than Stark".

Now Bran can't be a knight, obviously, but Sansa is also already disillusioned with the idea that all knights are good, and even with songs and singers, except this gets very little recognition. And Bran is clearly getting closer to the Old Gods because he is a warg and is becoming a freaking tree, but there are so many references to weirwoods in Sansa's chapters, and she spends so much time IN weirwoods praying, that's it's difficult for me to see how anyone can miss that.