Enough Already!

[SerStinger]

What is with the opposition against same sex romance? Didn't anyone opposed to these ideas ever have a sexual encounter/crush with their childhood buddy? Studies and surveys and slashfic seem to indicate that it's pretty freaking common. Hell, I grew up in a very conservative, bible-thumping town where gays were the devil and I don't know anyone who didn't kiss, crush, masturbate or at least play doctor (equivalent of Come into my Castle?) with their best friend, who was usually of the same gender. Why is it so strange to consider that Robert and Ned experimented and the memory stayed with at least Ned?

Because when you say it like that, you're harming the social notions more severely. Some societies now accept the existence of gays, but only if they remain separated from the straight people. Ned is clearly straight, so when you suggest he has had a gay element, that goes beyond accepting gays, it challenges the social notions of "straight" and "gay". That's why people still reject the idea that Shakespeare's sonnets are gay.

[Light a wight tonight]

Those are particularly galling, I have to agree. On a related note, the "Ned is as good a swordsman as Arthur Dayne/Barristan Selmy and better than Jaime Lannister," arguments which seem to be based on no evidence whatsoever.

Actually there is some evidence, but it's not especially credible. The servants at Winterfell said that Ned defeated Arthur Dayne singlehanded. Ned's version contradicts this and he would be the better judge of things, but it's there. Nowhere else is it said that he's more than a competent swordsman.

[Frey Pie]

What is with the opposition against same sex romance? Didn't anyone opposed to these ideas ever have a sexual encounter/crush with their childhood buddy? Studies and surveys and slashfic seem to indicate that it's pretty freaking common. Hell, I grew up in a very conservative, bible-thumping town where gays were the devil and I don't know anyone who didn't kiss, crush, masturbate or at least play doctor (equivalent of Come into my Castle?) with their best friend, who was usually of the same gender. Why is it so strange to consider that Robert and Ned experimented and the memory stayed with at least Ned?

I can honestly say no to the middle part of your post. Im not sure this is the norm, or the exception your talking about. Its not strange to consider them together or that they may have experimented, its just got no backup from the text

[Winter's Knight]

Yep, I read the whole thread and really enjoyed it. Mostly because when I first read it I found it funny. However, a while back I realize during another thread (can't remember which) that some people really do believe it so that was a shocked revelation for me since I figured you were mostly joking around on the original thread. Since Ned and Cat are by far my favorite couple in the books NedBert is against all my beliefs :P

Hmm, how does one explain?

It is possible for X to love/have a crush on Y but to go on and due to awful circumstances wed Z. It is also possible for X and Z to have a fruitful, loving marriage without X forgetting Y. Years later, when Y comes and asks for help, these old feelings may resurface without X in anyway losing the love he bears Z.

[Associate Maester]

Actually, Tagganaro and I have been meaning to make a comprehensive Mance retrospective for like the last 5 months, lol. There's just too much "data" to collect. But right before I lost power, Dr P and I started an OP about fools, so we'll try to post that one soon.

Yea, the aforementioned thread-in-progress was pretty much that as Tag and I had discussed it. Maybe I should just compile the 200 PMs on this subject and turn that into the OP.

Also, we need another thread like Nedbert.

I'm looking forward to that thread on Fools. I have so much to say about Patchface!!!!

[LordBloodraven]

What is with the opposition against same sex romance? Didn't anyone opposed to these ideas ever have a sexual encounter/crush with their childhood buddy? Studies and surveys and slashfic seem to indicate that it's pretty freaking common. Hell, I grew up in a very conservative, bible-thumping town where gays were the devil and I don't know anyone who didn't kiss, crush, masturbate or at least play doctor (equivalent of Come into my Castle?) with their best friend, who was usually of the same gender. Why is it so strange to consider that Robert and Ned experimented and the memory stayed with at least Ned?

It's strange because there's no evidence to back it up from the books.

[ab aeterno]

Actually there is some evidence, but it's not especially credible. The servants at Winterfell said that Ned defeated Arthur Dayne singlehanded. Ned's version contradicts this and he would be the better judge of things, but it's there. Nowhere else is it said that he's more than a competent swordsman.

I wouldn't say that it is even fair to call that evidence really, no more than the rumors about Robb Stark using magic to ambush Stafford Lannister are evidence of how Robb won so many victories, or the idea among the smallfolk in KL that Tyrion is responsible for all of Joffrey's sadism.

[Dr. Pepper]

I can honestly say no to the middle part of your post. Im not sure this is the norm, or the exception your talking about. Its not strange to consider them together or that they may have experimented, its just got no backup from the text

I'm finding this really hard to believe as everyone I have ever asked has admitted to some sort of sexual play with a childhood friend (or cousin! sometimes sibling) of the same gender. Comparing parts, practice kissing (usually on arms, but sometimes each other), playing doctor, all the way up to more illicit things like masturbating in front of one another (or mutual masturbation) to actually having sex. Usually the playful games cease when parties realize the sexual elements of them.

Evidence from the text exists in the type of games the kids play. Come-Into-My-Castle anyone?

But, I digress. Getting off topic. Should revive the Sexuality in Westeros thread.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Oh my goodness!

1. Sansa is evil and single-handedly destroyed her family

2. X is a secret Targ

3. X is really Y in disguise

4. Jon is dead

5. X isn't really dead (only an issue when we're talking about someone who is emphatically shuffled loose the mortal coil)

6. What if ... (to each his own, but I HATE nonsense hypotheticals; we have enough material to wade through with what we have without dealing with stuff that never even happened)

7. If you don't like Dany you're a misogynist who has issues with women

8. Lame Hot Pie and Hodor jokes that stopped being funny about six months ago

9. Catelyn Stark is responsible for everything bad that's happened

10. Bowen Marsh is really a swell guy who's misunderstood

11. Three heads of the dragon anything

12. The Dothraki would have destroyed Westeros easily! ... No, kids

13. Aegon is real

14. The Targaryens are gods who can't burn or get sick and are the greatest people evarrrrr

15. People trying to look clever by poking holes in R+L=J just to be anti-establishment — you don't look clever, you look like you haven't been paying any attention

16. X is so boring and just dull and wah wah wah hate reading about them but yet you take time to repeatedly post how boring they are but you're totes over them

17. Why does everyone love/hate X? Someone will love a character you hate, and hate a character you love, and you need to get over it

18. X is overrated/underrated, which usually translates so, "I don't like him so he's overrated"

19. People using the TV as evidence in any way where the books are concerned

20. Broadly, any half-assed argument without any decent supporting thematic or circumstantial evidence. I get that most things have been pounded into the dirt and people need to get further and further out there in order to stand out, but don't toss up a baseless argument and then get butthurt when people side-eye you

That felt really good.

[The Great Walrus]

Oh my goodness!

1. Sansa is evil and single-handedly destroyed her family

2. X is a secret Targ

3. X is really Y in disguise

4. Jon is dead

5. X isn't really dead (only an issue when we're talking about someone who is emphatically shuffled loose the mortal coil)

6. What if ... (to each his own, but I HATE nonsense hypotheticals; we have enough material to wade through with what we have without dealing with stuff that never even happened)

7. If you don't like Dany you're a misogynist who has issues with women

8. Lame Hot Pie and Hodor jokes that stopped being funny about six months ago

9. Catelyn Stark is responsible for everything bad that's happened

10. Bowen Marsh is really a swell guy who's misunderstood

11. Three heads of the dragon anything

12. The Dothraki would have destroyed Westeros easily! ... No, kids

13. Aegon is real

14. The Targaryens are gods who can't burn or get sick and are the greatest people evarrrrr

15. People trying to look clever by poking holes in R+L=J just to be anti-establishment — you don't look clever, you look like you haven't been paying any attention

16. X is so boring and just dull and wah wah wah hate reading about them but yet you take time to repeatedly post how boring they are but you're totes over them

17. Why does everyone love/hate X? Someone will love a character you hate, and hate a character you love, and you need to get over it

18. X is overrated/underrated, which usually translates so, "I don't like him so he's overrated"

19. People using the TV as evidence in any way where the books are concerned

20. Broadly, any half-assed argument without any decent supporting thematic or circumstantial evidence. I get that most things have been pounded into the dirt and people need to get further and further out there in order to stand out, but don't toss up a baseless argument and then get butthurt when people side-eye you

That felt really good.

I am in awe of you, Apple Martini :bowdown: :agree:

[Nausicaä]

Out of the ones not mentioned..

- Tyrion did not treat Shae badly. Related: Shae's participation in Tyrion's "trial" had any weight and she was "trying to get him condemned to death".

- Catelyn abused Jon.

- Cersei slept with everyone we know, setting every event in the course of the books in motion. Aerys probably didn't become a pyromaniac until Tywin brought Cersei with her ~eyes of wildfire~ to court and she seduced him.

- "You like that ship with a problematic issue, so I will imply that something must be wrong with you. And/or ask you if you would like for this to happen to you/your family/friends, since you like this?" Fiction =/= RL. Some discussions can use comparisons to real life, but some situations in the books have no equivalent in real life. And in any case, real life shouldn't be brought up to shame a person for something they enjoy.

Threads in which the OP declares that he or she knows the theory they are putting forward is crackpot: 'Hey guys here's my crackpot theory haha I know it's stupid haha hear me out im probably wrong haha'. Stand by it dammit.

Or post it in the thread designed for crackpot theories. If you start a new thread, you either have not been here for more than a few days or feel that your theory deserves to be singled out among the other crackpot theories and given more attention.

[butterbumps!]

10. Bowen Marsh is really a swell guy who's misunderstood

Oh, come on. I actually love those threads. They are my "low hanging fruits." I just can't resist those.

[LordBloodraven]

On topic, there's also the "Why all this love for Stannis?".

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Oh, come on. I actually love those threads. They are my "low hanging fruits." I just can't resist those.

The joy of knocking down pro-Bowen arguments is negated for me by the wtf-ery of knowing people exist who actually think he's the good guy. :(

[ab aeterno]

On topic, there's also the "Why all this love for Stannis?".

Yeah, I mentioned these earlier. It's not that it isn't a fair question to ask, it's just that they're all identical. I could literally write both sides of the argument that will develop each time! They're fun threads, occasionally, but they're far too frequent!

[Winter's Knight]

I'm finding this really hard to believe as everyone I have ever asked has admitted to some sort of sexual play with a childhood friend (or cousin! sometimes sibling) of the same gender. Comparing parts, practice kissing (usually on arms, but sometimes each other), playing doctor, all the way up to more illicit things like masturbating in front of one another (or mutual masturbation) to actually having sex. Usually the playful games cease when parties realize the sexual elements of them.

Evidence from the text exists in the type of games the kids play. Come-Into-My-Castle anyone?

But, I digress. Getting off topic. Should revive the Sexuality in Westeros thread.

Sansa does in fact mention a kissing game.

Megga couldn’t sing, but she was mad to be kissed. She and Alla played a kissing game sometimes, she confessed, but it wasn’t the same as kissing a man, much less a king.

[Frey Pie]

I'm finding this really hard to believe as everyone I have ever asked has admitted to some sort of sexual play with a childhood friend (or cousin! sometimes sibling) of the same gender. Comparing parts, practice kissing (usually on arms, but sometimes each other), playing doctor, all the way up to more illicit things like masturbating in front of one another (or mutual masturbation) to actually having sex. Usually the playful games cease when parties realize the sexual elements of them.

Evidence from the text exists in the type of games the kids play. Come-Into-My-Castle anyone?

But, I digress. Getting off topic. Should revive the Sexuality in Westeros thread.

Haha and i find it extremely odd that you say the opposite so i guess we just gotta put it down to the different areas in which we were brought up (presumably). The closest iv come to this is wishing i could look more like someone else because their better with the ladies, which i soon outgrew, or giving a pat on the ass to a teammate

[ab aeterno]

Oh my goodness!

snip

That felt really good.

Great job Apple Martini! Exceptionally thorough as always! :D

[Little Wing]

12. The Dothraki would have destroyed Westeros easily! ... No, kids

Har! Thank you for everything mentioned but especially this!

[Tagganaro]

Well, as Butterbumps has already pointed out, the lack of "Mance is the most awesomest character ever and will sit the Iron Throne and singlehandedly defeat the Others" threads is quite disturbing.

Any theory involving Ashara Dayne really pisses me off. This woman appears in like 3 lines in the whole books, and is talked about so freaking much on here. I don't get it. If she ends up being Lemore, I'd be very angry.

Otherwise, AM's post sums it up perfectly. Although like Butterbumps, I have to agree that "Bowen is a hero" threads are quite hilarious and entertaining, and I always love going on to them to just point out how ridiculous that position is.