Obama's Reelected, Let's Bomb Gaza Again

[Shryke]

The Palestinians elected Hamas in Gaza. They have what they wanted. That same leadership fires rockers on almost a daily basis into Israel because that is what Hamas wants and Gaza wants Hamas.

In turn they are getting what they deserve.

The US voters elected the same governments that blows up weddings, overthrow governments and generally fuck with people's livelihoods and murder their families.

In turn, they got what they deserved on 9/11.

That's how this works, right?

[Shryke]

Negotiations are meant to lead to peace. Each side has demands in order for that peace agreement to be reached. Hamas's demand is: NO PEACE UNDER ANY CONDITIONS. That's their starting and end position in negotiations. Can you get that into your head They have a completely different end game in mind. It does not matter to them how much we give or if we give. No matter what, they want a different end game than Fatah or Israel.

No, it's their starting point. It is not necessarily their end point. You don't know what their end point is because you haven't really negotiated with them.

Let's take this to the comical for a second, and say, had Nazi Germany existed alongside us, we could have at least tried to negotiate. Hitler demands the death of all Jews, but that's just a starting position in negotiations, right?

Why don't we look at what actually happened and note that they tried to negotiate with Nazi Germany. You bruoght the issue up yourself with Neville Chamberlain. When that didn't work, they went with "wipe them out". They didn't go with "push the Nazis back to the German borders every 4-5 years".

For another real world example, we can look at North Korea. Every now and then they take pot shots at South Korea and kill some people. In return South Korea shoots a bit back but generally the North knows it can't win so it says on it's side of the border and doesn't bother the North Koreans.

Look Yoadm, let's try this a different way:

Because Israel refuses to pursue a position of negotiation or annihilation with Gaza, they are left with the only other real option: Containment

Except you can't pursue a containment strategy with an enemy that can lob rockets at you from their backyards. Or, you can, but you just end up with the situation you are living with now where they are lobbing rockets at you from their backyard.

If you don't like the results of containment, you are gonna have to switch strategies. And if you can't accept annihilation, you are gonna have to negotiate with them.

You said it yourself:

So what's our alternative? Cant negotiate peace, even the end game is something Hamas is against. Can't go 'allies vs axis' on their asses.

If you refuse to accept the other alternatives, you are left with just blowing them up every few years and living with the daily results of that. If you don't like that, maybe you should switch to one of the other available options. Because it's not that you can't do them, it's that you won't.

[Fez]

New York Times is reporting that Secretary Clinton and Egypt's President and Foreign Minister have brokered a cease-fire between Israel and Hamas.

Israel and Hamas agreed to a cease-fire on Wednesday after eight days of lethal fighting over the Gaza Strip, the United States and Egypt said after intensive negotiations in Cairo.

The cease-fire, to take effect at 9 p.m. local time (2 p.m. E.S.T.), was formally announced by Secretary of State Hillary Rodham Clinton and Foreign Minister Mohamed Amr of Egypt at a news conference here and was aimed to avert an escalating battle between Palestinians and Israelis that had threatened to turn into a wider war.

...............

The agreement came despite a bus bombing in Tel Aviv earlier in the day, which Hamas and other Palestinian militant groups had applauded. Also complicating the path to the cease-fire were Israeli strikes overnight on Gaza.

Egyptian and American officials did not immediately divulge details of the agreement, and it was unclear how it would be enforced. But Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu of Israel, who had been threatening to launch another ground invasion if the Gaza rockets did not stop, said in a statement that he was satisfied, for the moment, with the outcome.

[awesome possum]

Apparently, RIL thinks

That's your mistake. RiL has proven several times over that what she thinks is very similar to what can be found in an outhouse.

http://www.reuters.c...E8AK0HS20121121

When even Reuters is headlining an article to state that the Palestinians are cheering a bus being blown up, it's clear to me which side needs to lose this conflict. Hamas is directing attacks at civilians, and cheering when they suceed. The Israelis are directing attacks at combatants, whom Hamas has surrounded with noncombatants for media consumption by the gullible.

That sort of reaction to a deliberate attack targeting civilians is, in plain terms, evil.

During my weekly bout of sado-masochism I heard your pal Rush spout this same "defense" almost line for line.

How's that thinking independently thing working out for you?

[Ser Reptitious]

RIL,

It probably won't surprise you that I strongly disagree with pretty much everything you've said in your posts addressed to me, but having said that, I appreciate the fact that you have taken the time to provide a thorough response.

I actually want to respond to your second post first, because I think it'll help to clear up some misconceptions:

Maybe, SerRepititious, you should be asking Hamas what you asked of me; because their own words show that they do not believe or feel Jews to be human beings. Ask THEM if Jews have hopes, and dreams. Here are some words from Hamas: ...

Qaradawai has repeated his genocidal wishes, and Mursi, Egypts leader, has echoed him in prayers. So, I think it is clear that Hamas is the one guilty of any dehumanization.

Hamas =/= all Palestinians (or whatever you want to call them)

Even at the 2006 election, which Hamas won, it only received 44.45 percent of the popular vote.

I don't like Hamas and I am neither defending it nor its tactics in any sort of way. (Having said that, I realize that they won't vanish into thin air just because that's what I would like them to do. They will have to be dealt with one way or another, and the fact that Fatah is getting nowhere in its attempt to negotiate a lasting peace agreement with the Israeli government only strengthens them further.)

So trust me, if I got into an argument with a Hamas supporter who expressed the kind of repulsive sentiments that you quoted in your post above I would have no problem asking the same questions concerning the dehumanization of the 'Other'.

Yes, those people are humans. You prick them and they bleed, they blow up when they strap bombs to themselves as well. Because they have spent the last 60 or so years devising new and different ways to kill and maim as many Israelis as they possibly can, I dont believe they have any RIGHT of return at all. Terrorists and criminals should get no parts of the proceeds of their venal acts. Yes, the people there do have hopes and dreams. But they are nothing like me. And I should hope you would never wish to claim any sort of kinship witrh them either. . THEY, the So Called Palistinians of the Islamic type (SCP's <too long to write the term each time, no diserespect is intended by the abbreviation>) hope to kill Israelis; to maim and destroy. They wish to kill Jews, whom they believe are sub human, the descendants of apes and pigs as the Koran and Islam teaches. They still dream of a day when Jews are no more. Their prayers state how wonderful it will be when Jews are destroyed. If they WANTED peace, theyd have it; Israel seeks peace and has demonstrated that time and time again. SCP's do not.

Just out of curiosity, have you ever actually personally interacted with any Palestinians? Because in this paragraph you're essentially saying that every last one of them is a violent criminal and terrorist who yearns for nothing more than to kill Jews. I'm sure that there is a certain percentage of the Palestinian population that this applies to (and Hamas, Islamic Jihad, and other groups of that ilk probably contain most of them), but I'll wager that the vast majority wants nothing more than the same aspirations that we all have: to be able to live a good life. I have visited the Aida refugee camp, Bethlehem, and Ramallah, and I have spoken with quite a few of the locals (and I did this as a tourist while traveling around in the Middle East on my own, btw, not as part of some large group that was simply being given a PR treatment). They certainly didn't hold back telling me about the perceived injustices that they have suffered, and they had quite a bit of anger towards the settlers (perfectly understandable in my view), but they realized that Israel isn't going anywhere and that some form of accommodation between the two sides is unavoidable. The main thing most of them yearned for was to either be allowed to get their properties back that are now located within Israel (most of them still have kept their property deeds) or at least be financially compensated for what they've lost.

You may agree or disagree with their views (and I have a hunch which way you see things, RIL), but that's certainly a long way from the wide-eyed fanatics cartoon version of Palestinians that you seem to portray.

My dreams are to improve the Earth; SCP's fantasize of destruction (to continue in deflating your attempt to paint those people as Just Like Me). They even glamorize killing their own. I look in horror at the idea of sending young children to their deaths with bombs strapped upon their bodies; THEY seem to think it is a good family value. What sort of human species glorifies the destruction of its young? Not a very good sort, I believe. Palestinian TV is full of songs that encourage children to become jihad martyrs. I can not and will not ever support or empathize with a people who do not even seem to love their own offspring. Children ARE a peoples future, and the so called palestineans gladly kill their own. Song encouraging martyrdom amongst so called palistinian children:

In fact, here is some evidence that Hamas and Islamic Jihad staged some of the photos of the dead kids and faked some others, using footage from otherconflicts. http://www.foxnews.c...as-desperation/

see above

It is not the Christian Arab SCP's who are the ones committing the acts of terrorism. In fact,

those poor people are themselves being terrorized by the Muslim SCP's.

Intesting that you make this distinction. But guess what? The Christian Palestinians are treated exactly the same by the Israeli government as the rest of them. So do you think that's wrong?

Right of return? Where was the outrage and the demand for this when Jordan held the West Bank? NO WHERE, because there is no such thing in reality, it is simply a talking point with which to bother Israel with.

Huh? I'm confused here. What does Jordan holding the West Bank have to do with the right of return? The right of return deals with people who had to flee from the territory that ultimately became Israel in 1948. The West Bank has never been a part of that.

The Arabs pre Israel had every choice in the world to remain as part of the new nation and be Israeli citizens. THEY refused it, so, I see no "right of return" for those who left on their own OR were forced out NOT by the fledgling nation of Israel, but by other Arabs who threatened their brethren who wished to remain in Israel.

Umm, I assume that you are familiar with Irgun and the Deir Yassin massacre, for example, right?

From the link:

The Deir Yassin massacre was carried out in a village west of Jerusalem that had signed a non-belligerency pact with its Jewish neighbors and the Haganah, and repeatedly had barred entry to foreign irregulars.^[44][45] On 9 April approximately 120 Irgun and Lehi members began an operation to capture the village. During the operation Irgun members shot at fleeing individuals and families. A Haganah report writes: The conquest of the village was carried out with great cruelty. Whole families – women, old people, children – were killed. ... Some of the prisoners moved to places of detention, including women and children, were murdered viciously by their captors.^[46]

The operation resulted in five Irgun members dead and 40 injured and 100 to 120 dead villagers.^[47]

Some say that this incident was an event that accelerated the Arab exodus from Palestine.^[48]

Can you really blame Arab families subsequently fleeing from their homes and villages in what became Israel whenever they heard of Irgun or other paramilitary/military groups allied with Israel approaching? And just because they fled, reasonably fearing for their lives, they should never be allowed to return? That seems pretty harsh and unfair to me.

If you believe in the right of return, do you support Jews who wish to return to the Arab nations where they were forcibly expelled from?

Absolutely and unequivocally yes!

There is no "right of return", I maintain for anyone who left voluntarily AND who has acted as abominably as the so called palestinians have done; they revoked their so called rights, IF they had any, by the heinous nature of their acts and deeds since they left.

So what about any Palestinians (or their descendants) who have fled that never took up arms against Israel? Should they be allowed to return?

BUT, if any wish to be considered for Israeli citizenship, fine by me, IF Israel wishes to accept their applications. BUT, I believe Israel would be foolish to allow such terrorists to live within her borders.

The bolded part is very nice of you, but unfortunately Israel does not offer this option to the refugees. If they did, I suspect quite a few would take Israel up on it.

Its not a matter of whom they pray to that makes me despise them. Its who they prey upon that makes them despicable, in my opinion. Its how they (the so called palestineans) act; their brutal vicious ideology of hate and their cowardly and craven acts of terrorism which I deem savage and contemptable. Here is Hamas taunting Israel about upcoming suicide missions: http://www.palwatch....157&doc_id=7996 Gazans are happily singing songs about attacking Tel Aviv, lyrics proclaiming they want no truce or solution: http://www.memritv.o...lip/en/3638.htm We dont see Israel gaily singing about attacking the Gaza. Here is another article on how they encourage their own kids to die for the sake of "Palestine" http://frontpagemag....mp_FrontPageMag

Again, your conflating all Palestinians. I think I already covered this upthread.

Lastly, a bit of cultural compare and contrasting. Weddings here are joyous events where two people start a new life together, a new family. Over THERE, a "wedding" can be a union, but it is also how a martyrs funeral is called. And it is a celebration. I guess they think THAT is a happy union as well. BIG difference between them and us, isnt it.

Irish funerals tend to be happy affairs as well. And we certainly celebrate our dead soldiers as heros.

WE do not celebrate OUR terrorist killers; who applauds the Beltway Sniper or Tim McVeigh?. At least, the sane of us do not. There is no holiday to celebrate the bombs dropping on Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

Your examples don't work because these people attacked their own kind. And we certainly celebrate our veterans and their accomplishments, despite the fact that they may have done some unsavoury things during World War II, for example, which we view as something that was a necessary evil. The Palestinians likely see things much the same way.

[Padraig]

Israel has to change their own tone and stop their own haywire responses and that cannot be ignored either. They cannot just bomb their problems away. Election year or not.

The Palestinians elected Hamas in Gaza. They have what they wanted. That same leadership fires rockers on almost a daily basis into Israel because that is what Hamas wants and Gaza wants Hamas.

Interesting two posts. You seem to be missing the point that brutal times lead to brutal people. People say that the Palestinians are getting what they deserve but you can't bomb people into liking you. (It's basic human nature). Instead they become even more brutal. That is what has happened here. It's not that people should condone Hamas in anyway but one should realise the historic context behind their actions, so that rather than repeat one's mistakes, one finds a new path (or at least tries to).

When Hamas states clearly and consistently that all of Palestine will be regained through Jihad, and that all negotiations have the sole purpose of cease fires, then seriously, how naive can you get?

Is this really answering me? It would be naive to suggest that negotiations will definitely lead to peace. Why is it naive to suggest that one should at least offer to negotiate? Is the point that Hamas will just say no? But how does that hurt Israel in any way?

This honestly puzzles me. Logically, I don't see what you lose by trying to negotiate. If Hamas aren't interested at least you can say that after trying. And if Hamas say yes then how is that bad? I know you said you would not negotiate with terrorists but its a climbdown by both sides since Hamas isn't getting what they wanted either (Jihad doesn't involve negotating with the enemy). In fact, I would have thought its a bigger climbdown by Hamas.

So yes, it doesn't make sense to me. We wouldn't try to negotiate because we have always said we wouldn't negotiate. And so the killing continues.

[Ser Reptitious]

mcbigski,

http://www.reuters.c...E8AK0HS20121121

When even Reuters is headlining an article to state that the Palestinians are cheering a bus being blown up, it's clear to me which side needs to lose this conflict. Hamas is directing attacks at civilians, and cheering when they suceed. The Israelis are directing attacks at combatants, whom Hamas has surrounded with noncombatants for media consumption by the gullible.

That sort of reaction to a deliberate attack targeting civilians is, in plain terms, evil.

You're making the same mistake as RIL: Hamas =/= Palestinians in general

Hamas is a sub-group of the Palestinians, just like the settlers are a sub-group of Israelis. The views and actions of the subgroups on either side should not be mistaken for the views and actions of the group as a whole.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

SerRep,

The hard part is that Hamas was elected to control the PA. Now there haven't been PA elections since 2006 so I don't know how valid their mandate to govern can still be viewed.

[Shryke]

SerRep,

The hard part is that Hamas was elected to control the PA. Now there haven't been PA elections since 2006 so I don't know how valid their mandate to govern can still be viewed.

About as valid as any dictator I'd say.

I mean, you guys negotiated with Mubarak for years. :P

[The Iceman of the North]

The hard part is that Hamas was elected to control the PA. Now there haven't been PA elections since 2006 so I don't know how valid their mandate to govern can still be viewed.

Given that the Israeli and US response to the 2006 election was to denounce democracy as a legitimate way to chose a government, and declaring that they would refuse any contact with any PA government that included members from Hamas, the question of mandate seems rather moot.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

Iceman,

So, Hamas is the legitimate PA government... forever?

[Ser Reptitious]

SerRep,

The hard part is that Hamas was elected to control the PA. Now there haven't been PA elections since 2006 so I don't know how valid their mandate to govern can still be viewed.

Scot,

I'm honestly not quite sure what point you're making. Could you clarify?

Mandates and all that aside, the reality is that Fatah currently controls the West Bank and Hamas controls Gaza.

[Robin Of House Hill]

That's your mistake. RiL has proven several times over that what she thinks is very similar to what can be found in an outhouse.

White, soft and found on a roll?

[The Iceman of the North]

No Scot, currently Fatah is the legitimate PA government, but they only have control of the West Bank. Hamas mandate to govern is not based on any current election result, but on the "right of conquest" by ousting Fatah from the Gaza strip. Since Hamas is the de facto government of the Gaza strip, they are who people have to deal with.

Talking about "the mandate" to govern when neither Hamas nor Israel recognizes basic democratic principles was what I referred to as moot.

[snake]

As Fez posted, there seems to be a ceasefire. So that's good. Hope it lasts.

[The Iceman of the North]

Two hours in and still holing, but this is not the Balkans, cease fires tend to last here.

[Ken Stone]

I still don't understand how Obama managed to pull it off. I thought it was supposed to be the economy, stupid. What does everyone think is the greatest contributor to Obama overcoming such a huge handicap? Was Obama just that much better, or was the GOP just that much more pathetic?

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

Ken, Trisk,

I think y'all have the wrong thread.

[KAH]

Ken, Trisk,

I think y'all have the wrong thread.

Not according to the thread

title...

[Yoadm]

No, it's their starting point. It is not necessarily their end point. You don't know what their end point is because you haven't really negotiated with them.

So you wanna conduct peace negotiations with them when their starting position is "no peace".

Why don't we look at what actually happened and note that they tried to negotiate with Nazi Germany. You bruoght the issue up yourself with Neville Chamberlain. When that didn't work, they went with "wipe them out". They didn't go with "push the Nazis back to the German borders every 4-5 years".

And Hamas wasn't born yesterday. It's response to any kind of negotiation was a wave of terror bombings in order to get Israeli hardliners elected. Their own words when interviewed to the foreign press at the time.

Except you can't pursue a containment strategy with an enemy that can lob rockets at you from their backyards. Or, you can, but you just end up with the situation you are living with now where they are lobbing rockets at you from their backyard.

If you don't like the results of containment, you are gonna have to switch strategies. And if you can't accept annihilation, you are gonna have to negotiate with them.

The problem is this: You seem to think that as long as the current situation is bad, there has to be a better alternative. In this case, they all seem to be worse.

Is this really answering me? It would be naive to suggest that negotiations will definitely lead to peace. Why is it naive to suggest that one should at least offer to negotiate? Is the point that Hamas will just say no? But how does that hurt Israel in any way?

They already stated. No peace negotiations. Cease fire negotiations. That's pretty much what's happening here only indirectly. The only thing you get is instead of indirect cease-fire negotiations, direct cease fire negotiations with Hamas. All you get from that over what's currently going on is legitimizing them.