Sanderson is done with WoT part 2

[Lightning Lord]

Can you post a small excerpt of the section? I don't clearly remember this scene. Doesn't she offer a rationale? Something about being Amyrlin of the whole WT, not just of the rebels?

[WrathOfTinyKittens]

Re: battle channeling -

I think there's a couple of things going on. For one thing, most Aes Sedai are quite weak comparatively speaking. Throwing weaves of fire evidently doesn't take much effort, so even they can do it repeatedly in combat. We also see them using clubs of air frequently for non-lethal situations (the Black sisters in Tanchico and Tear).

We know that instant kills are possible even for normal Aes Sedai, but RJ tells us that one needs to be skilled in Healing to perform them (we learn this from the Black sisters).

Finally, it's been two thousand years since the Aes Sedai were involved in a war on a large scale. Simply, the haven't had the time or the need to develop, remember, or teach more complex fighting wards.

I'll admit that there's less excuse for Rand and the Super Girls post-Moghedien. But we see them develop new and exciting ways to kill as time goes by, especially once Rand has his dual revelations in TGS that let him become, essentially, a super badass (and by extension Logain and the other Asha'man).

One thing I wish Rand did more was use what the Forsaken used against him. We see it a bit when he reuses the red string thingies that Sammael throws at him, but Asmodean hangs razor lines in the air around Rhuidean which would be perfect for the battles in Tear or at Maradon. But he doesn't use them.

[Shryke]

Can you post a small excerpt of the section? I don't clearly remember this scene. Doesn't she offer a rationale? Something about being Amyrlin of the whole WT, not just of the rebels?

It was basically making them apologize for breaking the White Tower, because that should never happen, even if for the best of reasons.

[WrathOfTinyKittens]

LL - Yep, that's right. Basically she says that now that she's the Amyrlin of the White Tower, duty compels her to punish them for rebelling. Instead of a harsher punishment she makes them formally apologize.

Honestly I found it pretty weak, but I guess she had to do something to help win over the rest of the TAS.

[Lightning Lord]

Shryke, Wrath, that's what I recalled. Makes sense to me. She needs to be leader of the whole, not play "Rebels are my favorites" card. That said...did she apologize as well, for being a part of the Rebel Tower and leading an assault against the Tower? Or was that just dandy in Mary Suegwene book?

[Poobah]

Just finished TGS. Now thats a satisfying ending of a book for me

One thing that stood out for me though-Egwene making the rebels apologise after she was made Amyrlin in the WT. Bit odd anyone?

One of the many signs of her turning in to even more of a massive knob. And of the positive potential she had ie. being able to change the white tower, just totally fizzling out. Right around the same time she decided that swearing the three oaths was a good idea.

Shryke, Wrath, that's what I recalled. Makes sense to me. She needs to be leader of the whole, not play "Rebels are my favorites" card. That said...did she apologize as well, for being a part of the Rebel Tower and leading an assault against the Tower? Or was that just dandy in Mary Suegwene book?

No apology from her "I am the Amyrlin" or something to that effect. Someone balefire this girl already.

[fionwe1987]

One of the many signs of her turning in to even more of a massive knob. And of the positive potential she had ie. being able to change the white tower, just totally fizzling out. Right around the same time she decided that swearing the three oaths was a good idea.

No apology from her "I am the Amyrlin" or something to that effect. Someone balefire this girl already.

Time for a reread, perhaps?

Egwene looked up at the Sitters, who were watching in stunned silence. "I'd order you all to do penance," Egwene said, "save for the fact that I know some of you, at least, were working behind the scenes to stop the crumbling of the White Tower. You didn't do enough, but you did something. Beyond that, I think that the penance we often demand of ourselves is ridiculous. What is physical pain to Aes Sedai?"

Egwene took a deep breath. "And I am not guiltless either. I share some of your shame, for it was during my tenure that these disasters occurred. I sided with the rebels, allowed myself to be raised by them because it was the only choice. But that choice still gives me culpability.

[Lightning Lord]

I don't see her having the rebels apologize as being that terrible of an action. Of course, the Tower lot should have to apologize too, and then maybe they can share some cookies and juice boxes so that they'll be able to get along during tomorrow's recess play time.

[Shryke]

I think it's totally in character for her. She's really drank the White Tower kool-aid.

[fionwe1987]

I think it's totally in character for her. She's really drank the White Tower kool-aid.

How so? How does anyone who has done that not accept as truth a Wise Ones statement that Aes Sedai are fools? Egwene did that with a direct statement, after she had sworn on the Oath Rod, so there is no possible way for her to lie about this.

[Frey Pie]

I just feel its a bit of a kick in the teeth for the rebel sisters. I mean fair enough Egwene says shes not guiltless, but does she apologise? Do the Aes Sedai in the Tower have to apologise for allowing the Tower to come to such a state? No. Sure she gave some Sitters a good talking to but even so. To make the others follow her Egwene did not have to i feel, alienate her loyal followers. Making Silviana Keeper was a great move, and keeping the Red and not disbanding them as many thought she would was also a sound move. Purging the Tower of Blacks, and these moves were giant leaps to mending the tower divides. Really i dont think there was a need for the apolog. Did Siuan and Leane deserve to apologise to the women, many of whom sanctioned her stilling and execution?

[Poobah]

edit: This is responding to Fionwe : So? Egwene-sue wears so many different masks - she's all over the place and hasn't any substance of her own. As with all other situations she's been in she's doing her boring old mimic act instead of actually being someone of her own.

[Wulfram]

Hasn't it been established that the Aes Sedai believe that doing the right thing doesn't get you out of punishment for breaking the rules in process?

I think it's the sort of Aes Sedai thinking that even the rebels would respect.

[Frey Pie]

Hasn't it been established that the Aes Sedai believe that doing the right thing doesn't get you out of punishment for breaking the rules in process?

I think it's the sort of Aes Sedai thinking that even the rebels would respect.

Id say its true in places. Siuan pays Bryne for breaking her oath. Yet she doesnt punish herself for sending of the girls to fight the Black Ajah. Moiraine uses the forbidden Balefire and so on and so forth

[Which Tyler]

I'd say it was more of a wise one thing than an Aes Sedai thing. Either way though, completely in character for Egwene

[Rhom]

Hasn't it been established that the Aes Sedai believe that doing the right thing doesn't get you out of punishment for breaking the rules in process?

I think it's the sort of Aes Sedai thinking that even the rebels would respect.

I thought that was more of a Wise Ones way of thinking. Make your decision, and take the consequences for it.

ETA: Looks like Tyler and I had the same thought at the same time. :thumbsup:

[Shryke]

How so? How does anyone who has done that not accept as truth a Wise Ones statement that Aes Sedai are fools? Egwene did that with a direct statement, after she had sworn on the Oath Rod, so there is no possible way for her to lie about this.

I think she means it.

I just think she's drunk the kool-aid. She's like 100% "White Tower is best Tower" now and it must be upheld at all costs and our practices and traditions are mostly awesome. You can see her views switch over the few books of her being Amyrlin.

As said above, it's more a Wise One thing than an Aes Sedai thing, but the implicit assumption is that "breaking the White Tower is wrong!" which can be viewed as a kinda dubious stance on the issues of the Aes Sedai we've been seeing.

[fionwe1987]

edit: This is responding to Fionwe : So? Egwene-sue wears so many different masks - she's all over the place and hasn't any substance of her own. As with all other situations she's been in she's doing her boring old mimic act instead of actually being someone of her own.

Who exactly is she mimicking here? I'm sorry, but this seems like you simply copied some previous criticism of Egwene you made and posted it here. Apart from the fact that it is a ridiculous reading of her character, it isn't even remotely responsive to what I posted.

I just feel its a bit of a kick in the teeth for the rebel sisters.

In isolation, yes. But look at the big picture. They are not asked to say they hadn't broken Tower law (which they did, however justified they were). They get to keep their elected Amyrlin. They get to march their army into the city. None of them is getting any punishment for breaking Tower law, and in the long run, their rebellion has succeeded by every metric imaginable. The public apology is a sop to the losing Tower sisters, a technical acknowledgement that Tower law was broken. A very tiny price to pay for getting every one of your demands accepted, and reintegrating in peace.

I mean fair enough Egwene says shes not guiltless, but does she apologise?

Who is she supposed to apologize to? Herself? "Hey new Tower Amyrlin Egwene! I, old Rebel Amyrlin Egwene tender my sincerest apologies for Rebelling against the Tower you just regained because I rebelled against it..."! You see the problem, right?

Do the Aes Sedai in the Tower have to apologise for allowing the Tower to come to such a state? No. Sure she gave some Sitters a good talking to but even so.

The thing is, while what they did was terrible, they didn't break any laws doing it. Even Siuan's deposal was legal, if barely. The only possible violation of Tower Law there is Collusion, and I suspect that is impossible to prove at this point, with the mastermind of the collusion collared and unreachable.

What the Rebels did, while much more morally justifiable, was technically illegal, and in the larger sceme of things, represented the first openly known discord within the Tower. Their apology goes a long way towards upholding the supremacy of the law, and proving that even though the victors of any conflict write history, Tower Law is above that. It also goes to what Egwene learned from the Wise Ones: take what you want, and pay for it. The Rebels breaking of Tower Law was necessary and good, but it was a violation of the Law. Their apology was their payment for that.

As for Egwene herself, while she couldn't apologize to herself, there's also the point that she didn't foment the Rebellion. She was away from the Tower then. Did she give her wholehearted support and back them when she was summoned to be Amyrlin? Yes. But the fact remains that before that she was an Accepted, so not liable for answering to Aes Sedai when they ordered her to come to Salidar and become Amyrlin.

To make the others follow her Egwene did not have to i feel, alienate her loyal followers. Making Silviana Keeper was a great move, and keeping the Red and not disbanding them as many thought she would was also a sound move. Purging the Tower of Blacks, and these moves were giant leaps to mending the tower divides. Really i dont think there was a need for the apolog. Did Siuan and Leane deserve to apologise to the women, many of whom sanctioned her stilling and execution?

But she didn't alienate them. None of them, that I can remember, seemed to have an issue with it in the next book. In fact, their bigger issue was with her raising Silviana to be the Keeper. By refusing to play favorites with the Rebels, Egwene basically denied them the "spoils of war" as it were, and that's what seems to piss of Romanda, Lelaine and their ilk. The apology, I think, they would all support, since even during the middle of the Rebellion, the Aes Sedai who were part of it were conscious of the fact that their were the first to violate a 3000 year old law openly.

As for Siuan and Leanne, Egwene did exactly the right thing by including them in the apology. Not doing so would have been an acknowledgement, however small, that the time they were briefly not Aes Sedai was somehow correct. By lumping them with the other sisters who were part of the rebellion from the beginning, she refused to acknowledge that they were ever legitimately not a part of the Tower. But you're right that it blows that they had to apologize for doing something that is even more understandable in their case than the other Rebels. But they didn't have to apologize to those who stilled them. All the apologies were tendered to Egwene, as Amyrlin of the reunited Tower.

[fionwe1987]

I think she means it.

I just think she's drunk the kool-aid. She's like 100% "White Tower is best Tower" now and it must be upheld at all costs and our practices and traditions are mostly awesome. You can see her views switch over the few books of her being Amyrlin.

Actually, no. We do see her mellow towards the Tower, and the same happens with Nynaeve too. But at no point are either of them unaware of the deep flaws in the Tower. And Egwene has done more to change the Tower's practices and traditions than any Aes Sedai in 3000 years. A large part of that is what she learned from the Wise Ones, and her wish to see the White Tower organization become closer to what she sees among them. The only place where she totally flipped was the Three Oaths issue. That has still not played out, and while the time she flips on that is definitely the time she was getting deeply influenced by Siuan and her worldview of Aes Sedai, we're yet to see how her views on this might evolve, not that she has moved beyond needing Siuan to tell her what being Aes Sedai is.

As said above, it's more a Wise One thing than an Aes Sedai thing, but the implicit assumption is that "breaking the White Tower is wrong!" which can be viewed as a kinda dubious stance on the issues of the Aes Sedai we've been seeing.

Its not a dubious stance to say breaking the law is breaking the law, no matter what the justification was. Every time you break the law, justify it in your head, and then never pay for it, you dilute its strength. And while White Tower law is riddled with holes, that doesn't change the need for fealty to it. Egwene is making changes to the most idiotic of the laws, and that's fine. But meanwhile, breaking any of those laws must have a price, or the entire legal system becomes useless.

[Frey Pie]

Who exactly is she mimicking here? I'm sorry, but this seems like you simply copied some previous criticism of Egwene you made and posted it here. Apart from the fact that it is a ridiculous reading of her character, it isn't even remotely responsive to what I posted.

In isolation, yes. But look at the big picture. They are not asked to say they hadn't broken Tower law (which they did, however justified they were). They get to keep their elected Amyrlin. They get to march their army into the city. None of them is getting any punishment for breaking Tower law, and in the long run, their rebellion has succeeded by every metric imaginable. The public apology is a sop to the losing Tower sisters, a technical acknowledgement that Tower law was broken. A very tiny price to pay for getting every one of your demands accepted, and reintegrating in peace.

Who is she supposed to apologize to? Herself? "Hey new Tower Amyrlin Egwene! I, old Rebel Amyrlin Egwene tender my sincerest apologies for Rebelling against the Tower you just regained because I rebelled against it..."! You see the problem, right?

The thing is, while what they did was terrible, they didn't break any laws doing it. Even Siuan's deposal was legal, if barely. The only possible violation of Tower Law there is Collusion, and I suspect that is impossible to prove at this point, with the mastermind of the collusion collared and unreachable.

What the Rebels did, while much more morally justifiable, was technically illegal, and in the larger sceme of things, represented the first openly known discord within the Tower. Their apology goes a long way towards upholding the supremacy of the law, and proving that even though the victors of any conflict write history, Tower Law is above that. It also goes to what Egwene learned from the Wise Ones: take what you want, and pay for it. The Rebels breaking of Tower Law was necessary and good, but it was a violation of the Law. Their apology was their payment for that.

As for Egwene herself, while she couldn't apologize to herself, there's also the point that she didn't foment the Rebellion. She was away from the Tower then. Did she give her wholehearted support and back them when she was summoned to be Amyrlin? Yes. But the fact remains that before that she was an Accepted, so not liable for answering to Aes Sedai when they ordered her to come to Salidar and become Amyrlin.

But she didn't alienate them. None of them, that I can remember, seemed to have an issue with it in the next book. In fact, their bigger issue was with her raising Silviana to be the Keeper. By refusing to play favorites with the Rebels, Egwene basically denied them the "spoils of war" as it were, and that's what seems to piss of Romanda, Lelaine and their ilk. The apology, I think, they would all support, since even during the middle of the Rebellion, the Aes Sedai who were part of it were conscious of the fact that their were the first to violate a 3000 year old law openly.

As for Siuan and Leanne, Egwene did exactly the right thing by including them in the apology. Not doing so would have been an acknowledgement, however small, that the time they were briefly not Aes Sedai was somehow correct. By lumping them with the other sisters who were part of the rebellion from the beginning, she refused to acknowledge that they were ever legitimately not a part of the Tower. But you're right that it blows that they had to apologize for doing something that is even more understandable in their case than the other Rebels. But they didn't have to apologize to those who stilled them. All the apologies were tendered to Egwene, as Amyrlin of the reunited Tower.

Good points all but a number back-i do believe it was illegal as IIRC a number of the Sitters were Black who deposed Siuan and so do not count. This means that Siuan being deposed was illegal and so the White Tower is both morally and legally in the wrong.

Also i believe the apology is to the White Tower correct? The Amyrlin i believe, is not above the White Tower. She is of and is a symbol of the White Tower, but the sisters should be sorry for breaking the White Tower and all that it stands for and not merely the Amrylin Seat. So Egwene could have procalimed she is sorry for breaking and prolonging the break of the White Tower, sorry for allowing herself to be set up as an Amyrlin Seat outside of the White Tower, sorry for demanding and leading a war effort against the White Tower. I personally dont think she should, but being a good leader means doing what you demand of others. An hour before this she was forcing those same rebels to attack the Tower. Now she wants an apology from them, to her for following her orders? I just dont see the reason for the apology, especially an apology accepted by herself, their leader

I can understand why she ordered it, but i dont see why it was necessary