Dog advice.

[Fragile Bird]

ToL, you know back in the early 1920s, when Banting and Best were busy researching their eventual discovery of insulin in Toronto, they used dogs for their experiments. I read, or perhaps saw in a documentary, that dogs were hard to get, and they bought them from dealers. They actually suspected some were kidnapped house pets. After their discovery they gave a lot of praise for the role the dogs played in their work, and regretted the fact the dogs died. But I have a suspicion all the publicity given to the "brave dogs" who made the discovery of insulin possible led to the practice of sending dogs to labs for experiments acceptable for a long time. Insulin was really one of the first wonder drugs, and the discovery saved so many lives, the story of the research got publicity around the world. There are detailed storyboards in Toronto hospitals, and the events are very moving.

[Nukelavee]

Kay -oh, there are, although in this area it seems to be a"seasonal" thing, like once a year for a couple months low cost operations are available.

But, I'm on a fixed income, tight enough that a single trip to a fast food place can wreck my budget some months. I've skipped my own meds before to pay her shots and tags.

ToL - yeah, it kinda is. And my mom isn't a heartless person. But Squig was dumped in teh same area as a puppy, which is what tends to happen in the rural areas. That isn't a great ending, either.

I asked Mom about it, btw - remember, she was maybe 30 when this happened. Basically, those pups were doomed, to either starve, get hit on the highway, or get eaten by something. She just thought it was a less worse fate, but, then again, she admits she totally was in denial about animal testing, and was thinking more in terms of euthenized for dissection subjects.

[Nichole]

LTW,

I understand that not neutering your dog is your choice and I don't doubt for a second that you are a loving and responsible dog owner. A part of me gets that you don't want to subject your dog to a procedure that has a small chance of going wrong. But, I think of all the things I can enjoy doing with my dog and not having to worry about him impregnating another dog and I can imagine you cannot do because it would be too much a risk. That to me makes taking that risk necessary.

I like to take my dog to the off leash park, I like to take him hiking and on certain days in the mountains around my home he can be off leash. If I were to do these things with in intact dog I would be irresponsible. There would be too much of a risk that he would find a dog in heat and impregnate her. For these reasons, I will never keep an intact animal, cat or dog. The small risk of something going wrong during an operation does not out weigh what I think would be a detrimental impact on my pet's life.

[Fragile Bird]

Lady Tippy Wolfsbane:

You obviously love your dogs, you have researched a topic, and developed opinions about spay and neutering. This is a very interesting topic and maybe it should get it's own thread because on some things you are correct. Spay/neuter is heavily sold in the US and there are some issues, although other than urinary incontinence you haven't mentioned the other compelling reasons we might be over-selling these surgeries.

Ixodes, can you tell me two things. First, do the incontinence issues happen mainly in one sex or the other, or to both? Second, what are some of the compelling reasons spaying and neutering can be over-sold? I think this thread is as good a place as any to discuss this, and the way you put it, it sounds like something that should come from the POV of vets and people who work with vets. While there are a lot of lawyers on the Board, I don't know how many vets and veterinary workers there are to have a full discussion in it's own thread.

[Lady Tippy Wolfsbane]

There are always multiple avenues for discussion. In that case I probably would have linked to the BBC documentaries examining the show breeding and pedigree dog subculture in the UK, which do show the dangers that can result from some types of breeding pressure.

http://en.wikipedia....ee_Dogs_Exposed

http://en.wikipedia...._Three_Years_On

While I would in no way want to imply a self-proclaimed breeder of fine animals is not aware of some of the pitfalls, it is always important to raise awareness of animal welfare issues linked to some breed specifications. Not only in dogs, I have seen pieces on similar issues with horses and cats for example.

:agree:

LTW,

I understand that not neutering your dog is your choice and I don't doubt for a second that you are a loving and responsible dog owner. A part of me gets that you don't want to subject your dog to a procedure that has a small chance of going wrong. But, I think of all the things I can enjoy doing with my dog and not having to worry about him impregnating another dog and I can imagine you cannot do because it would be too much a risk. That to me makes taking that risk necessary.

I like to take my dog to the off leash park, I like to take him hiking and on certain days in the mountains around my home he can be off leash. If I were to do these things with in intact dog I would be irresponsible. There would be too much of a risk that he would find a dog in heat and impregnate her. For these reasons, I will never keep an intact animal, cat or dog.

I never take my dogs to off leash parks, because I do not trust other people and their dogs. My dogs only have play dates with people and pets I know personally, so my dog is never in a situation that I cannot control around other dogs. When we go for walks in the nature preserve he is on an extra long leash hooked to his collar and backpack. When we go to the beach I choose times when I know few people will be there and he wears a diaper.

Your reasons for not keeping an intact animal are your own, and I fully understand and agree with them. However, my dog can still lead an active lifestyle intact. I never stated that anyone else should consider leaving their pets intact, nor did I try to persuade the OP to keep his dogs intact. I only defended my choice.

The small risk of something going wrong during an operation does not out weigh what I think would be a detrimental impact on my pet's life.

That's your opinion and I totally understand. The small risk that my dog could die or have a complication outweighs the small risk that he could impregnate another dog, at this point. Especially when I am taking steps to ensure it doesn't happen, therefore making the risk even smaller. That is my view.

[Ixodes]

Ixodes, can you tell me two things. First, do the incontinence issues happen mainly in one sex or the other, or to both? Second, what are some of the compelling reasons spaying and neutering can be over-sold? I think this thread is as good a place as any to discuss this, and the way you put it, it sounds like something that should come from the POV of vets and people who work with vets. While there are a lot of lawyers on the Board, I don't know how many vets and veterinary workers there are to have a full discussion in it's own thread.

Urinary incontinence is primarily a female dog problem. Very few male dogs will develop this and I've probably seen 2 cases in my career. In females it is much more common, with studies showing a rate of incontinence of anywhere from 5-20% of spayed dogs. In my practice, I see around 5-6%. It is a pain but in most cases it can be controlled with medications. The age at spay plays a role. Dog's spayed younger than 6 months (especially younger than 3 months) have a higher rate of urinary incontinence.

In terms of complications of spaying/neutering, we can break it down into broad categories. The first category is direct complications with with surgery and anesthesia. The links Yags provided gives you some good numbers of how frequent these occur. I will say that surgical technique, anesthetic/pain drug choices, and monitoring during anesthesia play a major role. Studies show that pets older than 2 years of age or obese pets have a higher rate of adverse events. So there is benefit to doing these surgeries with good veterinarians and on young healthy dogs. Spaying a dog during a heat cycle can lead to a higher rate of bleeding and post operative infections so I don't do it.

Second category is growth development. Removing the gonads will decrease metabolism by around 20%. If you don't adjust the food, the pets will get fat. Sex hormones play a role in bone/frame growth. Early removal of gonads does disrupt growth (this is seen in humans, too). There is a higher incidence of hip dysplasia and cruciate ligament injury in neutered/spayed dogs. Some of this surely overlaps with weight gain. Spayed females have a higher rate of bladder infections and this is likely secondary due to the development of the vulva and weight gain.

The third category is changing overall risks for certain diseases. This is the most complex area because there are no obvious cause-effect relationships but some interesting associations. Neutered/spayed pets have higher rates of certain tumors (osteosarcoma, hemangiosarcoma, transitional cell carcinoma of the bladder, and prostate adenocarcinoma). These are horrible tumors that cannot be cured. But there are many other factors, including genetics, that likely play a larger role.

So what are the benefits? The first most obvious is no unwanted litters. In the US, 56% of dog pregnancies and 68% cat pregnancies are unplanned. For females you also don't have to deal with estrus cycles. This actually is a big deal and almost all of my clients decide that they would rather risk incontinence than deal with once to twice yearly heat cycles. In male dogs/cats, you have less problems with aggression (interdog, dominance, territorial, and protective) and fewer urine marking problems.

For females, you massively reduce the risk of breast cancer (if you spay before the second heat cycle). This is the most common type of cancer in unspayed dogs/cats. You eliminate the chance of ovarian/uterine cancers but these are so rare it's not that big of a deal.

In males you eliminate the risk of testicular cancer (the second most common cancer in male dogs). You also don't have the risk of benign prostate enlargemtent and a much lower rate of prostate infections. Anal tumors and hernias around the anus are markedly reduced in neutered dogs.

So, yeah. It's a mixed bag. Overall the benefits do outweigh the negatives, given the right timing. I think spaying/neutering dogs before 6 months of age is a mistake. This is pushed by shelters/rescues and I understand why, it's just I wouldn't do it on my own dogs. Cats are different and I think that early spay/neuter isn't that big of a deal. The ideal time for dogs isn't 100% clear but (depending on breed) anywhere from 6-12 months seems best. Wait too much longer than that and you'll have more surgical complications (most of which, however, are managed relatively easily).

Most of the major potential issues (higher rates of fatal cancer) are influenced by many factors and I think that removing the gonads plays a minor role in these associations.

ETA: Here is a linkfor a great summation of ideal age of spay/neuter. It gives most of the numbers I mentioned.

ETA2: I totally forgot to mention uterine infections under benefits. Female dogs/cats can develop severe life threatenting uterine infections called pyometras. These are relatively common in older intact females. Spaying prevents this problem.

[Fragile Bird]

<snip>

Thank-you, Ixodes, that was both educational and helpful to me. :)

I appreciate you taking the time to write that.

[Deedles]

Thanks Ix. Good to know.

I read research saying neutering of larger dogs early (less than 18 months) was linked with sarcoma of the large bones. Would that be your experience too?

I'm planning on fixing my westie male at 8 to 10 months. What do you think wouldbe optimal?

I'm looking forward to bringing him to puppy socialisation hour at our local doggy daycare this weekend

[Ixodes]

Thanks Ix. Good to know.

I read research saying neutering of larger dogs early (less than 18 months) was linked with sarcoma of the large bones. Would that be your experience too?

I'm planning on fixing my westie male at 8 to 10 months. What do you think wouldbe optimal?

I'm looking forward to bringing him to puppy socialisation hour at our local doggy daycare this weekend

The tumor of the bones is called osteosarcoma and in susceptible breeds (large breed dogs) there is an association with neutering/spaying and a higher risk of this cancer. However, if you look a westie (neutered or not) the overall risk is very, very low. An unneutered rottweiler has a much higher chance of this cancer than a neutered westie. So that tells me that in a breed with a high risk, removing the gonads plays a role but it isn't that big of a role. I personally have never seen an osteosarcoma in a dog that weighed less than 50lbs (they are out there, just in much lower numbers than big breed dogs).

For a dog like a westie, 8-10 months sounds good.

[Rolex Baratheon]

I admit that I don't have much knowledge of an issue, so I come to ask questions from the people over at General Chatter. Then I get abused for my lack of knowledge, the person doing the abusing faces no admin punishment whatsoever, I get suspended for 3 days and find, on following th this topic after that, the real non-spam answers came like 6 to 7 pages later.

Anyhow this is basically me explaining why you guys shouldn't be so pissed.

"Neuter your dog."

"What are the side effects?"

"You &$%*%&%&$$&$ piece of ^$&#*$&$*# why the hell you so against neutering?"

When did I say I'm totally against it? When? I have reservations, because guess what, that is normal considering neutering is a major, final sort of operation which will change the rest of my male dog's life and because there is a major lack of proper vets in my area who even perform such an operation (a fact ignored by many of you).

I noticed in the later pages that someone mentioned neutering has side effects like blood loss or infections and stuff like that. Did any of you pro-neutering guys tell me that in the middle of your endless torrent of racial and personal abuse? It would've been easier if you did.

Anyhow, on a side note, I noticed some of the people (including administrators lol) called BS on me saying I found good homes for all the pups. Well basically their posts made me want to facepalm considering that they ignored a few things I said. Again, spam and I'm not compelled by any sort of forum rules to reply to it, but it kind of nags at me so:

1. The pups weren't mongrels. I mentioned clearly that my golden retriever wasn't a year old and that my female spaniel was 7 years old and that the retriever hasn't mated yet so... Yeah, chronological fail. They're spaniels.

2. I know loads of dog loving people and where I'm from there's a lot of free dog-giving to your close friends. We distributed all the pups cost free to our close friends over 7 years. Is that so hard to believe? And spaniels where pretty rare back there, and add to that the general awesomeness of the breed and we got like hundreds of requests from people, both friends and strangers, asking for a pup or two.

EDIT: Terra-prime, hope this doesn't have anything objectionable to you because I took care to rephrase it and reword it.

[Elder Sister]

Rolex, you asked for advice. You got it but didn't like it. Let it go, man.

[Rolex Baratheon]

Rolex, you asked for advice. You got it but didn't like it. Let it go, man.

You sure you read what I just said? I got interrogations up till a certain point when I eventually started getting advice. Look I'm just trying to remove any misconceptions people would have gotten.

And I'm sure I didn't actually deserve to be insulted/abused. Heck I didn't even say I didn't like the advice (the stuff that was indeed advice... And I still don't know the final verdict on neutering).

[Balefont]

For your situation, get the boys fixed. At least maybe the younger of the two.

[Rolex Baratheon]

For your situation, get the boys fixed. At least maybe the younger of the two.

Will it cause bleeding and all that? There's a dearth of good vets around here.

[Howdyphillip]

You sure you read what I just said? I got interrogations up till a certain point when I eventually started getting advice. Look I'm just trying to remove any misconceptions people would have gotten.

And I'm sure I didn't actually deserve to be insulted/abused. Heck I didn't even say I didn't like the advice (the stuff that was indeed advice... And I still don't know the final verdict on neutering).

I have no doubt that you love your dogs. Otherwise, you would not be asking questions about their care, but the situation that you described is border line abusive. Your dogs are fighting each other, and breeding without your knowledge. That is not responsible pet ownership.

I am not telling you this to hurt your feelings, or to attack you as a person. You seem to want to do what is best for your animals. You just don't have the knowledge. Instead of defending your position, take a step back and really listen to what has been said. Either neuter your male dogs so they don't fight, or keep them separated. Don't allow them to breed unless you want puppies.

[Yagathai]

Just when I thought I was out, they pull me back in!

[TerraPrime]

Just when I thought I was out, they pull me back in!

"Just say no."

- Nancy

[Ken Stone]

Will it cause bleeding and all that? There's a dearth of good vets around here.

The bleeding happen when a sharp instrument is used. I suggest just using a hammer and smashing the testies.

[Balefont]

Will it cause bleeding and all that? There's a dearth of good vets around here.

Ix would be better at answering as to whether or not this is a valid concern. Yet, I think for males the surgery is less invasive so there should be less complications. My boy bounced back very quickly (too quickly, we had to keep him calm until he was fully healed) and my girl took a little while longer.

Yeah, keeping two 7 month old Boxer pups "calm" at the same time for two weeks was immensely challenging to say the least.

ETA: Dude, your dogs are fighting and it's not going to get better unless you plan on devoting all your time to their exercise and training and separating them when no one is there to supervise them.

Would you rather risk one of them seriously maiming or killing the other?! The chances of that happening far outweigh the risks of having them fixed for fucks sake!

[Rolex Baratheon]

Ix would be better at answering as to whether or not this is a valid concern. Yet, I think for males the surgery is less invasive so there should be less complications. My boy bounced back very quickly (too quickly, we had to keep him calm until he was fully healed) and my girl took a little while longer.

Yeah, keeping two 7 month old Boxer pups "calm" at the same time for two weeks was immensely challenging to say the least.

ETA: Dude, your dogs are fighting and it's not going to get better unless you plan on devoting all your time to their exercise and training and separating them when no one is there to supervise them.

Would you rather risk one of them seriously maiming or killing the other?! The chances of that happening far outweigh the risks of having them fixed for fucks sake!

Are you trying to get into trouble or something? The fighting stopped some time back and they never injured each other. Seriously.

Anyhow this is a Dog Advice thread so I guess I can ask the question here; I got a 7 year old male spaniel and less than a year old golden retriever male and then an 8 or 8.5 year old female spaniel.... Would it be wise to get a 2 month old female pup in say, 3 or 4 months time, as a 4th dog? I'm considering it, because our new house has a big-enough sort of lawn.