R+L=J v. 36

[Gi_Varotti]

That's exactly why I think the Ashara rumour was started. If Jon did end up with blonde hair and violet eyes, and there was a rumour going around that Ashara Dayne, a woman with Targ features, was the mother, no one would jump to the conclusion that he was one of Rhaegar's kids. They would think Jon was Dayne to the bone instead. The fact that Ashara was not around to say otherwise and was known to have been visited by Ned shortly after she had given birth would have only strengthened the legitimacy of the rumour had Jon grown up with pale hair and violet eyes.

Someone extremely cluey must have started the rumour, and while I think Benjen or even Howland Reed was the instigator, Jon Arryn at least deserves a mention since he has shown a knack for guessing secret lineages in the past.

So true. I really believe that Benjen knows/knew the truth (and besides being only a kid, he was clever enough to keep his mouth shut), Howland *knows* it but Arryn never did (he was to marry Lisa and I think Ned and the other ones involved on the events at the ToJ probably knew about her and Littlefinger's past so they wouldn't risk having Arryn knowing it and telling his crazy wife). I think Howland Reed is the key to everything and maybe he was the one that started Ashara's rumour.

But a curious thing is that the only person that I 'saw' mentioning Ashara as Ned's secret lover was Cat (I could be wrong by not remembering anyone else). Even Robert believed that Jon was the fisherwoman's son, I mean I heard more people talking about Wylla than Ashara.

Actually Stannis figured it out first from reading that book.

And was clever enough to not confront that Lannister b*tch directly like Ned did.

[MtnLion]

When Edric Dayne is talking with Arya, he brings up Ashara. The head of horse at Winterfell is in the group and consoles Arya, and he was either the source of the rumor, or knows who the source is.

[Winds of Winter blow cold]

Cersei brings it up.

[Old-Growth]

Sorry, poor choice of words. I was referring to information provided in previous books, not the actual timeline when I said 'in the past' :)

I should not be so fussy about this sort of thing, but pedantry is alas an inclination and a matter of training. Still, my observation is that I am not the only picker of nits in this forum. :)

[corbon]

When Edric Dayne is talking with Arya, he brings up Ashara. The head of horse at Winterfell is in the group and consoles Arya, and he was either the source of the rumor, or knows who the source is.

The source of the rumour is patently obvious.

Ned Stark, recently (comparatively, theres been a war on and he was on the other side) married to his brother's fiance, came away from Starfall with a hitherto unknown bastard and the young lady of Starfall, already disgraced, committed suicide.

The noble young lovers torn apart by war and the exigencies of family service, and it was just too much for the girl when the boy took the baby away, on top of losing her lover, and her noble brother.

Its a blindingly obvious story from widely known public information, that suits everyone involved.

Ned because it obscures and covers Jon's origins and the Daynes because it paints Ashara in a nobly tragic light, rather than an unpleasant suicide (all the more if her suicide was fake).

[Conchobar]

It would be funny if George actually never confirmed this in the books just to piss us off.

[Bolivar]

I can't imagine that someone purposely started the Dayne rumor "just in case." Some thought it was Wylla and others the fisherman's daughter. Besides, it's obvious there was *something* between Ned and Ashara to not need a rumor at all. When Cat brought up Ashara, Ned doesn't just staunchly deny it, he flips out.

[Old-Growth]

It would be funny if George actually never confirmed this in the books just to piss us off.

Har! If he did that and came to my favorite local bookstore to do a reading, I might well picket the event. But by his own statement he will tell us in TWoW or ADoS. So, no surprises for you or the rest of us on this account at least. :)

[DarkFlame]

Hey or Welcome! I'm new to this forum but I love so much asoiaf that I couldn't resist ;) In my opinion R+L=J may be true but it's a little bit weird that first of all, Lyanna was so angry and bitching about Robert's behavior and his bastard child but she didn't mind that Rhaegar had 2 kids and a wife? The second a little bit hypocrite example of theirs relationship may be that Rhaegar as he said needed 3 kids right? So... He choose Lyanna mainly because of that? So what if Elia could have one more kid? Then this relationship wouldn't exist? I don't think that Martin would do that (change Lyanna from warrior and independent girl to hypocrite girl that don't know that this relationship and such behaviour is not good and Rhaegar from noble and good prince to guy that want very badly 3 kids!) I read somewhere that Rhaegar wasn't with Elia when she was pregnant with her son, and didn't know that she couldn't have any more kids ( I know that Deny saw him with Elia and Aegon so it's rather unbelievable but maybe he really didn't know about her state (that she can't have any more kids)? but later after he meet Lyanna he didn't care? I know, I know.... but I really hope that he isn't I-need-more-kids-freak)

Btw Sorry for my grammar mistakes but I am not from England nor USA :P)

[Ygrain]

Hey or Welcome! I'm new to this forum but I love so much asoiaf that I couldn't resist ;) In my opinion R+L=J may be true but it's a little bit weird that first of all, Lyanna was so angry and bitching about Robert's behavior and his bastard child but she didn't mind that Rhaegar had 2 kids and a wife?

Hello and welcome to the forums.

These two situation are similar but not identical. If Lyanna married Robert, he would be sleeping around. With Rhaegar, even though he was married, she would be the only lover. Besides, there is this whole issue of a possible polygamous marriage, which puts their relationship to a yet different level.

The second stupid example of theirs relationship may be that Rhaegar as he said needed 3 kids right? So... He choose Lyanna mainly because of that? So what if Elia could have one more kid? Then this relationship wouldn't exist? It's stuuupid..... And I don't think that Martin would do that (change Lyanna from warrior and independent girl to stupid and hypocrite and Rhaegar from noble and good prince to freak that want very badly 3 kids!)

We do not know why he chose her. It is assumed that they were in love but that the need for a third child was the factor why their relationship didn't remain just platonic. I will refrain from commenting on your assessment of the characters but I would like to point out that given the large scheme of things, with the winter and Others coming, I see nothing fundamentally wrong with Rhaegar trying to fulfill the prophecy to save the kingdom.

I read somewhere that Rhaegar wasn't with Elia when she was pregnant with her son, and didn't know that she couldn't have any more kids ( I know that Deny saw him with Elia and Aegon so it's rather unbelievable but maybe he really didn't know about her state (that she can't have any more kids)? but later after he meet Lyanna he didn't care? I know, I know.... but I really hope that he isn't I-need-more-kids-freak)

The fact that Elia could bear no more children became confirmed onkly after Aegon's birth which nearly killed her, so even if she was able to conceive again and carry the child to the term, it would be most probably the death of her. Nowhere is it stated that Rhaegar didn't know this and there is no basis for assuming so.

Btw Sorry for my grammar mistakes but I am not from England nor USA :P)

Grammar is not an issue as many people speak English only as a second language here, but your choice of vocabulary might be. It would be great help for the discussion if you could tone down your comments a bit.

[Queen of Procrastination]

Hey or Welcome! I'm new to this forum but I love so much asoiaf that I couldn't resist ;) In my opinion R+L=J may be true but it's a little bit weird that first of all, Lyanna was so angry and bitching about Robert's behavior and his bastard child but she didn't mind that Rhaegar had 2 kids and a wife? IT'S WEIRD AND STUPID! The second stupid example of theirs relationship may be that Rhaegar as he said needed 3 kids right? So... He choose Lyanna mainly because of that? So what if Elia could have one more kid? Then this relationship wouldn't exist? It's stuuupid..... And I don't think that Martin would do that (change Lyanna from warrior and independent girl to stupid and hypocrite and Rhaegar from noble and good prince to freak that want very badly 3 kids!) I read somewhere that Rhaegar wasn't with Elia when she was pregnant with her son, and didn't know that she couldn't have any more kids ( I know that Deny saw him with Elia and Aegon so it's rather unbelievable but maybe he really didn't know about her state (that she can't have any more kids)? but later after he meet Lyanna he didn't care? I know, I know.... but I really hope that he isn't I-need-more-kids-freak)

Btw Sorry for my grammar mistakes but I am not from England nor USA :P)

Welcome to the forum and merry x-mas!!!

Don´t mind about the mistakes many people in this forum aren´t english native speakers (like myself).

I am not sure if I´ve understood all your questions (try to formulate and structur them better the next time that makes it easier for others to understand it), but I try to answer them as good as I can (btw there are people in this forum who know much more about R+L=J than I do).

Elia and Rhaegar:

Yes, Elia couldn´t get another baby. After the birth of Aegon the maesters said that she couldn´t get another child. . Elia always had a delicate health. http://awoiaf.wester...hp/Elia_Martell

Elia and Rhaegar were married that´s right, but it was a political marriage not a marriage out of love. Baristan told Dany that Rhaegar was fond of Elia. He was fond of her, but he didn´t love her.

Rhaegar needed a third head and Elia knew that. Do you remember the things Dany saw in the House of the Undying? One of the things she saw was Rhaegar with Elia and Aegon he told her that "there must be one more" the dragon must have 3 heads.

Elia knew that her husband needed another child and she knew that she couln´t give it to him.

The problem is that we know only few things about Elia, but there are some speculations about her role in R+L=J.

Some of us believe that was ok with Rhaegar having another woman (after all their marriage was a political one and she was Dornish they have very liberal views to relationships and it´s a common thing in Dorne that Lords or Ladies have a paramour).

We don´t know her feelings about Rhaegar, but maybe she was fond of him too, but she didn´t love him.

There are some people who believe that she had a lover and other men besides Rhaegar.

Maybe they had some sort of agreement that they would provide a heir to the throne, but that both of them could have other lovers (it would not have been unlikely for people who have a political marriage to behave like that).

Rhaegar and Lyanna:

Well all we only know them by the the report from other people and they may have a false or partly false view of them

It seems likely that Rhaegar really loved Lyanna. Dany had another vision in the HotU that was: A dying prince with rubies flying from his chest, mutters a woman's name with his last breath.

GRRM has confirmed that this prince was Rhaegar, who died with Lyanna´s name on his lips (that indicates that he loved her).

There are some speculations about Rhaegar´s and Lyanna´s relationship:

Maybe he fell in love with her during the Tourney at Harrenhall.

Maybe he first used her to get a third head for the dragon, then got to no her better and fell in love with her.

There are many other possibilities, but we can only specaulate about their relationship.

Lyanna´s personality:

Why can´t Lyanna be both a warrior like Arya and a girl dreaming about true love like Sansa. The one does not eliminate the other. IMO Lyanna was a mix of Arya and Sansa. A fierce warrior, who cried when Rhaegar performed a sad song.

There has been a discussion whether Lyanne was a hypocrite: http://asoiaf.wester...-the-hypocrite/

Maybe Lyanna only wanted to marry a man she loved she didn´t love Robert, but she loved Rhaegar (I belive she did).

It was Rhaegar´s duty to provide a heir to the Iron Throne, but Robert was just lusty and unfaithful.

If you are looking for further infotmation about R+L=J here are some good sources:

http://towerofthehan...ws_parents.html

http://www.westeros...._Snows_parents/

http://awoiaf.wester...n_Snow/Theories

[Gi_Varotti]

When Edric Dayne is talking with Arya, he brings up Ashara. The head of horse at Winterfell is in the group and consoles Arya, and he was either the source of the rumor, or knows who the source is.

Cersei brings it up.

Thanks. I didn't remember them mentioning Ashara :)

BTW, I don't think Rhaegar kidnapped Lyanna I think they ran away. I see her as an older Arya and not the type that would allow anyone to kidnap her or do anything against her will. It's just me tho.

[Queen of Procrastination]

BTW, I don't think Rhaegar kidnapped Lyanna I think they ran away. I see her as an older Arya and not the type that would allow anyone to kidnap her or do anything against her will. It's just me tho.

Me too :)

[brashcandy]

Thanks. I didn't remember them mentioning Ashara :)

BTW, I don't think Rhaegar kidnapped Lyanna I think they ran away. I see her as an older Arya and not the type that would allow anyone to kidnap her or do anything against her will. It's just me tho.

That's kind of the definition of kidnapping though - it happens against one's will. I agree with you that she likely wasn't abducted, but I just find this statement and comparison to Arya (who was actually "kidnapped" a few times) to be slightly ridiculous :)

[Gi_Varotti]

That's kind of the definition of kidnapping though - it happens against one's will. I agree with you that she likely wasn't abducted, but I just find this statement and comparison to Arya (who was actually "kidnapped" a few times) to be slightly ridiculous :)

What I meant is that I don't think Lyanna would be taken easily against her will, if she went with Rhaegar it was because she wanted to do so. Sorry if I used the wrong word to mean that but English isn't my 1st language.

By comparing her to Arya I meant that I don't think she was a Sansa-mom- I-want-to-be-a-princess kind of girl. And Arya was kidnapped under different circunstances. Just how I see it tho :)

[MtnLion]

That's kind of the definition of kidnapping though - it happens against one's will. I agree with you that she likely wasn't abducted, but I just find this statement and comparison to Arya (who was actually "kidnapped" a few times) to be slightly ridiculous :)

Arya was indeed kidnapped at several points, but it seems that she always plotted her escape, even though she is significantly younger than Lyanna was when she is supposed to be kidnapped. We know that Lyanna could make good use of a sword, just as Arya has been trained. When Arya is a little wiser and older, I doubt that anyone will be able to hold her against her will.

[RuthieDontFretNow]

I'm not sure if this is the place to ask, but I'm not having any luck with the search function.

Does anyone recall any discussions regarding Hellebore (also know as winter or christmas roses) and its use in witch craft legends. I'd like to see what other might think it means for Jon, if anything at all.

Edit: opps, I meant to post this in the small questions thread, but I suppose it works here as well

[MtnLion]

I'm not sure if this is the place to ask, but I'm not having any luck with the search function.

Does anyone recall any discussions regarding Hellebore (also know as winter or christmas roses) and its use in witch craft legends. I'd like to see what other might think it means for Jon, if anything at all.

Edit: opps, I meant to post this in the small questions thread, but I suppose it works here as well

Hellebore does not have thorns, and Ned describes the Crown of Love and Beauty as having thorns. Roses and indeed most flowers that rely on insect pollination would not be a light blue as GRRM describes the winter roses, because it would not contrast with sky color. It is interesting that Hellebore is called the christmas rose, though.

[Sapphire]

What I meant is that I don't think Lyanna would be taken easily against her will, if she went with Rhaegar it was because she wanted to do so.

Lyanna would put up a fight for sure, but anyone can be overpowered or outnumbered. Jon is a competent swordsman and gets taken captive by wildings. Likewise Mance was strong enough to beat out several people for title of King Beyond the Wall but becomes prisoner to Stannis. We now know two Kingsguard were involved in her disappearance along with Rhaegar. That's quite an alarming story to hear for those not acquainted with the couple. That said, I think Lyanna was a willing participant.

What I find strange is there's no stories of Rhaegar and Lyanna traveling unknown number of miles south .

[Captain]

I can't imagine that someone purposely started the Dayne rumor "just in case." Some thought it was Wylla and others the fisherman's daughter. Besides, it's obvious there was *something* between Ned and Ashara to not need a rumor at all. When Cat brought up Ashara, Ned doesn't just staunchly deny it, he flips out.

There was definitely something between Ned & Ashara, but she isn't Jon Snow's mother. Ned is too honorable. Everything with him was always about honor. Eddard is the white knight in the series. He never strayed from what he believed to be his duty not once. Plus he says Jon is his "blood", and doesn't think of him in the same sentence as his other children.

I think the Ashara thing is part of an intricate backstory to protect Jon's identity. She might well know who Jon's parents are. Perhaps Eddard & Ashara were in love before Eddard married Catelyn out of duty and he felt he could confide in her and trust her. Which is why she allowed Wylla to be Jon's wetnurse.