R+L=J v. 36

[Black Wolf Smith]

There was definitely something between Ned & Ashara, but she isn't Jon Snow's mother. Ned is too honorable. Everything with him was always about honor. Eddard is the white knight in the series. He never strayed from what he believed to be his duty not once. Plus he says Jon is his "blood", and doesn't think of him in the same sentence as his other children.

See, this is what I hate. GRRM has said that this isn't a story of black and white, it degrees of greys. Ned while a "beacon" of all that is good and just in Westeros, he wasn't perfect. Yet so many seem to think his shit, smelled like blue roses, and it didn't.

[Old-Growth]

Ned may not be perfect but he was more honorable than most. Enough for the conclusion drawn, at any rate. And degrees of grey allows for some to be a good deal less grey than others; and Ned is one of those a good deal less grey than others (e.g. Tywin). Dealing in generalities like this will not get you as far as you suppose.....

[The guy from the Vale]

See, this is what I hate. GRRM has said that this isn't a story of black and white, it degrees of greys. Ned while a "beacon" of all that is good and just in Westeros, he wasn't perfect. Yet so many seem to think his shit, smelled like blue roses, and it didn't.

But the interesting point here is that 'white', honorable Ned is committing high treason against the crown (as well as betraying his best friend). I find it really interesting that when Cersei and Ned meet in the godswood, the two people who have committed high treason against Robert directly meet, and the discuss both their treasons - even if only one of these treasons is something both know.

[LadyMary]

Ned may not be perfect but he was more honorable than most. Enough for the conclusion drawn, at any rate. And degrees of grey allows for some to be a good deal less grey than others; and Ned is one of those a good deal less grey than others (e.g. Tywin). Dealing in generalities like this will not get you as far as you suppose.....

Ned was human, capable of lies when it was important and even accepted blame for a crime he didn't commit (with his execution as the outcome) in order to save his daughters. His honor was important to a point, but less important the protecting those he loved.

I think it's possible that Ned and Ashara fell in love at Harrenhal, became lovers, conceived a child and that Ned intended to to marry her to make an honest woman of her. Due to circumstances beyond his control, it didn't work out that way and he ended up married to his brother's fiance in order to cement an alliance he needed. That would give him reason to want to keep Ashara's name out of the rumors of Jon's parentage, not because it wouldn't be a good way to deflect the real story (R+L=J) but because he already felt guilty about not keeping a promise he made Ashara, who lost a child (stillborn) as well as her brother who was killed by Ned. That could be enough to make someone commit suicide (or run away under an assumed name if Septa Lemore is Ashara). This, on top of lying to keep his promise to his sister to protect her secret-son-of-Rhaegar from Robert's wrath.

It is perfectly within character for an honorable man to be haunted by guilt for his dishonorable actions.

[MtnLion]

This, on top of lying to keep his promise to his sister to protect her secret-son-of-Rhaegar from Robert's wrath.

It is perfectly within character for an honorable man to be haunted by guilt for his dishonorable actions.

Why then would Ned only think of ONE time that he had given up his honor, while he waited in the Black Cells? That single time had to be in keeping Lyanna's promise, and Ned never thinks of Ashara.

[Captain]

Why then would Ned only think of ONE time that he had given up his honor, while he waited in the Black Cells? That single time had to be in keeping Lyanna's promise, and Ned never thinks of Ashara.

Knowing Ned how we do, I would say it's almost impossible that he had a sexual relationship with somebody who he did not marry.

"Jeyne Westerling is her mother's daughter," said Lord Twywin "and Robb Stark is his father's son".

You are correct in pointing out even in his cell Ned was reluctant to soil his honor even to save his daughters. Eddard Stark having a bastard? Highly unlikely. It's a wonder anybody even believed that story.

Plus, if E+A = J there would be no reason for Eddard to hide that from Robert, and to a lesser extent Catelyn. The ONLY thing that makes sense is that Eddard was sworn to secrecy by Lyanna, to tell nobody the truth about Jon's lineage, even his wife. We all know what Tywin did to Rhaegar's children. Eddard was no fool, if Robert knew the truth about Jon he would have ordered him killed, just like he initially wanted Daenerys dead in AGoT.

[SFDanny]

Ned was human, capable of lies when it was important and even accepted blame for a crime he didn't commit (with his execution as the outcome) in order to save his daughters. His honor was important to a point, but less important the protecting those he loved.

emphasis added

The most important point about Ned - and one that always gets left out because of the bluster, mostly from others, about his commitment to honor. When Maester Aemon talks to Jon about love and honor and about how love is the death of honor, he could be describing Ned. Ned chooses love over honor. Love over duty. Love over fealty to his king. Thank you, Lady Mary.

[LadyMary]

emphasis added

The most important point about Ned - and one that always gets left out because of the bluster, mostly from others, about his commitment to honor. When Maester Aemon talks to Jon about love and honor and about how love is the death of honor, he could be describing Ned. Ned chooses love over honor. Love over duty. Love over fealty to his king. Thank you, Lady Mary.

You're welcome SFDany. This ties into who Ned was as a character and why he besmirched his own honor for the greater good of his loved ones. I hadn't immediately connected Maester Aemon's warning to Jon with Ned, but of course, it makes perfect sense that love was the death of his honor - literally in his case. Also to Jon - whose love for Ygritte made his decision to betray her for the Watch all the more tragic when she dies in his arms; a death that haunts his dreams later. There is also the case of Rhaegar, who was known to be honorable until he absconded with Lyanna Stark.

MtnLion:

Why then would Ned only think of ONE time that he had given up his honor, while he waited in the Black Cells? That single time had to be in keeping Lyanna's promise, and Ned never thinks of Ashara.

Well, he doesn't. He feels guilty about "lies" he told, plural, the most important ones related to the promise he made his sister, but its not the only one. At one point he shuts down rumors about Ashara Dayne being associated with Jon. If that wasn't true, but there was a kernel of truth to the story of Ned and Ashara before his marriage to Catelyn, Ned may have felt shame for what happened and wanted to protect Ashara's name from being dragged through the rumor mill. As for him not thinking of Ashara in the black cells, at that point in the story, Ned is thinking of his wife and trueborn children, and Jon, and the implications of his situation at the time. Ashara was long dead and and had nothing to do with the situation Ned was dealing with at that time.

Captain:

"Jeyne Westerling is her mother's daughter," said Lord Twywin "and Robb Stark is his father's son".

I took this to mean that Jeyne was the daughter of a scheming, conniving bitch and Robb was the honorable son of a man who was thought (by Tywin and others) to put honor above his own self-interest. Robb chose to marry the woman he deflowered, and Ned chose to claim a bastard "son" and raise him among his trueborn children. If the honorable Robb could sleep with a woman who wasn't his wife, so could the honorable Ned. In any case, even if Ned isn't the "Stark" that fathered Ashara's stillborn daughter, Ned was known to take responsibility for his indiscretions ... which I think is what Tywin was getting at.

Anyway, not to get too far off track, I do think it's possible that Ned and Ashara were lovers and he fathered her stillborn daughter. However, that has no bearing on the parentage of Jon Snow, except that some people believe the rumors they heard about Ashara being the mother including Catelyn and Cersei.

[Rolacka]

Remembering a person, what they did, how they did things is one thing, thinking about them in reference to something is another. He can look at Jon and think Rhaegar's son, though more likely he thought Lyanna's, without remembering Rhaegar.

Sorry for not seeing it before, but thanks for answering MtnLion. Yeah, I think that is plausible and can work. I do still think it is a slightly odd phrase to put in though (if R+L=J).

And I think Ned and Ashara is a red herring. Not a controversial view, but I struggle to see Ned sleeping with somebody outside of marriage. As King Robert grumbled: 'You never were the boy you were.'

[Old-Growth]

emphasis added

The most important point about Ned - and one that always gets left out because of the bluster, mostly from others, about his commitment to honor. When Maester Aemon talks to Jon about love and honor and about how love is the death of honor, he could be describing Ned. Ned chooses love over honor. Love over duty. Love over fealty to his king. Thank you, Lady Mary.

Not quite so fast here, esp. about Jon if indeed, as we rightly suspect, Eddard promised Lyanna to protect her son by claiming him as his own natural-born child. That put Ned, morally speaking, in a conflict of duties as well as in a conflict between affection and duty. Once he had, hesitantly and reluctantly, made the promise to Lyanna, he was now honor-bound to keep that promise, and that his honor would make him keep it is exactly what Lyanna, who knew her brother well, was counting on when she persuaded him to give his assent to the commitment she asked of him. That is why "the fear went out of her"; she knew that she had done the best she could in desparate circumstances to secure the safety of her child.

Conflicts of duty can be difficult to resolve even for a Utilitarian who has a principle which in principle can always resolve such conflicts were it not so difficult to discern which way the greatest happiness lies in any serious moral decision (or matter of law or constitutional arrangement :)

For Ned, who has no such principle to settle priorities of duty, to let affection tip the scale between keeping his promise to his sister and fealty to his King is not a matter of love over honor so much as it is a matter of the honor in keeping his promise to Lyanna vs. the honor in fulfilling his duty to Robert. He was doing the best he to resolve the serious moral dilemma he was in. (Just to make matters more interesting, Ned is Robert's friend and must find a path with and between affection and honor in that regard as well.)

[Jon Icefyre]

After the events that took place at the TOJ with the three KGs, Ned's promise to Lyanna(she wouldn't get that worked up and fearful over being buried next to her family it had to be about Ned protecting her son), and the way Lyanna died is obviously from childbirth there's no other logical explanation of how she could have died a "natural death" in that specific situation. When you include Rhaegar's obsession with TPTWP prophecy and the fact that a child of Lyanna and Rhaegar would be the Ice and Fire as the child would have the blood of the dragon and the first men, I just don't see how R+L=J isn't true. With that being said I do think something went on with Ned and Ashara as she(Ashara) was most likely the one would told Ned where Rhaegar and Lyanna were hiding aka the TOJ, what the extent of their relationship was I do now know.

[MtnLion]

After the events that took place at the TOJ with the three KGs, Ned's promise to Lyanna(she wouldn't get that worked up and fearful over being buried next to her family it had to be about Ned protecting her son), and the way Lyanna died is obviously from childbirth there's no other logical explanation of how she could have died a "natural death" in that specific situation. When you include Rhaegar's obsession with TPTWP prophecy and the fact that a child of Lyanna and Rhaegar would be the Ice and Fire as the child would have the blood of the dragon and the first men, I just don't see how R+L=J isn't true. With that being said I do think something went on with Ned and Ashara as she(Ashara) was most likely the one would told Ned where Rhaegar and Lyanna were hiding aka the TOJ, what the extent of their relationship was I do now know.

That seems to be a logical assumption. Ned is wondering where the missing three Kingsguard are, as well as where his sister is. He could put two and two together, since Arthur and Whent were with Rhaegar when they left with Lyanna. (divulged via the app) So, the most likely way to find his sister is to talk with Arthur, and the most likely way to find Arthur is through his sister, Lady Ashara. I think the question was asked and answered via raven, Starfall is very far from Storm's End.

After Ned leaves the tower he heads to Starfall to return Dawn to House Dayne, honorable. The most honorable house of the North, perhaps Westeros, has a new Lord, Eddard Stark. What better way for the soiled Lady Ashara to reclaim her honor than to marry into that House. She did not know that Eddard had agreed to marry Catelyn in exchange for House Tully's support during the war, and was going to be turned down. But, suppose that Aegon is truly Ashara's child, and Ned discloses his death while at Starfall, would she have motive for suicide? (That possibility actually sets aside the possible fathers of Ashara's child.)

A key bit of information about Ned, when he leaves King's Landing he very nearly went to war against Robert, right there. Only Jon Arryn had been able to avoid that conflict, and only after Lyanna is interred do Robert and Ned commiserate together, and repair their friendship. That made it easier for Ned to set his honor to the king aside to make his promise to his sister.

[Gi_Varotti]

Arya was indeed kidnapped at several points, but it seems that she always plotted her escape, even though she is significantly younger than Lyanna was when she is supposed to be kidnapped. We know that Lyanna could make good use of a sword, just as Arya has been trained. When Arya is a little wiser and older, I doubt that anyone will be able to hold her against her will.

Thanks! That's exactly what I meant :)

Lyanna would put up a fight for sure, but anyone can be overpowered or outnumbered. Jon is a competent swordsman and gets taken captive by wildings. Likewise Mance was strong enough to beat out several people for title of King Beyond the Wall but becomes prisoner to Stannis. We now know two Kingsguard were involved in her disappearance along with Rhaegar. That's quite an alarming story to hear for those not acquainted with the couple. That said, I think Lyanna was a willing participant.

What I find strange is there's no stories of Rhaegar and Lyanna traveling unknown number of miles south .

Yes! I don't know for sure if Rhaegar kidnapped Lyanna or if they ran away but I think he really loved her. It's a struggle for me to figure out how he managed to do that (or how they ran away) without causing a big alarm because, even if the KG helped him, it must have been a huge thing to pull of so quietly.

I wish we were told more about it in the books :(

Knowing Ned how we do, I would say it's almost impossible that he had a sexual relationship with somebody who he did not marry.

And I think Ned and Ashara is a red herring. Not a controversial view, but I struggle to see Ned sleeping with somebody outside of marriage. As King Robert grumbled: 'You never were the boy you were.'

Exactly. Ned was too honorable to do that, I just can't see him having a kid outside his marriage.

[Sali1530]

I don't post very often but lurk all the time. Also, i have not read through the massive amount of threads related to this theory so forgive me if this has already been forwarded as potential evidence/foreshadowing. I just finished a reread of GoT and in Jon's final chapter I read this and it struck me as relevent:

"For the rest of his life-however long that might be-he would be condemned to be an outsider, the silent man standing in the shadows who dares not speak his true name. Wherever he might go throughout the Seven Kingdoms, he would need to live a lie, lest every man’s hand be raised against him. But it made no matter, so long as he lived long enough to take his place by his brother’s side and help avenge his father."

These are Jon's thoughts and his father, as far as he knows, is Eddard. I wonder if the deliberate wording is a subtle clue by Martin?

[MtnLion]

I don't post very often but lurk all the time. Also, i have not read through the massive amount of threads related to this theory so forgive me if this has already been forwarded as potential evidence/foreshadowing. I just finished a reread of GoT and in Jon's final chapter I read this and it struck me as relevent:

"For the rest of his life-however long that might be-he would be condemned to be an outsider, the silent man standing in the shadows who dares not speak his true name. Wherever he might go throughout the Seven Kingdoms, he would need to live a lie, lest every man’s hand be raised against him. But it made no matter, so long as he lived long enough to take his place by his brother’s side and help avenge his father."

These are Jon's thoughts and his father, as far as he knows, is Eddard. I wonder if the deliberate wording is a subtle clue by Martin?

Certainly Eddard raised Jon as his son. To all outward appearances he made an effort to keep that image. He is seen by Bran praying before the weirwood in the god's wood, asking that they grow up as brothers. Jon and Robb, in the snippets that we get, do seem to grow up as brothers. Jon was closer to Bran and Arya than any of the other Stark children. Certainly Jon considers Robb his brother, though.

Jon Snow would have been known as a Night's Watch deserter. So, announcing his name would serve him his justice, he would not ever be able to do that and live. But, Jon definitely felt that Robb was doing the right thing by fighting against the throne. He wanted to add his sword to avenging his father's (as far as anyone besides Ned and Howland know) death at the hands of a false king.

[Booknerd2]

A few things:

I am starting to see the incredulity again on the threads that I had also, regarding Rhaegar taking Lyanna to Dorne, where Elia is from and her family is, basically the prudence and/or sensitivity of doing that.

Basically, the, "What the hell was he thinking?" head slap moment...

So I also happened to be checking out the app and the maps.

1. TOJ is closer to Starfall than Sunspear

2. TOJ is located in the Dornish Marshes

3. Best Buddy Arthur and Ashara are from Dorne (Starfall)

3. There are two passes into the area only I believe

4. The Marshes are mountainous.

5. Mountains (rugged geography) are natural defenses to invaders.

6. The app says that formidable castles were built to keep out or deter invaders, raiders prevalent in that area.

7. The app says that the TOJ was named by Rhaegar. No word on what it was called before. Smart to take Lyanna to a place that is unnamed, which makes me think it was uninhabited and nobody would think to go there. Perfect place to hide undetected with someone for awhile.

I know Arthur Dayne is loved and built up but I think he helped his buddy Rhaegar more than we know. I think he helped plan this with him. It is not so much that Rhaegar was a jerk for bringing Lyanna to Dorne since that is where Elia is from, it was more that it was safe because buddy Arthur was from there and knew the area, had pull there, whatever. To me, it makes him grayer and more human than he is described in the book.

I think Ashara told Ned where to find Lyanna and then feels guilty that Arthur died when Dawn is returned.

Still trying to think this through.

[Booknerd2]

Also, if Ned Stark had the TOJ pulled down, which he did...

It doesn't seem like it belonged to anyone specail. Most likely abandoned.

And how big could it be if it was able to be pulled down?

Another thing, could Ashara have had no choice in her mind but to kill herself or fake her death?

She is in Dorne. If the Martells find out she knew where Rhaegar and Lyanna were and what they were doing, she was in big trouble.

If Robert finds out that she knew his fiancee Lyanna was there for that amount of time without a peep, was Ashara and House Dayne in trouble with the hair trigger temper of Robert, the new king?

Did Ned also go to Starfall to talk to Ashara and maybe advise her to lie low or whatever. Is he keeping a bigger secret than Jon? Everyone thinks she died over Ned, Brandon, a stillborn girl but it was something else.

Too much to speculate on.

[Captain]

Also, if Ned Stark had the TOJ pulled down, which he did...

It doesn't seem like it belonged to anyone specail. Most likely abandoned.

And how big could it be if it was able to be pulled down?

Another thing, could Ashara have had no choice in her mind but to kill herself or fake her death?

She is in Dorne. If the Martells find out she knew where Rhaegar and Lyanna were and what they were doing, she was in big trouble.

If Robert finds out that she knew his fiancee Lyanna was there for that amount of time without a peep, was Ashara and House Dayne in trouble with the hair trigger temper of Robert, the new king?

Did Ned also go to Starfall to talk to Ashara and maybe advise her to lie low or whatever. Is he keeping a bigger secret than Jon? Everyone thinks she died over Ned, Brandon, a stillborn girl but it was something else.

Too much to speculate on.

I think Martell's might have been disappointed that Rhaegar had taken another wife, but I don't think it would have caused action by the Martell's. Rhaegar was heir to the throne, their grandchildren were still second and third in line to the throne. Plus Targaryen's were known to take multiple wives, so it shouldn't have come as a huge surprise had they found out.

Ashara Dayne's role is very mysterious, as is her "suicide". I'm of the belief that she is Septa Lemore. If she had been close to Elia it would make sense that she would want to help raise her child, especially given that her life was in ruin after Robert's Rebellion, her miscarriage, and the ToJ. Perhaps she was involved in Vary's plan to swap Aegon. Being recently pregnant she would have been a capable wetnurse.

[Ygrain]

I think Martell's might have been disappointed that Rhaegar had taken another wife, but I don't think it would have caused action by the Martell's. Rhaegar was heir to the throne, their grandchildren were still second and third in line to the throne. Plus Targaryen's were known to take multiple wives, so it shouldn't have come as a huge surprise had they found out.

Ashara Dayne's role is very mysterious, as is her "suicide". I'm of the belief that she is Septa Lemore. If she had been close to Elia it would make sense that she would want to help raise her child, especially given that her life was in ruin after Robert's Rebellion, her miscarriage, and the ToJ. Perhaps she was involved in Vary's plan to swap Aegon. Being recently pregnant she would have been a capable wetnurse.

We don't know when she became pregnant, though the way Barristan puts it sounds that it happened at Harrenhall, meaning "recently" was about a year ago. Plus, merely giving birth doesn't automatically qualify for nursing - you need to nurse, as well, to start and maintain lactation, and with Ashara's child stillborn, this is not happening.

[Captain]

We don't know when she became pregnant, though the way Barristan puts it sounds that it happened at Harrenhall, meaning "recently" was about a year ago. Plus, merely giving birth doesn't automatically qualify for nursing - you need to nurse, as well, to start and maintain lactation, and with Ashara's child stillborn, this is not happening.

I thought Barristan believed she committed suicide due to having a stillborn child? So she should have been capable of lactating! But we are getting too scientific here. haha.