R+L=J v. 36

[Robinvanpersie]

has anyone figured out that septa lamore is really lyanna, and ashara dayna is buried in the crypt below winterfell?

[Ygrain]

How do we know this?

Most, if not all, information about Ashara comes from Barristan’s memory and since he was in love with the woman I am hesitant to believe unquestionably all he says. His memory may be tainted by time and emotions and since he had no close relations with her or her family most of it must be hearsay or personal assumptions.

Iirc from the new app it’s stated that Ashara killed herself shortly after she delivered a stillborn daughter combined perhaps with the grief of losing her brother. Ashara was still alive when Eddard returned Dawn to Starfall, this means that Ashara had given birth shortly before or after his arrival so she must have conceived in 282. This proves that her pregnancy shouldn’t be attributed to her alleged dishonor at Harrenhal. These could be too separate events, which also means that if Eddard was indeed the father he was already married with Catelyn (personally I don’t believe it).

Can you provide a direct quote? THe wiki still says "killed herself shortly after the Rebellion"

And, what do you mean that Barristan had no close erlations with her family? Being Arthur Dayne's brother at arms doesn't count? The fact that Barristan wasn't privy to Rhaegar's secrets doesn't mean that he and Arthur didn't get along

has anyone figured out that septa lamore is really lyanna, and ashara dayna is buried in the crypt below winterfell?

And Ned remembering holding Lyanna's dead body is apparently a delusion.

[dragontamer]

Can you provide a direct quote? THe wiki still says "killed herself shortly after the Rebellion"

And, what do you mean that Barristan had no close erlations with her family? Being Arthur Dayne's brother at arms doesn't count? The fact that Barristan wasn't privy to Rhaegar's secrets doesn't mean that he and Arthur didn't get along

Unfortunately I don’t have the ipad with me at work but I will search for it as soon as I get home unless someone else can provide it sooner.

As to the latter I didn’t imply that Arthur didn’t get along with Barristan, but getting along and sharing your family’s secrets are two different things.

Also if I am correct and Ashara gave birth shortly after Eddard returned Dawn Barristan had no direct source of finding out the truth since Arthur was dead and he had been seriously wounded for some time.

[Gi_Varotti]

Does this theory matter?

Is there anyone (in the novels) who can prove his "true" heritage?

Will/ could he ever find out?

Howland Reed.

Ashara Dayne (if she's septa Lemore). < This one I'm not sure.

[Queen of Procrastination]

Howland Reed.

And Wylla (most likely). Bloodraven, too,

Maybe Benjen.

Bran will probably learn it through the weirwood network.

It is possible that theire are some unknown commoners or a maester who knwo it you, because Rhaegar needed someone to take care of the pregnangt Lyanna (Arhtur Dayne and the others were good fighters, but I doubt they could have assisted when she gave birth to Jon).

[Gi_Varotti]

And Wylla (most likely). Bloodraven, too,

Maybe Benjen.

Bran will probably learn it through the weirwood network.

It is possible that theire are some unknown commoners or a maester who knwo it you, because Rhaegar needed someone to take care of the pregnangt Lyanna (Arhtur Dayne and the others were good fighters, but I doubt they could have assisted when she gave birth to Jon).

Wylla, yes. I wasn't sure if she was dead or alive.

That's why I said Ashara, maybe she was the one looking after Lyanna.

I think we'll probably learn about it in a Bran's POV (or he'll see it through the hearttree or Bloodraven will tell him or even Meera).

[Lord Addam]

And Wylla (most likely). Bloodraven, too,

Maybe Benjen.

Bran will probably learn it through the weirwood network.

It is possible that theire are some unknown commoners or a maester who knwo it you, because Rhaegar needed someone to take care of the pregnangt Lyanna (Arhtur Dayne and the others were good fighters, but I doubt they could have assisted when she gave birth to Jon).

Yea, I forgot about Bran. Although him revealing to Jon would be kinda difficult.

I don't believe Ashara is Lemore for one second though.

[Gi_Varotti]

Yea, I forgot about Bran. Although him revealing to Jon would be kinda difficult.

I don't believe Ashara is Lemore for one second though.

Someone will need to prove that Aegon is Aegon, we have Connington (but what if he dies before doing so?) and Lemore (?), although the stretch marks aren't *that* big proof...

[MtnLion]

How do we know this?

Most, if not all, information about Ashara comes from Barristan’s memory and since he was in love with the woman I am hesitant to believe unquestionably all he says. His memory may be tainted by time and emotions and since he had no close relations with her or her family most of it must be hearsay or personal assumptions.

Iirc from the new app it’s stated that Ashara killed herself shortly after she delivered a stillborn daughter combined perhaps with the grief of losing her brother. Ashara was still alive when Eddard returned Dawn to Starfall, this means that Ashara had given birth shortly before or after his arrival so she must have conceived in 282. This proves that her pregnancy shouldn’t be attributed to her alleged dishonor at Harrenhal. These could be too separate events, which also means that if Eddard was indeed the father he was already married with Catelyn (personally I don’t believe it).

That story is exactly what Barristan thinks "shortly". Now, dropping back, Ashara was dishonored at the Tourney at Harrenhal according to Barristan. That means that he is counting back from delivery, or that he knows for certain who dishonored and when. So, Ashara became pregnant at the Tourney of Harrenhal. She delivered nine months later. We know that Elia was not pregnant at the Tourney at Harrenhal, as she is fresh from being bedridden from Rhaenys birth. Elia could have conceived at the Tourney, same as Ashara, it was the false spring. Or, she could have conceived later, but Ashara delivers before or at the same time as Elia.

That can only mean that Barristan thinking shortly could mean a year or two. It is not clear that Barristan knows why Ashara committed suicide, since he doesn't mention Arthur's death which immediately preceded Ned's visit with her when returning Dawn. I don't believe that this is enough for her to be that noticeably grief stricken, unless Aegon were really her baby and Ned told her of what he had seen at King's Landing.

[dragontamer]

@Ygrain Sorry for the delay. The quote is from Barristan’s bio, “But instead Ashara is rumored to have become Eddard Stark’s lover ; she kills herself shortly after her daughter dies stillborn”.

That story is exactly what Barristan thinks "shortly". Now, dropping back, Ashara was dishonored at the Tourney at Harrenhal according to Barristan. That means that he is counting back from delivery, or that he knows for certain who dishonored and when. So, Ashara became pregnant at the Tourney of Harrenhal. She delivered nine months later. We know that Elia was not pregnant at the Tourney at Harrenhal, as she is fresh from being bedridden from Rhaenys birth. Elia could have conceived at the Tourney, same as Ashara, it was the false spring. Or, she could have conceived later, but Ashara delivers before or at the same time as Elia.

That can only mean that Barristan thinking shortly could mean a year or two. It is not clear that Barristan knows why Ashara committed suicide, since he doesn't mention Arthur's death which immediately preceded Ned's visit with her when returning Dawn. I don't believe that this is enough for her to be that noticeably grief stricken, unless Aegon were really her baby and Ned told her of what he had seen at King's Landing.

It’s your decision whether you choose or not to question the credibility of the app. But in the quote provided above it is stated plainly that Ashara killed herself shortly after the birth of her daughter and since we know that she died in 283 that’s the year she gave birth too. The app is clear about it. While it's says "rumored" about the relationship with Eddard, it's positive about the time of her death. In conclusion she conceived in middle 282. Harrenhal was at least a year before. Again there is nothing connecting Ashara’s dishonor with the birth of her daughter.

Also from DWD, “……and his fair lady had thrown herself from a tower soon after, mad with grief for the child she had lost…”

I think it’s illogical to assume that “shortly after or soon after” means a year or two.

[MtnLion]

I think it’s illogical to assume that “shortly after or soon after” means a year or two.

Sorry, I have had a discussion on this with Elio, too. He seems to think that it is also because of the loss of her lover, even though Barristan thinks "possibly". All of what the app says is paraphrasing Barristan's thoughts, and it is from Barristan's thoughts that we get that Ashara was dishonored at Harrenhal, and that she gave birth to a stillborn daughter. Believe as you will, I believe that GRRM's intent is to let us know that Ashara gave birth 9 months after Harrenhal. He is being coy about the reason that Ashara jumped from the Palestone Sword, and who dishonored her at Harrenhal.

[Dr. Pepper]

has anyone figured out that septa lamore is really lyanna,

Yes, I figured this out months ago.

[Steve Stark]

I know this sounds weird and 'out there' but when Sam is in Oldtown and they mention that Lord Hightower hasn't left his tower in years makes me wonder if he put the pieces together... I believe his son or brother was the LC of the KG at the time of the rebellion?

This. I think if anyone tells Jon or figures this whole thing out, it will be Sam. He may not be a warrior, but he's got a great mind.

While this is true 15 years later, at the time of the war Ned was a 20 year old nobody second son. Outside of Winterfell and the Vale, his reputation was surely forged only later.

Exactly right.

I don't believe he loved her truly at all. But she was his 'property' and he idolised the thought of her (much more after she was stolen), not the truth of her.

His behaviour at Harrenhal is evidence of how much he truly cared for her. There is no note of him paying her the slightest attention. Instead he's drinking Ser Richard Lonmouth under the table and drunkenly threatening the KotLT after Aerys' proclaimation of "no firend of the king'.

I think this is great, as I believe that Robert's character is one of the most complex in the story, especially for how little we know about him. I think people tend to believe he is a simple man to figure out: He likes to drink, have sex, and to fight. I too don't think he truly loved Ned's sister either, but got caught up in the war and in the end he was corrupted by a multitude of issues. In the end he did not get what he wanted and focused his entire life on what he did not get, and resented his wife, Rhaegar and the kingdom for it. Part of him is a good man, as we can see from how Ned wishes he were the same man he knew from long ago, but alcoholism and misery corrupted him and made him a miserable man. But I think beyond all that misery that he is far from stupid, and there were things he knew that he simply chose to ignore. Sure he was a drunk hammer weilding warrior on the surface, but I think there was a lot of inner turmoil and brainpower working behind the scenes.

I believe in R+L=J....for the record.

[corbon]

There was definitely something between Ned & Ashara, but she isn't Jon Snow's mother.

There is nothing definite about it. There is precisely zero actual credible evidence for anything between Ned and Ashara.

The Harrenhal story doesn't actually have anything between them except Ned's shyness and a single dance, which his brother had to ask for. Nothing else at all. She danced with lots of people.

The 'rumours' that we hear from Ned Dayne, Cersei, and around WInterfell are all entirely explainable by Jon's appearance at Starfall and Ashara's supposed suicide. No actual relationshi between Ned and Ashara is necessary for exactly those rumours to start up. None of the sources of the rumours are first hand.

Ned 'frightening' Catelyn is actually all about Jon's origin's if you read it carefully. Ned never actually says Ashara's name and exhibits no care about Ashara at all, just shutting down gossip about Jons origins.

If Ned and Ashara ever had something deep or serious between them, it is past peculiar that Ned never once thinks of her despite all those other memories and regrets he shows us.

Note that I'm not ruling out the possibility, though Ned's lack of thought makes it a fairly remote one.

Just pointing out that there is actually zero solid evidence in the books of any such relationship.

[naik2902]

SONG = blood

of

ICE = Lyanna

&

FIRE = Rhaegar

[Arya Targaryen]

SONG = blood

of

ICE = Lyanna

&

FIRE = Rhaegar

I think: Song=harmony, peace

Crackpot: Song = Arya

[Queen of Procrastination]

Yes, I figured this out months ago.

:bowdown:

I don´t know if this has been mentioned before (actually the chance that it hasn´t is really small if you have 36 R+L=J threads). I am currently re-reading AGoT and I am paying close attention to all the stuff that hints R+L=J). So here is something that caught my attention during the re-read:

When Robert arrives at Winterferll in AGoT he wants to go to the crypts to the Lyanna´s tomb.(AGoT Ned I p. 49-50):

"She is down at the end with father and Brandon"

He led the way between the pillars and Robert followed wordlessly, shivering in the subterranean chill. It was always cold down here. Their footsteps rang off the stones and echoed in the vault overhead as they walked among the dead of House Stark. The Lords of Winterfell watched them pass Their likenesses were carved into the stones that sealed the tombs. In long rows they sat, blind eyes staring out into eternal darknass, while great stone direwolves curled round their foot. The shifting shadows made the stone figures seem to stir as the living passed by.

By ancient custom an iron longsword had been laid across the lap of each who had been Lord of Winterfell, to kepp the vengeful spirits in their crypts. The oldest had long ago rusted away to nothing, leaving only a few red stains where the metal had rested on stone. Ned wondered if that meant those ghost were free to roam the castle now. He hoped not. The first Lords of Winterfell had been men hard as the land they ruled. In the centuries before the Dragonlords came over the sea, they had sworn allegiance to man, styling themselves Kings in the North.

Ned stopped at last and lifted the oil latern. The crypt continued on into darkness ahead of them, but beyond this point the tombs were empty and unsealed; black holes waiting for their dead, waiting for him and his children. Ned did not like to think on that. "Here", he told his king.

So we learn that Lyanna´s tomb is located behind the tombs of the former Lords of Winterfell and the Kings in the North. It´s one of the last tombs (together with Brandon´s and Rickard´s) in which someone is burried. All the tombs which come after her tomb are empty.

This is another scene from AGoT where Jon tells Sam about his dreams:

From AGoT Jon IV p. 260-261):

"Sometimes I dream abou it," he said. "I am walking down this long epty hall. My voice echoes all around, but no one answers, so I walk faster, opening doors, shouting names. I don´t even knwo who I am looking for. Most nights it´s my father, but sometimes it´s Robb instead, or my little sister Arya, or my uncle." The thought of Benjen Stark sadded him; his uncle was still missing. The Old Bear had sent out rangers in search of him. Ser Jaremy Rykker had led two sweeps, and Quorin Halfhand had gone forth from the Shadow Tower, but they´d found nothing aside fro a few blazes in the trees that his uncle had left to mark his way. In the stony highlands to the northwest, the marks stopped abrubptly and all trace of Ben Stark vanished.

"Do you ever find anyone in your dreams?" Sam asked. Jon shook his head. "No one. The castle is always empty." He had never told anyone of the dream, and he did not understand why he was telling Sam now, yet somehow it felt good to talk of it. "Even the ravens are gone from the rookery, and the stables are full of bones. That always scares me. I start to run then, throwing open doors, climbing the tower three steps at a time, screaming for someone, for anyone. And then I find myself in front of the door to the crypts. It´s black inside, and I can see the steps spiraling down. Somehow I knwo I have to go down there, but I don´t want to. I´m afraid of what might be waiting for me. The old Kings of Winter are down there, sitting on their thrones with stone wolves at their feet and iron swords across their laps, but it´s not them I am afraid of . I scream that I´m not a Stark, that this isn´t my place, but it´s no good, I have to go anyway, so I start down, feeling the walls as I descend, with no torch to light the way. It gets darker and darker, until I want to scream." He stopped frowning embarassed. "That´s when I always wake.

Jon´s dreams lead him to the crypts, he passes the Kings of Winter and the Lords of Winterfell it gets darker and darker and then he wakes up. He always wakes up before he reaches Lyanna´s tomb, before he reaches the tomb of his mother (who´s identity he wants to find out).

The dream in general has some passages that could symbolise the search for his mother: Jon looks everywhere, but he finds nothing. He´s afraid of what he will find and in that parts of AGoT he was afraid that his mother were a whore. Jon needs to go the crypts to find out who she is (this could fit to the speculations that Jon will find something from Lyanna in the crypts. Their were some speculations about that in another L+R=J thread some people believe that Lyanna´s shield or a dragonegg is hidden down there). And he always wakes up before he comes to the end of the tombs before he comes to Lyanna, his mother.

I wonder if there will be a scene in TWoW or ADoS where Jon will dream his dream until the end and his search will lead him to Lyanna.

Note: I have the e-book bundle version of the books the numbers of the pages are maybe a bit different in the printed books.

[LadyMary]

There is nothing definite about it. There is precisely zero actual credible evidence for anything between Ned and Ashara.

The Harrenhal story doesn't actually have anything between them except Ned's shyness and a single dance, which his brother had to ask for. Nothing else at all. She danced with lots of people.

The 'rumours' that we hear from Ned Dayne, Cersei, and around WInterfell are all entirely explainable by Jon's appearance at Starfall and Ashara's supposed suicide. No actual relationshi between Ned and Ashara is necessary for exactly those rumours to start up. None of the sources of the rumours are first hand.

Ned 'frightening' Catelyn is actually all about Jon's origin's if you read it carefully. Ned never actually says Ashara's name and exhibits no care about Ashara at all, just shutting down gossip about Jons origins.

If Ned and Ashara ever had something deep or serious between them, it is past peculiar that Ned never once thinks of her despite all those other memories and regrets he shows us.

Note that I'm not ruling out the possibility, though Ned's lack of thought makes it a fairly remote one.

Just pointing out that there is actually zero solid evidence in the books of any such relationship.

There were rumors of "promises" made between Ned and Ashara at Harrenhal as recounted by... Harwin (I think) to Arya, in addition to the stories the Reeds tell Bran about the purple-eyed maid and the quiet wolf. Then there is Barristan's belief that Ashara's stillborn daughter was the result of a tryst with "Stark", and Edric Dayne's belief that Ned Stark broke his aunt Ashara's heart. The rumors of Ashara's suicide may relate to the combined effect of the loss of her lover - who married someone else; loss of her brother - killed by her lover, and loss of her child (stillborn) fathered by her lover.

I do think that is anecdotal evidence from numerous sources that there was something between Ned Stark and Ashara Dayne. The fact that Jon traveled North to Winterfell after Ned went to Starfall led some to believe rumors that Jon was Ashara's son by Ned and I think there was some common knowledge that Ned and Ashara had a romance going on.

[Lux in Tenebris]

SONG = blood

of

ICE = Lyanna

&

FIRE = Rhaegar

Song = story

of

Ice = Jon Snow

and

Fire = Daenerys

[corbon]

There were rumors of "promises" made between Ned and Ashara at Harrenhal as recounted by... Harwin (I think) to Arya, in addition to the stories the Reeds tell Bran about the purple-eyed maid and the quiet wolf. Then there is Barristan's belief that Ashara's stillborn daughter was the result of a tryst with "Stark", and Edric Dayne's belief that Ned Stark broke his aunt Ashara's heart. The rumors of Ashara's suicide may relate to the combined effect of the loss of her lover - who married someone else; loss of her brother - killed by her lover, and loss of her child (stillborn) fathered by her lover.

I do think that is anecdotal evidence from numerous sources that there was something between Ned Stark and Ashara Dayne. The fact that Jon traveled North to Winterfell after Ned went to Starfall led some to believe rumors that Jon was Ashara's son by Ned and I think there was some common knowledge that Ned and Ashara had a romance going on.

Everything except Meera's story and Barristan's thinking Ashara 'looked to' (not was necessarily dishonoured by) a Stark (not necessarily Ned) is second hand or further, told by people who weren't present and can easily be explained by facts other than a relationship.

Meera's story doesn't actually even imply that there was any relationship - in fact it implies there wasn't - Ned was just shy, and Brandon asked Ashara to dance with him. Thats all, nothing from Ashara, who danced otherwise with much more engaging and eligible men. Nothing to say that Ned was shy of Ashara in particular either, just generally shy. So how is it that the popular girl hanging out with the most eligible men suddenly turns out to be 'dishonoured' with the got-nothing-going-for-him (comparatively) teenager who was too shy to even ask her to dance? It just doesn't add up, going from Meera's story.

Barristan actually quite strongly implies that Ashara had a thing with not-Ned, probably Brandon (possibly Rhaegar, though I don't believe that, maybe someone else). Elsewhere he thinks that young girls always go for 'fire men' (quintessential Brandon) and not 'mud men' (quintessential Ned). Given his experience of young girls includes specifically Dany and Ashara, Ashara must have gone for a fire man. So definitely not Ned then! And his musing about why Ashara suicided are very very dubious - he wasn't around, almost certainly hadn't seen her for over a year, and is thinking about something that he was told happened around 20 years ago. And guessing, even in his own thoughts. So its not exactly reliable witness...

Edric Dayne wasn't even born at the time, so all he has to go on is what he has been told by his sister Allyria - who also was almost certainly not born or too young to actually remember anything herself (she's been engaged for 6 years or more to mid-20s Lord Berric Dondarrion, which implies she is very much younger than the late 20s she'd have to be to have any realistic first hand appreciation of the events as they).

Harwin is probably also repeating gossip from another source - his father is still active as Master of Horse, so lets say he's around 40yrs old max (father 60) At best he would be a young guard present at Harrenhal.. 20 years ago. More likely he was too young that the time. But even if he was a guard, his talk of promises fits best with Ashara 'looking to' Ned after being dishonoured by Brandon and Ned promising to do what he can, not a relationship.