Jaqen H'Ghar and the red god

[NoBoldVillain]

I don't think this is a spoiler, but if it is, sorry.

But in season 2 Jaqen keeps referring to the red god, is he referring to R'Hollor? And if he is, are they leaving the Faceless God out of things? Have I missed something?

[GallowsKnight]

I initially thought they were going to combine R'hollor and the Faceless god together to simplify the TV show. But if you re-read it's the "Red God" in the book too. I assume because Jaquen was going to burn to death that's why he owes the "Red God" who is just one of the many facets of the Faceless God. Had Arya pulled him from the ocean he'd likely owe the "Drowned God" the deaths.

[Old Man Aegon]

Jaquen claim to be from the city of Lorath. Perhaps "The red god" is the god they worship there. Doesnt have to be R'hllor.

[Brienne Of Bombay]

This what the July 2012 SSM says:

Jaqen refers to the Red God, and elsewhere to the god of fire. Is he referring to R'hllor? When we see Arya being educated by the Faceless Men, R'hllor doesn't seem to be particularly important to them.

(George thinks for a moment) Well, remember when Jaqen names him: he had very nearly burned to death recently..

Can't figure out how to insert a link using my phone..

[billy g.]

^ Hmmm. could be.

Let me add another question: In Dany's first chapter (aGoT), Illyrio refers 2 or 3 times to the Lord of Light. Could he also be a worshipper of R'hllor?

[Woel]

^ Hmmm. could be.

Let me add another question: In Dany's first chapter (aGoT), Illyrio refers 2 or 3 times to the Lord of Light. Could he also be a worshipper of R'hllor?

In the Free Cities, the faith of R'hllor, the Lord of Light, is the dominating religion. Compare to the Western world, were Christianity in its different forms is the dominating religion. Using for example the expression "may the Lord of Light bless you" (paraphrasing Illyrio) is equivalent to "may God bless you". I would say it is more and expression of Pentoshi culture than any indication of Illyrio being an outright worshipper of R'hllor.

About Jaqen: my interpretation is that the worshippers of the God of Many Faces believe that all gods either are or have aspects that they view as manifestations of their God, and consequently they view R'hllor as the aspect of their god that takes lives through fire. What is interesting, I think, is that Jaqen tells Arya that she 'owes' the red god three lives. This is an aspect of the GoMF that the people in the HoBaW do not seem to emphasize; they talk about him as a 'reliever', someone who frees men from the suffering of existence, not as a god who actively desires to take the lives of men. Might be an indication of the differences in ideology between the HoBaW and Jaqen.

[Jaqen Hghar]

About Jaqen: my interpretation is that the worshippers of the God of Many Faces believe that all gods either are or have aspects that they view as manifestations of their God, and consequently they view R'hllor as the aspect of their god that takes lives through fire. What is interesting, I think, is that Jaqen tells Arya that she 'owes' the red god three lives. This is an aspect of the GoMF that the people in the HoBaW do not seem to emphasize; they talk about him as a 'reliever', someone who frees men from the suffering of existence, not as a god who actively desires to take the lives of men. Might be an indication of the differences in ideology between the HoBaW and Jaqen.

One thing that mustn't be forgotten when discussing this subject is that Jaqen H'ghar of Lorath is an assumed identity used by a FM whose identity has so far not been disclosed - neither in the show nor in the books. This means that what is said or done by this character may just as well be a part of the assumed identity as common practise in the House of Black and White.

Hence, it is as much a mistake by Arya asking for Jaqen H'ghar in the HoBaW as it is using the name on this forum when discussing theories about what may or may not have taken place in Oldtown later on in the story. I.e. there isn't - and has possibly never been - a living person named Jaqen H'ghar in the story, only a nameless Faceless Man who for a time used this as his assumed identity.

[IHeartArya]

I think it is simply that three lives were saved from a death by fire so it is R'hllor, the Fire God, to which the debt is owed.

[Woel]

One thing that mustn't be forgotten when discussing this subject is that Jaqen H'ghar of Lorath is an assumed identity used by a FM whose identity has so far not been disclosed - neither in the show nor in the books. This means that what is said or done by this character may just as well be a part of the assumed identity as common practise in the House of Black and White.

Hence, it is as much a mistake by Arya asking for Jaqen H'ghar in the HoBaW as it is using the name on this forum when discussing theories about what may or may not have taken place in Oldtown later on in the story. I.e. there isn't - and has possibly never been - a living person named Jaqen H'ghar in the story, only a nameless Faceless Man who for a time used this as his assumed identity.

Well, you can't really discuss someone you know nothing about. For the purpose of discussion, I assumed that what Jaqen said about the Red God has at least some connection to his own beliefs. And why can we not refer to him as Jaqen? I think everyone who has read the books attentively understands that it is an assumed identity, but it's a lot more convenient and understandable than "nameless Faceless man".

[Jaqen Hghar]

Well, you can't really discuss someone you know nothing about. For the purpose of discussion, I assumed that what Jaqen said about the Red God has at least some connection to his own beliefs. And why can we not refer to him as Jaqen? I think everyone who has read the books attentively understands that it is an assumed identity, but it's a lot more convenient and understandable than "nameless Faceless man".

Considering my own forum alias I definitely hear what you say. However, I just wanted to remind everyone that Jaqen H'ghar is after all the assumed identity of a FM and not an actual person. To me at least, this largely explains why it's futile for Arya to ask about him using this name. (And of course it's also possible that the FM don't discuss other members of the order thay they may or may not have met while "on the field").

And furthermore, I think it's interesting to examine the contents of the story a bit more "to the depth", and then what you get is what I wrote earlier - there is no Jaqen :cool4:

With regards to the actual case of owing the Red God three lives however, I think it's perfectly plausible to assume that since Jaqen, Rorge and Biter were saved by Arya from a death by fire, it is the Red God that she owes. On the other hand, then you might also argue that these three should also die by fire, which they obviously don't do.

And on a completely different level - could the Red God somehow be related to Death By Insanely Overpowered Fireballs??? :lmao:

[WiDMNDBAMMD]

Jaqen is says that "only death can pay for life"

"The red god takes what is his" [Jaqen and the two others belonged to the flames their deaths were certain if Arya didn't intervene]

"By the seven new gods and the old gods(R'hollor, Great Sheppard, Drowned God....etc) beyond counting I swear it"

"This is no joking thing, gods are not mocked, un name me...... please."

[boojam]

I initially thought they were going to combine R'hollor and the Faceless god together to simplify the TV show. But if you re-read it's the "Red God" in the book too. I assume because Jaquen was going to burn to death that's why he owes the "Red God" who is just one of the many facets of the Faceless God. Had Arya pulled him from the ocean he'd likely owe the "Drowned God" the deaths.

This has always been my thought too.

But also George does not get to the FM's Many Faced God for quite some pages in the books and I think that when Arya got to the House of Black and White George elaborated about the Faceless God and maybe he did or maybe he did not recognize that Jaquen should have been speaking about the Faceless God , by then it was too late to ever go back and change the dialog in CoK.

We don't hear of the FM picking a particular god to serve when they are on a mission, Arya and the insurance agent, for instance, at least not that I remember.

[TomBadgerlock]

(in the show) When Jaqen asks Arya to come with him to Braavos he says that all her names, The Hound, Cersei etc are names that could be offered to the Red God.

I think the Many Faced God is probably the same as the god of Death that Syrio talked about, though? So not sure whether it's safe to assume that the Red God will be the official religion of Essos where the show is concerned.

[kevin1989]

People forget that they become a different person than they really are.

For example if somebody from the FM become a person from the north. his "identity" will be a northerner and therefore he "must" believe in the Old Gods. Even if he truly believes in a different god, his act is that he believes in the old gods. Same as for Jaqen. He's from Lorath, and they probably believe in the Lord of Light.

[TomBadgerlock]

Except in this instance, he actually mentioned being a Faceless Man and asked Arya to come with him to Braavos, but still mentioned the Red God.

[PixiuOfTheCanals]

FWIW, there's a special feature on the S2 bluray about the religions of Westeros, and as he's discussing R'hllor, George refers to him as the "red god".

[_Oberyn_]

For facless men there is only one god and all other gods are his diferent faces. So Jaqen he can belive in whatever god he wants. But there is no saying if the red god is what he belives in or just part of his current personality.

[boojam]

Except in this instance, he actually mentioned being a Faceless Man and asked Arya to come with him to Braavos, but still mentioned the Red God.

In the book I remember Jaqen's giving Arya the coin, but don't remember his dialog about her fulfilling her 'prayer' by becoming a FM.

It's interesting that it's not until episode 10 that Jaqen (it's Patrick O'Kane who says the words, does he now have a new name?) "Goodby Arya Stark". Showing that he knew who she was all along. Tho Jaqen kind of foreshadows it several times in season 2.

In the book that revelation comes earlier , in fact I think he speaks to her by her name twice before he leaves.

It's interesting they kept that because the implication in the book (and even the show) is that the FM are shadowing for some reason.

She does wind up at the House of Black and White.

[Ashes_In_Your_Mouth]

I find it interesting that Jaqen states that 3 deaths were stolen from the Red God and they must be replaced yet those 3 deaths were not associated with burning or fire at all. How is it that the 3 names Arya provides are still being sacrificed to R'hllor? Aren't they technically being sacrificed to the Stranger?

[DarkAndFullOfTurnips]

I find it interesting that Jaqen states that 3 deaths were stolen from the Red God and they must be replaced yet those 3 deaths were not associated with burning or fire at all. How is it that the 3 names Arya provides are still being sacrificed to R'hllor? Aren't they technically being sacrificed to the Stranger?

The Red God is just one face of the same, many faced God.