Theories you simply don't believe

[Dogpile]

I personally think (or maybe hope) that the reason the Blackfish didn't marry is because he believes in true love and just hasn't met the right woman yet.

I'm kinda doubting he's waiting to find true love. He's pretty old and that theme is from a different movie. Princess Buttercup doesn't live in Westeros. I also don't think the biggest badass warrior has "a singer's soul". Maybe he's impetent, That would make a guy angry, and mean.

[Twinslayer]

(Snip)

Of course if Jon is legitimate, We swore a vow (to obey) doesn't run into the same issues. To put it another way, WSaV+ToJ=JiL. ;)

Of course, it is very possible that you are right and I am wrong about this. On a related note, I like the quote from Jaime you have under your posts, about conflicting vows. Whatever the kingsguard were up to, I do wonder if it was an easy/obvious decision or if they struggled with it. If they struggled, did they vote? Or did Hightower just say "this is what we are doing" and that was the end of it.

[Legitimate Businessman]

Davos has something in his coin purse, other than his fingers

[J. Stargaryen]

Of course, it is very possible that you are right and I am wrong about this. On a related note, I like the quote from Jaime you have under your posts, about conflicting vows. Whatever the kingsguard were up to, I do wonder if it was an easy/obvious decision or if they struggled with it. If they struggled, did they vote? Or did Hightower just say "this is what we are doing" and that was the end of it.

It's a wonderful piece of writing by GRRM, and Nikolaj Coster-Waldau really nailed it in the show. And, yes, I think it could be relevant to this discussion.

The KG is not a democracy, so I think we can rule out the idea of a vote. I'm sure it was Hightower's call, if there was one to be made. I suppose it was an easy decision to make if Jon is legitimate. If not, then they were in a tough spot as either decision (stay with L&J/go to Viserys) would necessitate abandoning one of their duties.

On a related note, it's my opinion that Rhaella would have ordered the KG to Dragonstone to protect the king, instead of a dying girl, if she had the opportunity. What do you think?

[Selyse's Moustache Rides]

dafuq is Jojen paste?

[Lady Tippy Wolfsbane]

I guess what bothers me the most is the misconception that if you believe the Kingsguard at the ToJ were referencing their vow to protect the king, you automatically don't believe that the Kingsguard is also sworn to protect the royal family and take orders pertaining to other things.

I believe that the Kingsguard present at the ToJ were referencing their vow to protect the king. I also believe that they are bound to protect the royal family and take orders from the king and royal family; but only when that does not conflict with their obligation to the king, as evidenced by the text. I also believe that the members of Aerys' Kingsguard were faithful to him, as evidenced by them.

"After, Gerold Hightower himself took me aside, and said to me, 'You swore a vow to guard the king, not to judge him." - from 'Jamie'.

"You're hurting me," they had heard Rhaella cry through the oaken door. "You're hurting me." In some queer way that had been worst than Lord Chelsted's screaming. "We are sworn to protect her as well," Jaime had finally been driven to say. "We are," Darry allowed, "but not from him." -from 'Jaime'.

It's odd to me that it has been said the the Kingsguard at the ToJ would have never left Lyanna if they had been ordered to stay there by Rhaegar, due to their vow to also protect the royal family and their chivalrous nature. They weren't very chivalrous when Rickard and Brandon were murdered, and they didn't choose the royal family when Aerys was abusing Rhaella--considering that in both instances they stood by and did nothing, regardless of their personal feelings. Why? Because they swore a vow to the king above all others.

It's also odd to me that the Kingsguard at the ToJ would be so serious in "protecting" Lyanna from her brother, that they would rather fight to the death than release a dying Lyanna to her own brother that meant her no harm. If they only took an order from Rhaegar to protect Lyanna, why would she need protection from Ned? Especially if the baby had been removed from the tower?

ETA: I have been drinking, but I think this makes sense.

[ManceRayder]

I don't believe that:

any of the Lannisters are Aerys' child

Jojenpaste

Jon survives (I think it is possible-to-likely that he does not remain dead though)

The hound or Rhaegar is alive on the Quiet Isle

Lemore=Ashara

Tysha=sailor's wife

Aegon or Varys is a Blackfyre.

I think it's possible that Aegon is fake, but I think we know far too little to be even moderately confident.

And I don't think that Bloodraven of Bran is the Great Other. I may be wrong though, and if I am, then I am rooting for the Great Other.

[STANN1SBARATHEON]

i really don't think the "hooded man" in winterfell is anyone special, i've re-read that chapter a hundred times and i still can't make any connection between him and anything in the books that might reveal his identity,

but maybe someone on the forums has a conclusive piece of evidence that they can quote for me that will convince me he's someone i should worry about in the future....?

[rmholt]

This one has for all reasonable purposes been debunked now in the App IIRC, (and was fairly easy to argue against before,) but I don't believe, and never believed, that Melisandre and Stannis' leech ritual had any effect on the deaths of Joffrey, Robb or Balon.

ETA: The theory specifically being that the ritual somehow guided the hands of those involved or influenced the luck of the plotters; both of those arguments were proposed.

.

I was just reading this. I dont think the ritual did the job either. Mel engineered the deaths somehow or foresaw them and the leeches were to persuade Stannis that the Kingsblood theory was true

[rmholt]

i really don't think the "hooded man" in winterfell is anyone special, i've re-read that chapter a hundred times and i still can't make any connection between him and anything in the books that might reveal his identity,

but maybe someone on the forums has a conclusive piece of evidence that they can quote for me that will convince me he's someone i should worry about in the future....?

My most recent ideas:

Some random Northman who came upon him unexpectedly (reach for the dagger)

The Stranger - decided Ramsey's punishments were good enough for now and changed his mind about killing Theon

Benjen!

But if you look there are hooded men everywhere. Not too many with significant speaking roles.

[rmholt]

It's a wonderful piece of writing by GRRM, and Nikolaj Coster-Waldau really nailed it in the show. And, yes, I think it could be relevant to this discussion.

The KG is not a democracy, so I think we can rule out the idea of a vote. I'm sure it was Hightower's call, if there was one to be made. I suppose it was an easy decision to make if Jon is legitimate. If not, then they were in a tough spot as either decision (stay with L&J/go to Viserys) would necessitate abandoning one of their duties.

On a related note, it's my opinion that Rhaella would have ordered the KG to Dragonstone to protect the king, instead of a dying girl, if she had the opportunity. What do you think?

I think that quote about vows was just before Jaime began to nurture the idea that he might stop being a moral wastrel and start developing an ethical core. Yes there are too many vows if you dont think about right and wrong.

[STANN1SBARATHEON]

i don't think aegon is real! cloth dragon swaying on a pole amidst a cheering crowd, people, come on...

[redriver]

My most recent ideas:

Some random Northman who came upon him unexpectedly (reach for the dagger)

The Stranger - decided Ramsey's punishments were good enough for now and changed his mind about killing Theon

Benjen!

But if you look there are hooded men everywhere. Not too many with significant speaking roles.

I can think of four.

The Hound bringing Arya to the twins disguised as a farmer

The alchemist meeting pate.

The Liddle meeting Bran.

The HM meeting Theon

[ab aeterno]

I was just reading this. I dont think the ritual did the job either. Mel engineered the deaths somehow or foresaw them and the leeches were to persuade Stannis that the Kingsblood theory was true

Exactly. She foresaw them in the fires and then pretended to be causing them. I don't have it myself, but I believe the app confirmed this.

[Lady Green]

Or because marriage might prevent him from being such a badass all the time.

Most likely answer

II don't believe we have seen the last of Tormund's member.

Tormund's member is Lightbringer. It is known.

I do not believe Melisandre is right. About anything.

This! I have a severe dislike for Melisandre

[ElizaMartell]

That Jaime and Cersei are secret Targs, This is the most bullshit theory I have heard here. As well as Tyrion being a Targ.

1. You don't inherit some kind of 'incest gene'.

2. It's fucking called a figure of speech.

Sorry this made me spit out my coffee due to laughter.

But yeah enough with the secret Targs.

[LadyMary]

Exactly what I was going to say, ladyofslytherin. Lyanna died of fever, according to Ned. The room that smelled of blood combined with this suggests something along the lines of puerperal fever. And given the smell of blood and so on as a woman lays dying in an empty tower, you kind of imagine that an infant might be bawling.

Is puerperal fever infectious in a way that would jeopardize a child in close contact with a person ill with it? I don't know. Probably not. But do the people taking care of Lyanna necessarily know this? She starts running a fever, the bleeding doesn't stop, someone thinks best not to risk the child.

It's just a speculation, in any case, based on what evidence we have. Nothing hinges on Jon being right there at the tower or not.

You're right that it doesn't matter if Jon is at the ToJ or not, but if we're just speculating, I think it would be cruel to remove a newborn from his dying mother if a wet nurse can be brought to feed and care for him. Puerperal fever is bacterial - like a staph or strep infection, not viral, and not contagious. If the infection was something else, like endometriosis, it wouldn't be contagious to the baby either. Plus, I think the presence of the Kings Guard was evidence that they meant to protect Rhaegar's child and lover/wife. Since we know the KG were informed about what happened on the Trident and in Kings Landing, and knew that Rhaegar's other children were slain, they would have more reason to want to keep Jon in a place where they could personally protect him.

[Queen of Procrastination]

I don´t believe:

Any other theory about Jon´s parents eccept R+L. Espacialy all these Stark incest theories.

Any other secret Targ theories eccept R+L=J

Benjen is Coldhands.

Syrio is alive.

Jojenpaste

Any of the KG at the TOJ survived.

Stannis will live at the end of the series (I like him, but I think he will die :( )

I have my doubts about Lemore=Ashara, but IMO the chance that Lemore is Ashara is really small.

[Ran]

Puerperal fever is bacterial - like a staph or strep infection, not viral, and not contagious. If the infection was something else, like endometriosis, it wouldn't be contagious to the baby either.

But would those who delivered the child and cared for him and Lyanna know for sure her illness wasn't infectious? It might be cruel to remove him, crueller still to have him sicken and die.

[LadyMary]

But would those who delivered the child and cared for him and Lyanna know for sure her illness wasn't infectious? It might be cruel to remove him, crueller still to have him sicken and die.

Because in the bad old days as many as 1 in 3 women died in childbirth and I'm sure they were well familiar with the causes and outcomes. If Jon needed to be kept in a different chamber within the tower, they could have done that without removing him completely from the site. At least Lyanna could see that was okay and well cared for.

If Jon had been taken to Starfall, wouldn't one of the 3 Kings Guard have gone along and stayed with him to protect him (Arthur Dayne perhaps)?