Theories you simply don't believe

[FooFighterDDS]

I am not arguing that Rhaegar's son was not at the Tower of Joy (though, in fact, I don't believe he was; he was at Starfall, I'm pretty sure, after his mother proved too ill, could not be moved, and there was fear that the boy would be infected with her illness), but merely that I don't believe any such thing is required to explain their presence. They had orders, they were following them as best they knew how.

Illness? I didn't realize dying during childbirth was contagious.

Post #46

Ran states that the child was moved due to Lyanna's illness after childbirth.

[Jon Wolfwalker]

I don't believe Arya will become a FM.

I don't believe Jon is dead.

I don't believe Dany will ever not get on my nerves.

I don't believe we have seen the last of Tormund's member.

[Frey family reunion]

Post #46

Ran states that the child was moved due to Lyanna's illness after childbirth.

Well, I'll just add post 46 as a theory I don't believe

[ladyofslytherin]

Illness? I didn't realize dying during childbirth was contagious.

Another snarky person. :cool4: I like you.

To add to this on a serious note, I think that if Lyanna didn't die of blood loss immediately after giving birth, it was puerperal fever that finished her off. This was a fairly common cause of childbirth-related death until doctors came to the shocking realization that washing their hands before treating patients might actually keep some of them alive. I'm not aware of the stats on how likely it was for the infection to be transmitted to the child as well as the mother, but it's usually caused by staph or strep bacteria which the mother is infected with by a delivering attendant that is using improperly sanitized instruments or bedding, or from their hands during an examination of the genital area during labor.

Granted, we know all this now. Back in the 1600s, childbed fever was so common in birthing hospitals that the average mortality rate was 1 in 4, with spikes that saw every patient in the wards dying of it. And yet it took two centuries before anybody in the medical community started getting a clue. So in the type of society in which ASoIaF is set, it wouldn't surprise me if whomever was attending Lyanna thought that her illness could be contagious to the baby. They wouldn't really know any better.

[Ran]

Exactly what I was going to say, ladyofslytherin. Lyanna died of fever, according to Ned. The room that smelled of blood combined with this suggests something along the lines of puerperal fever. And given the smell of blood and so on as a woman lays dying in an empty tower, you kind of imagine that an infant might be bawling.

Is puerperal fever infectious in a way that would jeopardize a child in close contact with a person ill with it? I don't know. Probably not. But do the people taking care of Lyanna necessarily know this? She starts running a fever, the bleeding doesn't stop, someone thinks best not to risk the child.

It's just a speculation, in any case, based on what evidence we have. Nothing hinges on Jon being right there at the tower or not.

[The Idiots Lantern]

That Mirri Das Mur's last speech to Daenerys (the "When the sun rises in the west and sets in the east" one) was an actual prophesy rather then just a spiteful way of saying "never ever." Not everything a witch says is magical.

[Nick Baratheon]

This is almost as sick as the Doran is a pedophile theory.

there is a "Doran is pedophil" theory??? :blink:

[The Idiots Lantern]

I also don't believe Rheagar was a polygamist. It just doesn't gel with his attitude in other matters and the "evidence" (the presence of the Kingsguard) is flimsy at best, since it would require the "protect the royals" part of the job to be more important then the "follow orders your prince gives you" part of the job. I just can't see a rule in the Kingsguard rulebook that says "do what I say until you have to do something else." That makes no sense.

[Ororo727 Jon Snow Fangirl]

I do not believe that Daenerys will go mad and that she heading down a path of evil, and, I do not believe that Jon Snow is dead and will be resurrected by the Red BWitch.

[The Idiots Lantern]

I do not believe Melisandre is right. About anything.

[Lion of Judah]

huh? I don't think I've seen this crackpot theory before ever, granted I'm pretty new. No way, no how that happened.

Oh yes, someone came up with that genius theory.

[georgiatargaryen]

I don't believe that any prophecies are "true." They become true when the people who hear them are influenced to act in a way that brings them about.

So how do you explain visions of the (admittedly assumed) future received by Dany in the House of the Undying actually coming true in Westeros? For example her vision of the Red Wedding? Even if she had been influenced by that I don't think she could have brought about Robb's eventual demise and direwolf head-sewing from all the way in Essos.

Also the mention of Cersei marrying the king, not the prince (Cersei did not personally influence the death of Rhaegar Targaryen), and the fact that the frog woman (I'm sorry I forget her name. Maggy?) knew how many bastards Robert would have, as well as the number of cersei and Jaime's children.

One more theory I don't believe: Sandor Clegane will return.

Whilst I personally believe that he is the gravedigger, I actually think I'd prefer it if his ending was left open to interpretation.

Edited for clarity.

[georgiatargaryen]

Somehow I double posted and I'm not sure how to delete: help?

(Delete this post that is, I just took all the writing out to replace it with this plea)

[Neddy's Girl]

I don't believe in Jojen paste.

I don't believe Aegon is fake.

I don't believe Ned is still alive because no POV sees him die (that would be dreadful).

I don't believe Coldhands is Benjen.

I don't think I believe it was Joff who sent a hired knife to kill Bran (but haven't done a full evaluation on this).

[Magic 8 Ball]

Exactly what I was going to say, ladyofslytherin. Lyanna died of fever, according to Ned. The room that smelled of blood combined with this suggests something along the lines of puerperal fever. And given the smell of blood and so on as a woman lays dying in an empty tower, you kind of imagine that an infant might be bawling.

Is puerperal fever infectious in a way that would jeopardize a child in close contact with a person ill with it? I don't know. Probably not. But do the people taking care of Lyanna necessarily know this? She starts running a fever, the bleeding doesn't stop, someone thinks best not to risk the child.

It's just a speculation, in any case, based on what evidence we have. Nothing hinges on Jon being right there at the tower or not.

It's transmissable to a person giving birth if the midwife/doctor doesn't wash thoroughly, it isn't a danger to people who aren't giving birth. It was discovered to be causing high maternal mortality at a time when medical students were dissecting cadavers, then moving on later in the day to deliver babies without adequately cleansing themselves.

[FooFighterDDS]

Exactly what I was going to say, ladyofslytherin. Lyanna died of fever, according to Ned. The room that smelled of blood combined with this suggests something along the lines of puerperal fever. And given the smell of blood and so on as a woman lays dying in an empty tower, you kind of imagine that an infant might be bawling.

Is puerperal fever infectious in a way that would jeopardize a child in close contact with a person ill with it? I don't know. Probably not. But do the people taking care of Lyanna necessarily know this? She starts running a fever, the bleeding doesn't stop, someone thinks best not to risk the child.

It's just a speculation, in any case, based on what evidence we have. Nothing hinges on Jon being right there at the tower or not.

Thanks Ran. I thought there was something I missed that led you to believe Jon was at Starfall.

[LuisDantas]

Oberyn poisoned Tywin.

Marwyn is not rotten to the core.

Stannis is not a major, power-hungry hypocrite.

The Harpy is the Green Grace.

Daenerys will return to Westeros with at least one dragon.

Tywin was a good ruler.

[Twinslayer]

<snip>

It's just a speculation, in any case, based on what evidence we have. Nothing hinges on Jon being right there at the tower or not.

Ran, there is a popular theory which, I believe, depends entirely on Jon being present at the tower of joy when Ned arrived, i.e. that the presence of the kingsguard at the tower proves that Rhaegar and Lyanna were married and that Jon Snow is not really a bastard.

I don't agree with this theory, but as I understand it, the theory holds that when the old king dies, any pre-existing orders die with him and the kingsguard have to report to the new king. The fact that Dayne, Whent and Hightower stayed at the tower of joy rather than reporting to Viserys means that there was someone in the tower of joy who came before Viserys in the Targ succession -- in other words, the new king must have been at the tower of joy (with Lyanna). Therefore Lyanna's child (Jon) must be the new king. Therefore Lyanna must have been married to Rhaegar, making Jon legitimate. But if you are right and Jon was at Starfall, then I don't see any remaining support for the theory that there was a marriage or that Jon is legitimate.

Anyway, to tie this post to the question the OP asked, I don't believe that Jon is secretly a trueborn prince. He may be Rhaegar's son but he's still a bastard.

[ValentineNaomi]

I'm probably going to be murdered for saying this, but I don't believe any theories about any hidden Targaryens and that they are going to marry Dany... there is enough incest as it is...

[J. Stargaryen]

I suspect Rhaegar married Lyanna and Jon is his legitimate son. That said, if Rhaegar didn't do this, and Jon is just his illegitimate child, I still feel that that's sufficient cause for the Kingsguard to stay around. I've always pointed out that the fact is that the three Kingsguard were not going to make a massive difference for Viserys and Queen Rhaella at that time, that they had high strong walls, and a fleet, and guards, and so on. Whether legitimate or not, Jon would be of the royal blood, and was far more exposed than Viserys would be at the same time. Out of duty to their vows (the vows that include obedience) and, frankly, respect for Rhaegar and just general chivalric honor, it just makes sense that they'd defend even a bastard boy who had no other defenders.

And then when Lyanna was clearly dying, I don't know, I'd like to think the likes of Ser Gerold Hightower and the Sword of the Morning wouldn't just shrug their shoulders and leave her to it, when Rhaegar asked that they protect her. Even if she wasn't Rhaegar's wife.

Aerys dispatched Kingsguard knights to serve and defend Rhaegar; we know this clearly from the fact that Whent ran errands for Rhaegar at Harrenhal, that Dayne was almost certainly his sworn shield, and that Whent and Dayne were missing from the war and were basically with Rhaegar. At that point, their vow to protect and obey extended to him, and to whoever else he said they extended to, whether it was his second wife and son, or his lover and his bastard, or just his lover. No "going rogue" needed here. Barristan's words are almost tailor-made to explaining why Martin explained that the question of why they fought was due to orders that Rhaegar gave them weeks before he died rather than just saying it was their vows.

It does come down to their vows at the end, and certainly those orders gained more force if they recognized Jon as Rhaegar's heir, but either way... "Orders."

You make many good points, no doubt. Still, I find it difficult to believe that GRRM would have one of the KG say We swore a vow, if Jon was a bastard and Viserys was king. Because, in that context, it means to obey. Now we know they swore other vows; namely, to protect the king. If I understand the KG vows correctly, protecting the king takes precedence over all the others. Equivalent to Star Trek's Prime Directive, I suppose. In that case, Ser Gerold pointing out that they swore a vow to obey comes off as awkward and clunky, IMO, because it practically calls for a response -- what about your vow to protect the king? -- which falls just shy of formally declaring the KG to be hypocrites. For this reason, if Jon is a bastard and Viserys is king, We swore a vow (to obey) should not be included in the passage. At least in my judgement. Of course if Jon is legitimate, We swore a vow (to obey) doesn't run into the same issues. To put it another way, WSaV+ToJ=JiL. ;)