Rereading Tyrion V (ASOS-ADWD)

[Lyanna Stark]

Lyanna Stark, Wonderful post but I particularly like the part about Tyrion owning responsibility for his actions. That is a huge internal paradigm shift for Tyrion. Off the top of my head the only time I recall him really owning responsibility was when Ghost knocked him down back in GoT.

Yes, it's a shift for him and he's not reacting well to having to carry the brunt of that guilt. He lashes out at Jaime, lies to him about Joffrey adds further truths and lies about Cersei to hurt Jaime further and then he tells Varys the only life worth less to him than his own is Varys', which is pretty harsh, considering Varys is trying to get him out.

And then we have his internal lament about Tysha, "my wife" when he's realising that he, himself, was party to destroying the only real love he ever got, for some rotten idea of pleasing his father, who never wanted him anyway. The crux seems to be that Tyrion both has to accept the blame for his involvement in the Tysha rape, but also finally accept that Tywin will never love him and never want him, regardless of what he does. While Tyrion may be breaking out of that Lannister prison we discussed, the price tag is certainly high. Behind the "sweet lies" is an ugly, harsh truth.

In this case, we also don't have him blaming his dwarfism or anything else. He has nothing left to blame anymore. :crying:

It's the difference between "I thought she loved me but she didn't, woe is me" and "She loved me for real but I violated her and crushed the love she had for me".

Another interesting facet here is Jaime. Is he trying to protect Tyrion, or himself, from what happened? Jaime is obviously ashamed and disturbed by what happened and clearly understood that the truth would hurt Tyrion something fierce. Interesting is also that Tyrion get's furious with Jaime, but what did Jaime do that he did not do himself? Both were in a way subject to the "harsh lesson" of how Tywin's rule was absolute, and although Jaime was a Kingsguard, he is still toeing the line for Tywin. Just like Tyrion, he accepts Tywin's directions and "truth" as the real one. Only later he found out the gift was poison and that Tyrion didn't "thank" him later at all. I've argued before that Jaime was not neutral to Tywin and that he in fact wasn't fond of him at all, and that Jaime and Tywin were the two Lannisters "furthest away" from each other, since Cersei wants to be Tywin and Tyrion emulates him, but Jaime seems to take a step away from Tywin on purpose, when he is able to. Not sure if a little extra addition on the Jaime/Tyrion/Tywin relationship is outside the scope of this thread though. :)

You mean like Maslow's hierarchy of needs? :laugh:

You know, looking more at that, Tyrion does really regress down to the basic level, more or less. He's stuck on the physiological level for qutie a while after the end of ASOS. It's not until the very end of ADWD we see him self actualising again.

[Blisscraft]

About Dante - I thought about this as a reference, too. Mostly because Tyrion is aided by a "wise man" like Dante is in L'Inferno. Dante is lead by the Roman poet Virgil who is a resident of L'inferno at the first concentric circle, or limbo, the place reserved for non Christians who were nonetheless "righteous" individuals. However, Martin seems to simply allude to this. Varys is certainly wise in the ways of the old Targaryan stronghold, and perhaps other matters, but lacks the diginity and respect afforded to Virgil. Virgil is sent to Dante by Beatrice, who later accompanies Dante to Il Paradiso. Here, Tyrion is sent Varys by Jaime, not a feminine presence, although certainly a beloved as Beatrice was to Dante.

There certainly is a parallel with regard to Dante's descending completely before further ascending to Il Pugatorio and ultimately to Il Paradiso. Tyrion must go all the way down to the fourth level before he returns upwards toward "salvation." It would be interesting to follow all of those remaining concentric circles downward, which for the most part are represented by the Seven Deadly Sins, as Tyrion journeys along. Certainly, it is arguable that present chapter shows the destructive power of lust, treachery and betrayal. Betrayal being that very special abode for traitors in the Ninth Circle. However, Tryrion must climb up two hundred thirty ladder rungs to fully see the extent of lust, treachery and betrayal as it applies to him. Then he climbs back down to escape his "sin" which is probably best described as Wrath. Maybe this irregular movement represents a more "modern" view of spiritual regeneration; one that moves less directly towards atonement and is more often than not, diverted.

[Lummel]

I like that. It does occur to me that Virgil like Varys is a representative of an old regime, in his case a pagan brought into a Christian context.

At the bottom of the Inferno is satan and at the top of paradise God, here the final point is Tywin on the toilet. Tywin has been god and devil to Tyrion. Forming his character and his values but giving him his demons too.

The four levels again, I think this chapter is the first mention of the mysterious fourth level. From AGOT we've know about the levels for the common criminals and the Black Cells. I have a sense of GRRM taking us to deeper levels of the plot. The fourth level is the targaryen level and Tyrion will be shot out on a targaryen trajectory.

[Blisscraft]

Let's hope poor Tyrion wears a crash helmet. :unsure:

[Uncat]

Ooohh that really tickles my fancy. That sentence when Varys says Tyrion doesn't want to see what's there was one of the first one I highlighted in that chapter. It's just too mysterious and you have to wonder "what is on the fourth level of the dungeons??" forever and ever. Since not even Qyburn goes down there, it's even more intriguing!

Also, as I understood it, the dragon skull with the burning embers and the mosaic are both *down* from the fourth level, meaning even below where Tyrion is and where Maegor tortured prisoners, there is a Targaryen themed "basement" of sorts. The fifth level?

Even though it's not 9 circles, it makes me think of "Dante's Inferno" somehow. Like a descent towards the lower levels, both with regards to history and relative "darkness".

And in the end it all comes down to dragons/Dragons, plotwise and for Tyrion, too. One might read it as a foreshadowing: A Dragon (the last embers, to spark a new fire) is waiting on the end of Tyrions way down. From there he takes a painfull ascent full of agony until he finally can overcome his father, his fathers legacy and the huge block the Tysha story imposed on his ability to think, act and love. In this chapter we see it happening on a litteral level, while in Dance we will see him still going down on a metaphorical level until his ascent beginns by the end of Dance.

And now, that I write it: Tyrion actually spots the dragon, when he is on his lowest, a jousting dwarf in the fighting pit at Meereene. There, from his pig's back he sees Dany, the last of the Dragons. This happens right before the turning point. In his last POV we see him signing as Lord of the Rock, starting the ascent to overcome his father.

[Danelle]

quote by Ragnorak, agree

And I think Silverin and Buddog are right in Tyrion never being free of Tywin the moment he murderd him, though I see this bondage coming to play in a different manner.

It may be more in the sense of Hegel as dialectics of thesis, antithesis and synthesis. Becoming Tywin is presented here as antithesis to the self of Tyrion that we have met during AGOT and Clash. But what might be the synthesis? Tyrion as Tywin's revenant, Tywin writ small? No, synthesis has tree aspects:

Negation: well, Tyrion "negates" Tywin by killing him. But he does not yet refuse, i.e. negate everything Tywin stands for

There the next step comes into play. There is the German word "aufheben" with it's three meanings in the sense of Hegel, I googled, in English it might be "to sublate". I do not know this word, so I better explain it.

"Aufheben" is not only to negate, it is as well to preserve. And here Tyrion's development might already be arrested. He might preserve Tywin as Tywin writ small, as turning into the story's dark antagonist who at best could end as dark antihero, being reduced to use evil means in order to achieve the final good. But those final actions will not outweigh the evilness he used on the way, he will be the good guy gone dark in the end. Anakin to Darth Vader, going out with a final action of doing the right thing. Possible.

But then there is the third, the final meaning of "aufheben", the meaning all those ideas of Hegel are aiming at:

"Aufheben" in the sense of lifting on a higher level. You obliterate what has been, at the same time preserving it by giving it a new quality. In Tyrion's case this might be acceptance. Acceptance of what evil things he has done, as part of his personality, not denying or excusing it, acceptance of what horror he as Lannister and Tywin's son (we'll see, for A+J=T fans) might be capable of doing and - Synthesis: acceptance as himself as person with the ability to overcome his past, with the potential for good and evil independent of where he comes from and acceptance that this is a choice he himself has to make, being no longer driven by circumstances but by moral pros and cons.

Yes, he will never be free of Tywin and he should not. He should, I hope so as fan, consciously win that fight.

Edit: I hope I have not been completely incoherent but dialectics is definitely beyond my English

My German are a bit rusty, but isn't aufheben the verb and aufhebung the noun? I think that aufhebung can be translated in engilsh as sublation.

Wasn't aufhebung a big part of Hegel's philosophy? If I recall correctly, freedom was a major theme in the myth of the Master and the Slave. I think that the exact title in German means Master and Bondage? In the myht, the Master receives recognition from the slave, but since he doesn't recognise the slave or anyone else, his search for recogniton is pointless. The slave, on the other hand, wants to be freed and recognised. The myth is an allegory for the struggle between two self consciousness.

They must engage in this struggle, for they must raise their certainty of being for themselves to truth, both in the case of the other and in their own case. And it is only through staking one’s life that freedom is won

In the end the slave has two choices: either accept his master and conform with a life and identity that is contrary to what the slave thinks of himself or rebel against the master and kill him. I don't know though, whether this particular dialectic is the best way to approach Tywin-Tyrion.

Danelle, I really like your connection to patricide in mythology as the son replacing the father. I'm still turning it over in the back of my head.

Other than Bael, the only patricide I can think of is Gregor where it is strongly implied but never confirmed. During the Hand's Tourney Ned recalls the gossip about Gregor and how his father was killed in a "hunting accident." In that case Gregor's father (grandfather?) saved Tywin's father which adds multiple layers to the patricide comparison especially with all the tie ins Gregor has to Tyrion's story (placed over Tyrion in the vanguard, protected from Dorne's justice while Tyrion was not, along with his role in havuing Oberyn champion Tyrion.)

Reading your post made me think of how this is another grey incident for Tyrion by being so very black and white at the same time. Most agree that Tywin was just an absolute bastard that had it coming and that it comes from Tyrion is a poetic justice amplified by the twist of Oberyn dying seemingly saving him from that revenge and Tywin's own Lannister extremism. It also is a very dark moment for Tyrion. His killing Tywin comes from a dark place inside and not from any benevolent sense of justice. He is still in shock and rage at the revelation when he kills Tywin. Buddug noting how her initial reaction was "victory" that later turned to the first step of a fall on reread is a great illustration of the emotional dichotomy of this incident.

Tywin Lannister's fall was work of his children. First Jaime denounced him, then Tyrion killed him and finally Cersei destroyed his legacy by burning the Tower of the Hand. I think that you are right in regards to justice and Tywin's death.

In regards to Tywin's replacement, Jaime refused to rule, Cersei tried but failed. I wonder, whether Cersei's failure indicates the changes in westerosi society brought from the war, or is it meant to suggest that Dany or Tyrion might be more suitable to rule.

Also, wasn't Tyrion a kislayer since the day he was born? Tywin and Cersei hold him responsible for Joanna's death.

[Blisscraft]

All of this dungeon discussion has me thinking about Dany's dragons in the dungeons under the Great Pyramid. Does anyone remember how far down her dragons were? :idea:

[Lykos]

Blisscraft, I think you´re onto something, even though the depth is probably not comparable, other details are.

Under three huge brick arches they went, then down a steep stone ramp into the depths, through the dungeons and torture chambers and past a pair of deep stone cisterns. Their footsteps echoed hollowly off the walls, the butcher’s cart rumbling behind them. The big man snatched a torch down from a wall sconce to lead the way. At last a pair of heavy iron doors rose before them, rusteaten and forbidding, closed with a length of chain whose every link was as thick around as a man’s arm. The size and thickness of those doors was enough to make Quentyn Martell question the wisdom of this course. Even worse, both doors were plainly dinted by something inside trying to get out.

Dance, The Dragontamer.

[Ragnorak]

All of this dungeon discussion has me thinking about Dany's dragons in the dungeons under the Great Pyramid. Does anyone remember how far down her dragons were? :idea:

The Wiki has a good summary.

The Pyramid has 33 levels. The armory is on the second level along with Reznak's chambers. The third level is where Barristan trains his knights. The "heart" is where Hizdahr lived at 16/17 levels in the center. The dungeon and the torture chambers are apparently in the vicinity of the Dragon Pit at the base.

There are some similar elements in Quentyn's journey. He descends passing through the dungeons and torture chambers to find Targaryen dragons-- though he sees more than just embers. His journey is also focused on a marriage, requires keys, and ends with the firing of a crossbow.

Beyond the stables, the ground level of the Great Pyramid became a labyrinth, but Quentyn Martell had been through here with the queen, and he remembered the way. Under three huge brick arches they went, then down a steep stone ramp into the depths, through the dungeons and torture chambers and past a pair of deep stone cisterns. Their footsteps echoed hollowly off the walls, the butcher’s cart rumbling behind them. The big man snatched a torch down from a wall sconce to lead the way.

At last a pair of heavy iron doors rose before them, rust-eaten and forbidding, closed with a length of chain whose every link was as thick around as a man’s arm. The size and thickness of those doors was enough to make Quentyn Martell question the wisdom of this course. Even worse, both doors were plainly dinted by something inside trying to get out. The thick iron was cracked and splitting in three places, and the upper corner of the left-hand door looked partly melted.

There's also Dany's thoughts on her dragons. Are Dany and Tyrion the only two who ever refer to themselves as monsters? They both kill someone who deceived and betrayed them to birth the "monstrous" nature.

Mother of dragons, Daenerys thought. Mother of monsters. What have I unleashed upon the world? A queen I am, but my throne is made of burned bones, and it rests on quicksand. Without dragons, how could she hope to hold Meereen, much less win back Westeros? I am the blood of the dragon, she thought. If they are monsters, so am I.

Still pondering Danelle's patricide. In reviewing Ned I noticed that one of the things that sets him apart and makes him so admirable is his willingness to do the hard things himself. He executes the deserter himself and explains why to Bran, he insists on telling Jon about joining the NW himself, he kills Lady himself, he challeges Robert to kill Dany himself, and he would have ridden after Gregor himself. These are are wholly admirable choices. Tyrion originally alludes to having Bronn kill Tywin but ends up doing it himself yet it is a far cry from the nobility of Ned's choices to get his own hands dirty. No point yet, but Tyrion's time as Hand is a natural contrast to Ned's and there seems to be something to discover in this.

ETA: Lykos, glad it isn't just me who saw the similarities.

[Blisscraft]

Thank you, Lykos and Ragnorak. I couldn't remember much about the Meereen dungeons and didn't have much time to look it up.

There is a theory floating around about Tyrion being a Targ. I'm not sure about all of that and to be truthful, I don't think it will matter in the long run. However, Ragnorak is correct about the "monster" in both Dany and Tyrion. They are the two main characters that wrestle with their respective character flaws to a certain extent. Other characters refer to Joffrey as "a monster", including Tyrion and Sansa. However, I don't recall Joffrey ever refering to himself in that light.

[starkalways]

Before you guys move onto Adwd I just wanted to mention a few things that really stuck out to me. (I'm not good at analyzing, but really enjoy all you guys have done and I think you'll be able to pull a few things from this.)

Back in AGOT, when tyrion gives the saddle design for bran, summer is the first direwolf to snarl at tyrion. I think this is important because we know the direwolves sense threats. But Grey wind isn't the first to approach tyrion even though robb is angry because he thinks the lannister have something to do with bran's fall.Summer is suppose to be the smartest of the direwolves so this situation always pop out at me as being strange. Is it because he senses that tyrion and cat will have a run in or is tyrion that much of a threat to the starks?

In ACOK bronn and varys are talking to tyrion about how tommen would be better as king, they say something along the lines as "wouldn't it be easier if the younger one was born first." But what they are saying is someone should kill joff. Tyrion instantly picks up on it and thinks no I can't. But when Tywin mentions him claiming winterfell through sansa, he never considers out right robb has to die for that to happen. I know, he knows robb would have to die. But it seems like he's willfully over looking that part and is like oh why won't Sansa love me. My point is that in tommen's case he instantly recognize it, but in Sansa's he is willfully blind.

When tyrion first meet symon silver tongue he thinks "a wise man would of acted like he didn't recognize me." I thought this was really interesting because he does this exact thing to Cat at the crossroads inn.

With the up coming battle, tyrion considers sending shae away, he says she reminds him of dancey, a whore in chataya's brothel, that was trying her best to get him to sleep with her to not lose a wager. If tyrion would realized this, shae going for her best option at the trial would have not been such a shocker.

At one point tyrion dreams of sending a faceless man to Cersei. Is this foreshadowing or just a dream? Arya is currently training and she's on arya's hit list.

[Harlaw's Book]

You bring up some really interesting points, starkalways.

Back in AGOT, when tyrion gives the saddle design for bran, summer is the first direwolf to snarl at tyrion. I think this is important because we know the direwolves sense threats. But Grey wind isn't the first to approach tyrion even though robb is angry because he thinks the lannister have something to do with bran's fall.Summer is suppose to be the smartest of the direwolves so this situation always pop out at me as being strange. Is it because he senses that tyrion and cat will have a run in or is tyrion that much of a threat to the starks? At one point tyrion dreams of sending a faceless man to Cersei. Is this foreshadowing or just a dream? Arya is currently training and she's on arya's hit list.

About the direwolves, I've been pondering for a while whether the whole "direwolves sense threats" is accurate or if something more nuanced is happening. Rereading the parts where they "sense threats" there are details that strike me as off.

There is another Tyrion-faceless men foreshadowing in this chapter when Jaime and Tyrion discuss Tyrion's exile. "Another name? Oh, certainly. And when the Faceless Men come to kill me, I'll say, 'No, you have the wrong man, I'm a different dwarf with a hideous facial scar." At first I thought Tyrion would encounter Arya. But it may also mean an encounter with "Pate" from the Citadel or a different faceless man.

Other things about this chapter:

United we stand, divided we fall. It seems to me that the factions doing well are those that are united. While there is hope that those currently divided can unite in the future, it's not going to happen for the Lannisters. Also I am reminded of Tywin splitting Ice into 2 swords. He meant it to be a symbol of Lannister greatness, but with Joff dying and Jaime (and possibly Tommen) giving the sword(s) away, the division (from Tywin's perspective) was a pointless action. Actually it brought more division because Jaime's giving it to Brienne with the purpose of finding Sansa puts him at odds with Cersei.

This is an open question everyone merely to satisfy my curiosity. Are you satisfied Tyrion delivered Tywin's comeuppance, or would a Stark or someone else be a more preferable choice?

[Uncat]

The idea of Tyrion sending a faceless man made this thought pop up.

From what the waif tells Arya, we are a little more familiar with the proce tag, the faceless men put on a death. The price is a (huge) percentage of your worldly possesions - almost everything you have. It is kind of a test if saying "I would give everything to see this man/woman dead" is just a figure of speach to to you or if you are litteraly ready to give up almost everything for one death. And here comes the thing: does Tyrion hate Cersei enough to pay this price? And what exactly would everything be? His inheritary right to the Rock?

Btw: By establishing the pricetag of the FM, GRRM also kind of puts a pricetag on revenge in the books: It will cost you about everything you have.

[Lummel]

I am about a week late with this and I apologise for holding us up. But here's the plan. Below is a bit of an overview of ASOS just to help to trigger off anything that you want to say about ASOS or Tyrion so far in ASOIAF, do not for the love of the Seven, R'hllor or the old gods uncounted feel restricted to what I have mentioned, just float loosely over the whole Tyrion story and mention what tickles your interest :). Then we draw a line under ASOS and Butterbumps! Will post a little something on AFFC. After that we will be finally moving on to ADWD which Butterbumps! is due to be starting off for us.

Tyrion ASOS overview

A quick recap of AGOT and ACOK can be found here.

So AGOT began with Tyrion riding away from his family but ended with him fully engaged in the family business. ACOK opened with the wounded Tyrion riding into King's Landing and closed with the triumphant Tywin riding into the throne room. ASOS opened and closed with a dramatic confrontation between father and son.

Tyrion raises the issue of who inherits Casterly Rock. Tywin in his fantasy still sees Jaime as his heir, a hope that is dashed by Jaime's refusal. Tywin gets to deny both his sons and AFFC begins with Cersei, the one Lannister least trained and experienced as a leader left in charge by default.

Some themes...

The politics of the Kingdom

The obvious one is the rise and fall of the House of Lannister. At the beginning of ASOS Lannister is ascendant, victorious in war, their man is king their power assured. By the end Tywin and Joffrey are dead, Tyrion fled and the future of House Lannister is uncertain in the podgy if friendly hands of Tommen Beat-hater.

Losing the Handship, in search of a role

If Tyrion enjoyed his time as vice-Hand of the King in ACOK, ASOS sees him demoted and in need of a role. Shoved in to the unwelcome position of Master of Coin he is left with the impossible task of paying for post-war reconstruction and Joffrey's wedding. By chance he has an additional role as Tywin's general Factotum due to the incapacity of Kevan but apparent all the way through is the feeling of a man knocked down from being the next best thing to the King to being the butt of jokes about the “dwarf's penny” and getting to play escort to Oberyn Martell.

Plotting and scheming

Although Tyrion has been knocked down from power and inheritance not everybody sees it that way. Oberyn Martell and possibly Varys too have their beedy eyes on Tyrion as a potential ally in the Game of Thrones although this is something that Tyrion either doesn't pick up on or turns a blind eye towards. All the while however the schemes of Lord Baelish and Grandma Tyrell are nearing completion.

Monster and man

ASOS opens with his sense of injury as a man but ends with his wishing himself to be the monster that he assumes others see him as being. His final act of parricide is a link to the sphinxes of ACOK and the Oedipus myth. His he killing the father to become him or transcend him? We wait to see.

We see in his relationships with Sansa and Shae something of both monster and man, both a desire to be loved and a sense of others as tools for his own needs. We are repeatedly returned to those earlier key moments, the death of his mother and the rape of Tysha. Blamed for the one and self-absolved for the other he is forced by Jaime's confession to realise his own wrong doing and the viciousness of Tywin's 'sharp lessons'.

Father and Son

We see a fair bit of self-delusion on the part of both which adds to the sense of them both being too similar to ever be at peace with one another. Tywin's procurement of Shae takes their rivalry blow the belt (just as Tyrion's crossbow bolt will too).

Ongoing mysteries

Who poisoned Tywin? Was he doomed to die in any case even without Tyrion's intervention? And just how good is singer's stew?

[Ragnorak]

Lummel, I like the juxtapositions you pointed out. I always thought Bran seeing the destruction of Winterfell at the end of Clash and Sansa rebuilding it in snow at the end of Storm was meaningful and intentional. It is interesting that Lannister fortunes rose under Tyrion's "rule" and fell under Tywin's. Tyrion won Dorne and Highgarden as allies while Tywin won the Freys and Boltons which offers a bit more compare and contrast material.

One of the most enlightening parts of this reread for me has been realizing how much Tyrion was played in Clash. On a first read he comes across as quite the clever player but knowing the full story he never really does any better than Ned. Ned had an honorable Robert as an end state, but Tyrion is working toward making Tywin Hand and Joffrey King. Neither of those end states is in Tyrion's interest though they are in the interests of House Lannister-- that the two can possibly conflict so radically says a great deal about Lannister family politics.

Seeing how much Varys and Littlefinger play him paints a picture of two real power brokers propping up House Lannister. On Varys part we know he wants continued instability for Aegon's eventual arrival. Varys also in all likelihood wants heirs for each major House willing to support Aegon. Within the Tyrion/Sansa marriage are the keys to Casterly Rock, the Riverlands and the North which is almost half the Seven Kingdoms. Since Tyrion hasn't consummated the marriage with Sansa that means they are both viable marriage candidates to solidify alliances once Aegon lands. He is still quite a valuable asset in The Game.

Despite being played Tyrion still proved he is quite a capable player. The Dorne alliance was brilliant even in its impossibility given the history with Tywin. It also kept Dorne from joining with Stannis after Renly's fall. The Highgarden alliance saved Kings Landing and may have saved Tywin who might otherwise have been caught between Roose and Robb. Varys knows how much credit belongs to Tyrion on this front. So I find myself wondering about Varys and his take on Tyrion during Storm.

Varys is largely absent from Tyrion's Storm POVs especially when compared to Clash. I think this abscence is a measure of his current usefulness to Varys but the Shae services are a sign of his continued potential. What does he think of Tyrion here and what are his plans?

“Pardon me if I do not weep for you.”

“I shall, but you must pardon me if I do not weep for Shae. I confess, I do not understand what there is in her to make a clever man like you act such a fool.”

“You might, if you were not a eunuch.”

“Is that the way of it? A man may have wits, or a bit of meat between his legs, but not both?” Varys tittered. “Perhaps I should be grateful I was cut, then.”

He certainly seems to admire Tyrion based on the "clever" remark. His Shae obsession and Sansa marriage misery makes him a candidate for a happier political marriage. He does say pardon me if I don't weep for "Shae" and not "you" which makes me wonder if he has notions of removing Shae in order to make better use of Tyrion. It also strikes me that he is disappointed by Tyrion's passivity and would prefer Tyrion to plot to improve his circumstances. I don't see any evidence to give us a more specific indication of Varys's greater plans for Tyrion if he has any.

I wonder about this in the greater scheme of his prison break. Jaime threatened Varys at knife point to get him to break Tyrion out. Did Varys know Jaime intended to break him out? I don't think Jaime talked about with anyone or wrote about it to anyone so there can be no little birds informing Varys of his plans. Is Jaime's protection of Tyrion predictable enough for Varys to have known? Maybe but I can see it both ways. Varys is quite adaptable. Was Tyrion really going to the Wall and Varys figured he'd either be "in waiting" or out of the picture based on future developments? My impression was that Tyrion was going to die despite Tywin's claims so either Varys wrote him off or knew Jaime intended something. Varys may well have Tyrek stashed as the Lannister in waiting so he might not be all that concerned with Tyrion. I'd like to believe Varys has some orchestrated clever plot but I don't see sufficient evidence for it. It seems more likely he is making the best use of Jaime's imposed circumstances.

[Lummel]

The parallels are there, but I fear the series is so big that it gets difficult to keep them in mind - again I find the POV structure chops up the reading experience so you need almost to reconstruct the story in your head to see the links!

Jaime's and Varys' interaction is a good question. Jaime seems definite that Varys would be able to get Tyrion out...which seems interesting given that Varys' alter ego as Rugen is meant to be a secret. Does Jaime know something or was that just a lucky guess? Presumably Varys would have been aware of the conversations that Tywin had with his sons?

[Winterfellian]

Great summary Lummel!

This is a little off topic but about Jaime's and Varys' interactions, it brings to my mind the infamous riddle from ACOK, mostly because of this quote

“Your life is mine. I do not care what secrets you know. If Tyrion dies, you will not long outlive him, I promise you.”

In the riddle is a man with a blade that holds the power of life and death in his hands just as Jaime holds Varys' life in his dagger. Through the story we have seen that if LF has armored himself in gold, then Varys armored himself with secrets. This armors seemed effective enough because in ACOK we see that Tyrion feels incapable of dismissing either of them even though he rightly mistrusts them. He was seduced by the secrets Varys possessed and LF's ability to come up with gold out of thin air and of course the use he, Tyrion, could make of both of them, just as others like Robert Baratheon and even Tywin Lannister. But when Jaime came to Varys with that dagger all of Varys' secrets weren't worth anything just as LF gold wouldn't have made a difference in the same circumstance. Their armors in this scenario would have been indeed nothing more than a shadow on the wall when facing a sword or a dagger.

I always found interesting that in Varys' riddle is a sellsword that holds the blade but in this real world scenario the sellsword becomes a Kingsguard with shit for honor. More to the point Jaime isn't moved by some divine inspiration, out of accordance with the demands of a king or because of gold. To the contrary, by releasing Tyrion he's acting against the gods (releasing a person whom the Gods themselves found guilty when he loose his trial by combat), the King (Tyrion is a kingslayer in the eyes of the realm) and even against any gold interests since his actions contradicts with the plans of the wealthiest man in the 7 kingdoms.

Jaime's motivations and actions are not brought on by external factors like the ones presented in the riddle but by internal ones-the combined feelings of love, shame, regret and guilt Jaime feels towards his brother.

This all makes me thing that Varys' approach to power as transmitted by this riddle might not be as universal and clever as he thinks it is.

[Woman of War]

Great post, Winterfellian.

Let me draw a parallel of ironic tragedy to real life events in the recent past, even more off topic, sorry.

In the former GDR, Eastern Germany before the fall of the Wall (sic) there was the secret service, Stasi, brutal, ruthless, but far more clever than most secret services. Their main tool was not mindless torture but involving their target objects by making them part of their system, part of the guilt. These Stasi people knew everything about their victims, the most intimate secrets, sexual orientation, their hidden wishes, their dreams and ambitions. And so they could play a hideous game with them: not only bribing people with those secrets to spy for them, they as well played the good guys, not simply offering money (of limited worth in the former GDR), they offered life perspectives, career, access to good schools, university, this all sold with the sugarcoating of recognition in society. The Stasi made everyone believe that in fact they are on their side, there are only some minor complications to overcome.

And what did their target objects have to do for it? Report on others. Not only on their colleagues or neighbours but there was the husband who reported on his wife, for the promise that their common child gets the dream to study medicine fulfilled. Teenagers were convinced to spy on their parents etc. The most intimate human relationships were exploited and used.

Was there any worth in those informations collected? Sometimes there were signs of people being "an enemy of socialism" among them. And intimate "harmless" informations were needed to further feed the system of knowledge. But that was not the real target of control. The real tool of oppression was not that limited knowlegde but the fact that so many people were part of the guilt. How can you ever oppose against a system when you have made that little compromise to sign a paper that you are willing to spy on your wife, neighbour, colleague, fellow artist in a political group! Everybody spied on everybody and most of them had decided for themselves that they will "never give important information". Only the moment they had entered this system of betrayal there was no way out. They could be exposed any time as traitors to their friends, forced to do more "for the sake of socialism". The main weapon of the Stasi were not informations but the fact that people had corrupted themselves, had lost their self respect, their political identity. That was the real goal, the way the secret service ruled. Like 1984, only more subtle. Though intimate "harmless" informations were needed to further feed the system of knowledge. For Varys Shae was in fact the tool to play Tyrion most effectively, by the sheer fact of her existence. An other tool was feeding the animosity between Cersei and Tyrion.

A system like that nourished people like Varys, those who offer the carrot, making you believe they are on your side, while hiding the stick that you are at their mercy for a long time already. The good guy to everyone just as it is convenient, while holding all the strings, letting dance their target persons at will, as long as they are useful. And it is typical for members of that secret society to survive all change of systems, making everyone believe that they have always fought for the good, have tried to arrange compromises "for the sake of......whatever". No, THEY are not the guilty ones, they only tried to prevent the worst!

And Tyrion had, like most of us would no matter how cunning we are, little instruments against that perfious method because we tend not to think in those categories. . He played Varys once but do we know if Varys really had been taken by surprise?

Interesting sidenote: when "The Berlin Wall" came down the rule of Stasi ended but its members very often got away hidden somewhere, quietly following a new career. Only very few got caught by their past and had a deep downfall. What will happen to Varys when The Wall comes down? He might survive.........

[Winterfellian]

@Woman of war, I love your post and the comparisons you make. Very interesting!

[Lummel]

Great summary Lummel!

This is a little off topic but about Jaime's and Varys' interactions, it brings to my mind the infamous riddle from ACOK, mostly because of this quote

In the riddle is a man with a blade that holds the power of life and death in his hands just as Jaime holds Varys' life in his dagger. Through the story we have seen that if LF has armored himself in gold, then Varys armored himself with secrets...

Jaime's motivations and actions are not brought on by external factors like the ones presented in the riddle but by internal ones-the combined feelings of love, shame, regret and guilt Jaime feels towards his brother.

This all makes me thing that Varys' approach to power as transmitted by this riddle might not be as universal and clever as he thinks it is.

Nice summing up of Varys and Littlefinger.

I like your application of Varys' riddle to Jaime. I suppose if the question is who will the man with a sword obey the answer is that it depends on the man with a sword. The offer of wealth, appeal to religious or secular authority isn't going to necessarily move him, it will be something intrinsic to that individual. There's an element I suppose to Varys' information gathering that it is all about finding out what makes one person tick differently from another, finding out the secrets of their individual motivation all the better to be able to manipulate them.

So yes Woman of War's digression seems really on point, I can see Varys as much as file master as spymaster, prince of reports, reading the papers, storing the information.

...A system like that nourished people like Varys, those who offer the carrot, making you believe they are on your side, while hiding the stick that you are at their mercy for a long time already. The good guy to everyone just as it is convenient, while holding all the strings, letting dance their target persons at will, as long as they are useful. And it is typical for members of that secret society to survive all change of systems, making everyone believe that they have always fought for the good, have tried to arrange compromises "for the sake of......whatever". No, THEY are not the guilty ones, they only tried to prevent the worst!

And Tyrion had, like most of us would no matter how cunning we are, little instruments against that perfious method because we tend not to think in those categories. . He played Varys once but do we know if Varys really had been taken by surprise?

Interesting sidenote: when "The Berlin Wall" came down the rule of Stasi ended but its members very often got away hidden somewhere, quietly following a new career. Only very few got caught by their past and had a deep downfall. What will happen to Varys when The Wall comes down? He might survive.........

That really seems to sum up exactly how he has worked. Portraying himself as working for some higher, decent (yet not precisely defined) "good" cause, paddling along however the tide flows by offering up tasty titbits of information.

Anyway. I was reading a review of ADWD and saw the old complaint about Tyrion that he was moaning too much and repeating himself too much over having killed his father and repeating "where do whores go" far too much. And I fell to wondering since we are now trembling on the verge of rereading Tyrion in ADWD together what you expected for Tyrion in that book. Because I am still puzzled by the criticisms about Tyrion's state of mind. I haven't murdered my father after it was revealed that the justification offered for my childhood participation in the rape of my wife was false and a lie (nor indeed have I murdered my father in any other circumstances - I thought I best make that plain, just for the record), but I can imagine that the psychological impact would be pretty huge. Not the kind of thing that you can shrug off after a chapter or two. To me Tyrion's state of mind shows that he is not as locked down emotionally as say Arya becomes.

Was Tyrion's state of mind something you expected coming straight from the crossbow scene, or did you expect something different?