Lady Gwynhyfvar Posted February 24, 2013 Share Posted February 24, 2013 Oh, and major plot points, anyone ever catch that the stag had been gored in the belly and that the direwolf had been stabbed in the neck by the stag? Yes to the direwolf/stag/throat thing! I noticed it early on and then picked up on Catelyn's disquiet as well. Immediately flashed back to that when Ned met his end... But as for the other- which stag was gored? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SFDanny Posted February 24, 2013 Share Posted February 24, 2013 Yes to the direwolf/stag/throat thing! I noticed it early on and then picked up on Catelyn's disquiet as well. Immediately flashed back to that when Ned met his end... But as for the other- which stag was gored?Robert Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Gwynhyfvar Posted February 24, 2013 Share Posted February 24, 2013 RobertWell yeah, I'm not that thick ;)But I thought he was referring to an example of textual symbolism/foreshadowing comparable to the direwolf being impaled by the stag antler? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Pepper Posted February 24, 2013 Share Posted February 24, 2013 Well yeah, I'm not that thick ;)But I thought he was referring to an example of textual symbolism/foreshadowing?I think he might be referring to the show where the stag was found gored to death. Didn't happen in the books. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SFDanny Posted February 24, 2013 Share Posted February 24, 2013 Sorry, LG, didn't mean to imply you were. Should have used one of those infernal smiley icons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Gwynhyfvar Posted February 24, 2013 Share Posted February 24, 2013 Sorry, LG, didn't mean to imply you were. Should have used one of those infernal smiley icons.Lol- we really need an irony icon around here! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alia of the knife Posted February 24, 2013 Share Posted February 24, 2013 Lol- we really need an irony icon around here!What would that look like?A cross between a leer, a blush, a wink and a thumbs-up? :P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Gwynhyfvar Posted February 24, 2013 Share Posted February 24, 2013 What would that look like?A cross between a leer, a blush, a wink and a thumbs-up? :P That probably about covers the contorted face I personally make when being ironic ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alia of the knife Posted February 24, 2013 Share Posted February 24, 2013 I think another example of Jon walking in the shadowy footsteps of Rhaegar is the part, (and I can't remember it exactly), but I think it's after lying with Ygritte he wonders if his Father, (thinking of Ned), felt both the same exctacy and shame in his Mothers bed that he did in Ygrittes.Given what we are led to believe about Rhaegar who was honorable and tried to do the right thing (duty), until it was at cross-purposes with what he wanted,(love), I could imagine him having these conflicted feelings.Martin also seems to like to tell the story of others through others.The story of Jorahs winning the Tourney for Lynesse was the thing that makes me, (and speaking for myself), believe that this was also the story of Rhaegar crowning Lyanna.Martin was demonstrating how the power of love and want becomes a propelling energy in itself for some, and Rhaegar who was inconsistent in winning Tourneys, and unless it was a fix, managed to defeat Arthur Dayne.I suppose I've always believed it was 10% prophesy and 90% Lyanna, because it's also as much a story of what drives us as humans as magic, and sometimes the greatest people fail, fall and disappoint. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghost's Shadow Posted February 25, 2013 Share Posted February 25, 2013 GRRM knows the ending of the story, or the major plot points along the way, and who dies, etc. He has written an outline of the ending and sealed it within a vault with HBO as part of the agreement for the series. To say that GRRM would change the story because it has been guessed, or that his mood may have changed, is a serious stretch of reality. When GRRM writes his story, the characters take life through him. Small details may change, but the overall plot will remain fixed.In the understanding that yes, we have figured out 'from early on' (some during book 1) what Jon's parentage is, think he regrets not having been more mysterious/subtle about things? :smug: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Addam of Hull Posted February 25, 2013 Share Posted February 25, 2013 I think another example of Jon walking in the shadowy footsteps of Rhaegar is the part, (and I can't remember it exactly), but I think it's after lying with Ygritte he wonders if his Father, (thinking of Ned), felt both the same exctacy and shame in his Mothers bed that he did in Ygrittes.Given what we are led to believe about Rhaegar who was honorable and tried to do the right thing in his (duty), until it was at cross-purposes with what he wanted,(love), I could imagine him having these feelings.Martin also seems to like to tell the story of others through others.The story of Jorahs winning the Tourney for Lynesse was the thing that makes me, (and speaking for myself), believe that this was also the story of Rhaegar crowning Lyanna.Martin was demonstrating how the power of love and want becomes a propelling energy in itself for some, and Rhaegar who was inconsistent in winning Tourneys, and unless it was a fix, managed to defeat Arthur Dayne.I suppose I've always believed it was 10% prophesy and 90% Lyanna, because it's also as much a story of what drives us as humans as magic, and sometimes the greatest people fail, fall and disappoint.I'd never considered that Jorah's victory and subsequent betrothal to Lynesse could be a parallel to the situation with Rhaegar and Lyanna. It seems appropriate though, especially since Jorah notes that riding for Lynesse spurred him on to win a tournament when he'd never won one before, and perhaps Rhaegar's desire to crown Lyanna inspired the same skill in him, just that once. I think the general arc of "ride for beautiful girl, marry beautiful girl, take girl home, do something that ruins it all" can be broadly applied to R + L. More interestingly, if Jorah and Lynesse are telling us the story of Rhaegar and Lyanna, does that imply that Rickard not only knew about it, but approved of it? Brandon certainly didn't since he commanded Rhaegar to "come out and die", but he may not have known. it's interesting to think about.In the understanding that yes, we have figured out 'from early on' (some during book 1) what Jon's parentage is, think he regrets not having been more mysterious/subtle about things? :smug:I don't think GGRM regrets that at all. George has said before that he likes to write in such a way that it rewards people who are observant. He likes including the subtle details to give us the chance to grasp what he's trying to get at. Sure, we basically know that R+L=J is canon in all but name, but when he started writing this series, message boards like these didn't really exist so the likelihood of many people guessing the right answer was pretty low. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alia of the knife Posted February 25, 2013 Share Posted February 25, 2013 I'd never considered that Jorah's victory and subsequent betrothal to Lynesse could be a parallel to the situation with Rhaegar and Lyanna. It seems appropriate though, especially since Jorah notes that riding for Lynesse spurred him on to win a tournament when he'd never won one before, and perhaps Rhaegar's desire to crown Lyanna inspired the same skill in him, just that once. I think the general arc of "ride for beautiful girl, marry beautiful girl, take girl home, do something that ruins it all" can be broadly applied to R + L. More interestingly, if Jorah and Lynesse are telling us the story of Rhaegar and Lyanna, does that imply that Rickard not only knew about it, but approved of it? Brandon certainly didn't since he commanded Rhaegar to "come out and die", but he may not have known. it's interesting to think about.I don't think GGRM regrets that at all. George has said before that he likes to write in such a way that it rewards people who are observant. He likes including the subtle details to give us the chance to grasp what he's trying to get at. Sure, we basically know that R+L=J is canon in all but name, but when he started writing this series, message boards like these didn't really exist so the likelihood of many people guessing the right answer was pretty low.For me at least, that story was like a "bread crumb" as it came a couple of books before ADwD and Selmy confirmed Rhaegars love for Lyanna, but more, he compared it to a "poison," and he should have stayed with Elia, so no ringing endorsement.There was also another story, (a story within a story), about another Prince, perhaps before the Targs.,(I can't remember the details), and he laid siege to a town/city. He fell in love with the Princess and took her despite already having a wife and children.Again, I thought of Rhaegar and Elia.And good reminder on Martins motives.He just recently lamented in an interview, and I don't have the reference and I'm paraphrasing, that he wished his fans wouldn't focus so much on the politics and other details, because they were missing the romance.I don't think it's not that Martin isn't a romantic, it's just he doesn't sugar-coat the reality of the outcome of romantic vs. pragmatic results.The shining white Knight is not always going to come back, and the beautiful maiden may actually die in her tower. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UVA Posted February 25, 2013 Share Posted February 25, 2013 The shining white Knight is not always going to come back, and the beautiful maiden may actually die in her tower.Exactly. I've never understood the criticism that the R&L story is, to use a Jane Austen quote, "light, bright and sparkling." A young mother is dead and her family suffers unspeakable tragedy; a boy is robbed of a mother's love and longs for an identity; a promising leader is killed and his dynasty is in desolation. What's so unicorn and rainbows about this?There's so much talk here about Martin's trope busting; and while I think he's careful not to replicate and outright accept standard fantasy tropes, I don't think he's out to break down the barriers of good, satisfying storytelling. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alia of the knife Posted February 25, 2013 Share Posted February 25, 2013 Exactly. I've never understood the criticism that the R&L story is, to use a Jane Austen quote, "light, bright and sparkling." A young mother is dead and her family suffers unspeakable tragedy; a boy is robbed of a mother's love and longs for an identity; a promising leader is killed and his dynasty is in desolation. What's so unicorn and rainbows about this?There's so much talk here about Martin's trope busting; and while I think he's careful not to replicate and outright accept standard fantasytropes, I don't think he's not out to break down the barriers of good, satisfying storytelling.Exactly, and trope-busting for the sake of trope-busting can very well net you a bad story. As I've said many times, I'd rather well-told story even if it's a cliche' over a badly done story for the sake of seeking "originality," which is nigh on impossible these days.There is a reason we still read Shakespeare and "The Illiad," but "Fifty Shades of Grey," while satisfying the current trends, probably will end up in the dust bin of literary history.Given how you've broken it down so brutally, yet effectively, Jon, the Starks and the Targaryens had better get an ending that's "light, bright, and sparkling." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ygrain Posted February 25, 2013 Share Posted February 25, 2013 Exactly. I've never understood the criticism that the R&L story is, to use a Jane Austen quote, "light, bright and sparkling." A young mother is dead and her family suffers unspeakable tragedy; a boy is robbed of a mother's love and longs for an identity; a promising leader is killed and his dynasty is in desolation. What's so unicorn and rainbows about this?Yeah, exactly. I see their story as very tragic, even more tragic if they really loved each other. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon Icefyre Posted February 25, 2013 Share Posted February 25, 2013 Exactly. I've never understood the criticism that the R&L story is, to use a Jane Austen quote, "light, bright and sparkling." A young mother is dead and her family suffers unspeakable tragedy; a boy is robbed of a mother's love and longs for an identity; a promising leader is killed and his dynasty is in desolation. What's so unicorn and rainbows about this?There's so much talk here about Martin's trope busting; and while I think he's careful not to replicate and outright accept standard fantasy tropes, I don't think he's not out to break down the barriers of good, satisfying storytelling.Exactly, and trope-busting for the sake of trope-busting can very well net you a bad story. As I've said many times, I'd rather well-told story even if it's a cliche' over a badly done story for the sake of seeking "originality," which is nigh on impossible these days.There is a reason we still read Shakespeare and "The Illiad," but "Fifty Shades of Grey," while satisfying the current trends, probably will end up in the dust bin of literary history.Yeah, exactly. I see their story as very tragic, even more tragic if they really loved each other.Couldn't agree more. On top of the fact that the whole rebellion situation in general was full of grey areas. You have heroes on both sides fighting for two kings that turn out be the villians. For the loyalists you have heroes like Rhaegar fighting for his father the Mad king, on the rebel side you have heroes like Ned Stark fighting for Robert who in my opinion is one of the biggest secrete villians of the story. A man who was blinded by pure hatred of the Targs to the point where he allowed/approved the slaughtering of innocent children without consequence one of which was still a baby. I highly suspect Robert's hatred for the Targs did not start when Lyanna ran away with Rhaegar(although it did increase it) I think Robert's hatred of the Targs started the day he saw his father die in that ship wreck coming from Essos on the order's of Aerys in order to find Rhaegar a wife, I mean it makes sense. I think Robert blamed Aerys for his father's death afterall if Aerys didn't send his father to find Rhaegar a wife he would have never been on that ship. Robert's hatred for the Targs/Aerys and Rhaegar secretly started at that moment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackfyre the Bold Posted February 25, 2013 Share Posted February 25, 2013 R+L=JNever again will I dare claim otherwise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ygrain Posted February 25, 2013 Share Posted February 25, 2013 Thinking along the lines that Ned may have been tipped off at Lyanna's request:The KG were adamant on not letting Ned in while Lyanna seemed to be holdingonto her life until she could speak to him - seems like a conflict of interests here. A couple of options comes to mind:1) Lyanna sent for Ned without the KG knowing, e.g. with the help of Ashara (who may have been her lady in waiting at ToJ; hence Ashara's suicide for causing her brother's death)2) Lyanna sent for Ned with the KG's approval but they changed their minds later - now, this doesn't seem very probable, contacting the second-in-command of the Rebellion would have been a well-thought act3) Lyanna sent for Ned after she learned about Rhaegar's death but before the news of the Sack arrived. With Rhaegar dead and herself heavily pregnant, she definitely needed help - the future of the Targs was uncertain, Aerys would have been hostile to her, Robert's reaction hardly favourable, so family would have been the logical choice. Also, since Aerys and Aegon are still alive, the KG have no reason to object, it is only the death of these two that changes everything.Thoughts? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Gwynhyfvar Posted February 25, 2013 Share Posted February 25, 2013 Thinking along the lines that Ned may have been tipped off at Lyanna's request:The KG were adamant on not letting Ned in while Lyanna seemed to be holdingonto her life until she could speak to him - seems like a conflict of interests here. A couple of options comes to mind:1) Lyanna sent for Ned without the KG knowing, e.g. with the help of Ashara (who may have been her lady in waiting at ToJ; hence Ashara's suicide for causing her brother's death)2) Lyanna sent for Ned with the KG's approval but they changed their minds later - now, this doesn't seem very probable, contacting the second-in-command of the Rebellion would have been a well-thought act3) Lyanna sent for Ned after she learned about Rhaegar's death but before the news of the Sack arrived. With Rhaegar dead and herself heavily pregnant, she definitely needed help - the future of the Targs was uncertain, Aerys would have been hostile to her, Robert's reaction hardly favourable, so family would have been the logical choice. Also, since Aerys and Aegon are still alive, the KG have no reason to object, it is only the death of these two that changes everything.Thoughts?How about either 1, or a combination of 1 and 3. Could have unfolded like this:Ashara was at ToJ with Lyanna as you suggest.When news of Rhaegar's death arrived by messenger from the Trident, Ashara was entrusted with a mission and a message for Ned from the still pregnant Lyanna (with or without KG knowledge, at this point it would not have mattered, as you note) I think it likely that someone trusted by Ashara (Wylla?) heads to Storms End to find Ned, knowing that due to the desperate siege there and Robert's wounds from the Trident, Ned is the most likely war leader to go to Stannis' aid. Arriving at SE, Ned receives the message and hurries to ToJ (with Wylla in tow, if she was the messenger) In the meantime word of the sack reaches the KG and Jon is born. The KG are now possibly in the awkward position of having allowed Lyanna to send for her brother and having to protect the newborn heir to the throne from Robert Baratheon, who is known to be Ned's bestie or they are completely side-whalloped by Ned's arrival. I tend to think the former. At any rate, they cannot know of Ned's reaction to the slaughter of innocents, only that he is one of the Rebellion's top lieutenants. Ashara in the meantime has returned to Starfall, perhaps to arrange a ship for Lyanna to return to the North. (Ultimately I think Ned did send Jon by ship to Winterfell, although I think it most likely that they took the Western route and Ned disembarked at Seagard, from where he went to Riverrun to collect Catelyn and Robb, while Jon and his entourage, which would have included Lyanna's remains, continued North by ship, possibly to Barrowton- which would explain how they returned Barbrey Dustin her husband William's horse)Events proceed as we know them at ToJ, Ned heads to Starfall with Jon and Wylla- not simply to bring Ashara a sword but to get to the ship he has been told she is arranging. Ashara is devastated to learn of the death of her brother and all of the others. In scenario one, feeling responsible for all those deaths she throws herself from the tower and that's it for Ashara. In scenario two, she aids Ned & Jon's return to the North and then fakes her own death so that she can continue to pursue her secret agenda, whatever that may be (I have very specific ideas about that- I'm sure we all do, but that's a discussion for another time ;) )*edited for clarity, and again for further clarity... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Leftwich Posted February 25, 2013 Share Posted February 25, 2013 3) Lyanna sent for Ned after she learned about Rhaegar's death but before the news of the Sack arrived.Thoughts?This same thought came to me the other day. After the Trident, there would have been Dornish soldier/refugees heading back to Dorne with the news of the battle.ETA: Wylla being able to get to see/talk to Ned at SE seems less likely than Ashara being let in to see Ned.Then Ned has the Lord Redwyne and his ships drop her off at Starfall on the way back to the Arbor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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