The Wire: Continued

[Fat Mac]

Also, I'm only 3 seasons into the show, and I can honestly say that Stringer Bell is one of the best TV villains I've ever seen.

I concur ;)

[Myrddin]

I'm about halfway through season 5. While I think it's a great show, it does get bogged down at times. It took me a long time to get through season 1. I think I started twice over the years before finally pushing myself through it this spring. After the great ending of season 1, I jumped right into season 2. Again it took me a while to get through it, but it paid off. Season 3 was great, because by then I knew the pacing of the show well enough to let it develop. Then season 4 never seemed to take off and I'm actually kind of glad that season 5 is shorter and the last one.

Don't get me wrong. I love what they do with the characters. Stringer is indeed one of the most well rounded "villains" I've seen in a long time. And I like the presented grayness where the cops and politicians are just as corrupt as the criminals (if not more so). The apathy. The backstabbing for position. The petty territorial squabbles that mirrors the "My COrner" mentality of the street. They do a great job of rounding everyone out so that you can totally see McNultty sitting down to eat with Brodie at that diner and they can have a civilized conversation with a semblance of mutual respect.

But I find it hard to get excited about a show that just points out the reality that no matter what good you intend, you are powerless to overcome.

No, I'd never want this to have a happy ending. It was bittersweet when Stringer got killed and the frustration of McNultty said it all: All this work for nothing? That was a great moment, but I'm kind of getting the same feeling as I near the end of the series.

I know. If I was expecting a happy ending, then I wasn't paying attention. :)

[Mark Antony]

The Sopranos is the best show ever imo but gods season 3 of The Wire might be my favorite season of anything.

[wolverine]

But I find it hard to get excited about a show that just points out the reality that no matter what good you intend, you are powerless to overcome.

Change show to book and don't you have ASOIAF?

[Myrddin]

Change show to book and don't you have ASOIAF?

Yes and no. There are more triumphs to balance the tragedies in ASOIAF.

Stringer being shot before the Major Crime Unit got enough evidence to arrest him is more akin to Tyrion planning the defense of Kings Landing and having his dad arrive BEFORE he can raise the chain and use the wildfire.

It would've been a cool moment as a single instance, but if every event ended like that in ASOIAF, I'd probably not be reading it still.

I can completely see why people love the Wire. The characters are very compelling and well drawn. The over all narrative is where it failed to get me hooked. I'm glad I watched it. From a writer's point of view, I learned a lot. But I probably won't rewatch it, like I do Rome or will rewatch Deadwood soon.

[Khal-a-bunga]

But I find it hard to get excited about a show that just points out the reality that no matter what good you intend, you are powerless to overcome.

But that's exactly why these kind of works are important. If this show inspired even one person to aspire for something better, then it has done more than the great multitude of other shows out there. Hell, if it has even given someone something to genuinely think about, it's done more than most shows on television. It's also important to give a sense of perspective, and even empathy for people (and situations) that are often presented as simple matters of black and white, or good and evil by media outlets that treat news as entertainment. Once you've finished the show, you may find an itch to go back and re-watch it. It's infinitely more rewarding than watching it for the first time through, in my experience.

But again, David Simon is a realist who leans heavily towards pessimism, and not everyone likes their entertainment to present that perspective. But make no mistake, The Wire is full of plenty of moments of personal triumphs, as well. It's just that they are fleeting, and often small when compared to our losses and failures. But still there, nonetheless.

[Lord Flashheart]

The Sopranos is the best show ever imo but gods season 3 of The Wire might be my favorite season of anything.

I respectfully disagree. Pine Barrens ranks as one of my favorite episodes of any show thou.

I can completely see why people love the Wire. The characters are very compelling and well drawn. The over all narrative is where it failed to get me hooked. I'm glad I watched it. From a writer's point of view, I learned a lot. But I probably won't rewatch it, like I do Rome or will rewatch Deadwood soon.

I was hooked from about the second episode so while I cannot relate, re-watching The Wire is a must. Similar to if you only watched GOT and never read the books, you would need multiple viewings before you know every little character in the story, and were able to catch most the details. The Wire is packed with things that can only be understood on a re-watch, shamefully I have watched The Wire from start to finish probably ten times, and I still sometimes catch something I never did before. While nothing will get any better for the players involved, The Wire itself only gets better.

[Maithanet]

The Sopranos is the best show ever imo but gods season 3 of The Wire might be my favorite season of anything.

Season 3 is so good. Why is it so good? I think I posted this before in the favorite quotes thread, but the epigraph for S3, Episode 11 is:

"We ain't gotta dream no more, man." - Stringer Bell

This is IMO the best quote in the entire show. So much depth in such a short sentence.

The setting is Stringer and Avon shooting the shit on a rooftop, talking about the good old days and how far they've come. Stringer says that they don't have to dream anymore; they are running the old hood. But at the same time, the statement is hollow, because both of them (particularly Avon) are nostalgic for the simpler time, when they were hungry young men trying to win The Game. In addition, the statement is an outright lie. Stringer just sold Avon out to Colvin and Avon gave Stringer up to Omar and Brother Muzone. The quote can also be interpreted as “We ain’t got a dream no more” because the dream was truly to run the streets together, and that dream is gone. Without trust, both men are finished.

In addition, there is the larger thematic interpretation of the quote. The Game, which Stringer and Avon have played so ruthlessly, is failing them. Their success has brought money and women, but also the additional pressures of people gunning for them and 24/7 police surveillance. After working so hard to take over West Baltimore, the two men miss the simple pleasures of snatch and run jobs. Neither men really expected to get out of street level crime, and now that they have, they are in unfamiliar and uncomfortable territory.

Finally this quote echoes the decline of the American dream due to the failure of its institutions, which is what the entire show is about. America itself is all about rising up and building a better life, but that is increasingly difficult due to institutional dysfunction eating away at bastions like schools, courts, justice system, etc. It’s not just Stringer and Avon that have lost their way.

[Mr. E]

But I find it hard to get excited about a show that just points out the reality that no matter what good you intend, you are powerless to overcome.

David Simon actually talks about this a lot. You know what one of the main cues they took the structure of the show from? The Greek tragedians - that copy of Prometheus Bound Clay Davis flashes in season 5 is no joke. They worked the show around the idea of fate - that, indeed, the course of your life is bound by forces - gods - beyond your control. The difference, according to Simon? In "The Wire" they substituted the word "gods" with the word "institutions." Really cast the show in a different light for me.

[Myrddin]

David Simon actually talks about this a lot. You know what one of the main cues they took the structure of the show from? The Greek tragedians - that copy of Prometheus Bound Clay Davis flashes in season 5 is no joke. They worked the show around the idea of fate - that, indeed, the course of your life is bound by forces - gods - beyond your control. The difference, according to Simon? In "The Wire" they substituted the word "gods" with the word "institutions." Really cast the show in a different light for me.

That's an interesting angle. I like that.

Nearing the end of season 5 and watching

the rapid decline of McNulty as he loses control of his scheme and it's about to unravel before his eyes.

It does get frustrating to cheer for characters doomed to fail.

I may change my tune in a few months and rate the show higher, as it does make you think (a good thing, as mentioned above). But right now, the frustration of watching the characters all (well, almost all) self destruct is overcoming the enjoyment.

Even the upside of Bunk somehow becoming the voice of reason is undercut by Lester giving in to obsession over Marlo.

It's all fascinating from a character study point of view, but they cancel each other out. As intended, society is shown as just perpetual backstabbing in nature (intentionally like most or unintentionally like the collateral damage from McNulty's schemes).

My personal view (and experience) of society is more well rounded than that.

To build on Wolverine's comparison to ASOIAF yesterday: After thinking on it more, I had the same feeling finishing season 4 of the Wire as I had finishing DwD: I'm kind of over the story but want to see it finished. The joy of reading/watching has waned.

Again, I'm not posting these thoughts to piss on the Wire love around here. I get it. I understand it. I really do. I just don't feel it as strongly. But I appreciate the additional posts like Wolvie and Mr E. I like the different points of view and I may well decide to rewatch the show years from now with an eye to see all the connective tissue better. Just not all 5 seasons. ;)

[Mr. E]

I am surprised about your indifference to season 4. I might be biased as both my parents are public school teachers, but as far as I'm aware most fans consider four one of, if not the best, season .

[The Monkey]

You think that already, wait till you see what he does in season 5. You'll think he's the reincarnation of Machiavelli.

Don't tease, bitch.

[Mr. E]

Don't tease, bitch.

Sorry man. Just a gansta, I suppose.

[The Monkey]

Sorry man. Just a gansta, I suppose.

What did I tell you about playing them away games?

[Myrddin]

I am surprised about your indifference to season 4. I might be biased as both my parents are public school teachers, but as far as I'm aware most fans consider four one of, if not the best, season .

I didn't care for the Marlo narrative (even though Snoop and Chris' methods were original) as he's half the man Stringer was.

And the kids. Of all the kids, only one makes it out for the better? I got a bit spoiled up thread (my fault), so I see that Duque will devolve into Bubbles and Michael becomes Omar. Michael's evolution was interesting, if surprising given his initial reservation against Marlo. The treatment of Duque and the "snitch" is just so depressing.

Those on top of the Major Crimes Unit stalling out, the mayoral race, and maybe the lack of McNulty (which turned out to be a good thing for him), just turned made 4th season not as interesting.

Herc's screw-ups were kind of fun to watch, in a slow motion disaster kind of way.

I did like Carver and Prez's development, but they were drowned by the rest.

There were ups and downs for me. Just by the end, I was losing interest in watching.

And Mr. E: You be trollin' The Monkey, yo. :)

Good man.

[Mr. E]

I didn't care for the Marlo narrative (even though Snoop and Chris' methods were original) as he's half the man Stringer was.

And the kids. Of all the kids, only one makes it out for the better? I got a bit spoiled up thread (my fault), so I see that Duque will devolve into Bubbles and Michael becomes Omar. Michael's evolution was interesting, if surprising given his initial reservation against Marlo. The treatment of Duque and the "snitch" is just so depressing.

Those on top of the Major Crimes Unit stalling out, the mayoral race, and maybe the lack of McNulty (which turned out to be a good thing for him), just turned made 4th season not as interesting.

Herc's screw-ups were kind of fun to watch, in a slow motion disaster kind of way.

I did like Carver and Prez's development, but they were drowned by the rest.

There were ups and downs for me. Just by the end, I was losing interest in watching.

And Mr. E: You be trollin' The Monkey, yo. :)

Good man.

You could make the argument that three of them have happy endings, as we see 3 of the problem students (including Namond) behaving better in class.

I thought the season 4 twist was one of the subtle and most subversive narratives I've ever seen As you say, the common expectation was for Namond to be a thug and Michael to make it out of the gulag; instead, Michael gets sucked down the spiral while Namond makes it out alive.

What did I tell you about playing them away games?

Damn, man. You saw my ghetto ass coming a mile away.

[Shryke]

You could make the argument that three of them have happy endings, as we see 3 of the problem students (including Namond) behaving better in class.

I thought the season 4 twist was one of the subtle and most subversive narratives I've ever seen As you say, the common expectation was for Namond to be a thug and Michael to make it out of the gulag; instead, Michael gets sucked down the spiral while Namond makes it out alive.

And more importantly, look at WHY Namond made it and Michael didn't.

[Mr. E]

And more importantly, look at WHY Namond made it and Michael didn't.

Curious for you to expand on this, because in fitting with the tragedy/fate theme of the show, the only reason I can tell Namond made it off the top of my head was sheer dumb luck.

[Maithanet]

Curious for you to expand on this, because in fitting with the tragedy/fate theme of the show, the only reason I can tell Namond made it off the top of my head was sheer dumb luck.

Well, his father explicitly ordered his mother to let him out of the game. I always liked Wee-Bey; he is a realist.

[Fat Mac]

Curious for you to expand on this, because in fitting with the tragedy/fate theme of the show, the only reason I can tell Namond made it off the top of my head was sheer dumb luck.

In the end I'd also have to attribute it to luck. I tried coming up with a reason for Namond but I can't. He just happened to act out in class which got him sent to that special class with Bunny, who just happened to take a liking to him. Namond just happened to meet the right person at the right time who had the power to help him. The people who could have helped the other three (Carver with Randy, Cutty with Michael and Prez with Dukie) couldn't do exactly what Bunny did with Namond. Also, maybe because Namond realizes he wasn't cut out for the game after Michael beat the shit out of him and Kennard on separate occasions.