[Book Spoilers] HBO playing up the 'romance' side?

[Buckwheat]

men lose their heads easily? :leer:

:lol: Pretty much, yes, this was what I gathered from this episode.

yes, it would seem all the men were getting their groove on in that episode but at least theon was breaking any promises. just being dumb.

Well, all three showed themselves in a dumb light that episode, this was one of the my main impressions there, I remember. ;)

[Dragonstoned]

Well, no shit OP.

This is a series that 100% removes any AND ALL strategic and militaristic discussion, and even the discussions about how starving everyone is, because "people won't be interested in it" and instead focuses it's energy on being a soap opera.

EDIT: And this is hilarious, because everyone I know(even non-book readers) actually talk about how they wish they could here more military related talk since the story is ABOUT WAR, and NO ONE gives a fuck about the show relationships. One of my friends specifically who's nonbook reading actually isn't going to watch season 3 onwards, because he's sick with all the shitty unconvincing romances in the show.

Chill, Mountain! You having a bad headache? Was mostly asking whether people saw the romance theme continued in s3 in Tyrion-Shae and Joff-Marg.

Do really wish they'd include more of the strategy and military though. Unsullied friends think Robb looks like a gimp for pissing about in the Westerlands, when in the books he had a decent plan going.

[Sasha Steelsong]

It would be a weird decision to deviate from the books and make Joff/Margaery a romance (even a one-sided one). It would be even stranger if they had Margaery's influence begin to soften and improve Joff. I'm not sure whether I like it or not...but it seems like that's the angle they are going to take.

This is what is worrying me about the Margaery stuff, though I did think it was very much one sided, so I don't think it will be like Margaery and Joffrey really fall for each other in anyway. I think it is totally being done to beef up the Cersei/Margaery stuff that had to be made up this season to fill the void in KL, since they aren't getting to Joffrey and Margaery's wedding until Season 4 and in the book the story in KL is really just wedding prep without something extra made up. I do worry however that a byproduct of that will be Joffrey being less of a horrendous monster, which I entirely oppose. Sure the show took Joffrey further down the overt monster road than in the books, but even in the books he gets progressively worse with no sign of hope as they progress.

Also not sure where they are going with the whole Sansa/Shae thing. Sure Shae might get jealous about the marriage later on, but she does seem to genuinely care about both Sansa and Tyrion and gets the court politics that seem to be at play (which BookShae did not in any way). I mean Shae actually suggested that she and Tyrion go on the run at the end of last season, so she is clearly very different than in the books, but the changes give me pause because at present I don't see her meeting the same end that she does in the books unless the aforementioned jealousy is used to transform the character.

[Newstar]

This idea is still sketchy but does anyone feel D&D are over-emphasising love in the series?

I know this isn't what you asked, but D&D have mentioned that there will be "more" romance in Season 3. If they're just referring to book material, that's true, as Jaime/Brienne had serious romantic/sexual overtones, Jon/Ygritte was very romantic, Dany has Jorah's advances and her flirtation with Daario, Edmure and Roslin are cute together (for all of 30 seconds), etc. etc. However, I could see the showrunners dialing up the romance on a few fronts, and here are a few ways they might do it:

1. Robb/Talisa: more emphasis on their relationship, which had its basis in a love match rather than a need to save Talisa's honour

2. Jaime/Brienne: maybe dial up the romantic/sexual subtext even more

3. Joffrey/Margaery: Joffrey is genuinely taken with Margaery and is trying to impress her. There could be scenes of Joffrey trying to flirt with Margaery (which sounds like comedy gold).

4. Loras/Sansa: If Loras is swapped in for Willas as a potential Tyrell groom for Sansa, I could see there being scenes where Loras courts Sansa and Sansa has stars in her eyes. Very romantic, I guess, in a Taylor Swift video kind of way (bonus points for dramatic irony lulz, because he's gay and all).

5. Jon/Ygritte: will probably be the same as in the books, but more so

6. Edmure/Roslin: again, same as in the books, but more so

7. Tyrion/Shae: continuation of the TV version of their relationship, which is much more loving, romantic, etc. etc. than in the books.

Could have chosen a younger Sandor though.

To be fair, the three main men in Sansa's life in ASOIAF--I know it's gross, but that sums it up--are all within a few years of each other in the books, with Tyrion being the youngest, the Hound being older than he is (wiki says three years), and Littlefinger being older than the Hound (wiki says by three years), and all three characters on the show are played by actors who are almost exactly the same age (either 43 or 44), so you can't say that HBO wasn't consistent in putting them all within roughly the same age range.

hbo also did focus groups and both men and women said they didn't want to see much more than sandor being a protector. so i think it was a combination of things that made this "pairing" go away.

Hahaha, that amuses me for some reason. See, GRRM? Even random viewers in focus groups think your pairings are creepy. Take a hint. Seriously, though, I'd assumed most of the romantic/sexual undertones to Sandor/Sansa in the show were scrapped because of the actress' age and general ookiness about suggesting a romantic connection between a character played by an underage actress and a character played by a fortysomething actor, not because of focus groups taking issue with it. That's the first I've heard of that reason behind the change, although it explains a lot (especially since one of the showrunners--Benioff, I think--had no problem describing the Hound as "attracted" to Sansa in a mini-interview segment).

...I'd sort of thought that because the showrunners know how everything ends (and they're the ones writing the bulk of the episodes), that the characters and character dynamics they chose to emphasize might carry significance with respect to the endgame for the books (within reason, obviously, I don't think anyone thinks that Book Shae is going to be resurrected because of the emphasis in the show on Tyrion and Shae's romance). I hadn't even thought about the effect of focus groups on the sorts of relationship dynamics they chose to depict, though. If focus groups are influencing the content of certain relationships and character dynamics, then any predictive weight attributed to how the show depicts certain relationships or characters is lessened substantially, since it's the result of focus groups and not of the showrunners deliberately changing it up to move things towards the endgame. I guess that means that all the SanSan fans who were worried about the possible significance of Sandor/Sansa being substantially downplayed in the show can rest easy.

most of the posters there referred constantly to the rapey undertone of the relationship

But the Hound didn't even do anything in the show! He seemed distinctly unthreatening towards Sansa in the Blackwater episode. He roughed her up a bit in the deleted scene, but there wasn't anything sexual about it. The only thing that might qualify was the time he leered at her in 1x08, but he wasn't even touching her. If viewers were taking issue with that, I can only imagine what they would have made of the book Blackwater incident or of the time he held a bare sword against her neck.

[jons nissa]

Even random viewers in focus groups think your pairings are creepy. Take a hint. Seriously, though, I'd assumed most of the romantic/sexual undertones to Sandor/Sansa in the show were scrapped because of the actress' age and general ookiness about suggesting a romantic connection between a character played by an underage actress and a character played by a fortysomething actor, not because of focus groups taking issue with it. That's the first I've heard of that reason behind the change, although it explains a lot (especially since one of the showrunners--Benioff, I think--had no problem describing the Hound as "attracted" to Sansa in a mini-interview segment).

But the Hound didn't even do anything in the show! He seemed distinctly unthreatening towards Sansa in the Blackwater episode. He roughed her up a bit in the deleted scene, but there wasn't anything sexual about it. The only thing that might qualify was the time he leered at her in 1x08, but he wasn't even touching her. If viewers were taking issue with that, I can only imagine what they would have made of the book Blackwater incident or of the time he held a bare sword against her neck.

as someone who used to attend focus groups for work, i always thought it was weird that the powers that be would take the word of a handful of people as the will of the masses. i mean, i totally understand the premise of a focus group but i always felt it should be taken with more of a grain of salt than most do. still, the groups weren't interested in romantic sansan very much. not sure if that was why it was scrapped from the series though.

i also don't know if the age of the actors was the defining reason either since as you stated, all her main suitors are in the same age bracket and she's still marrying tyrion. i think sansan was toned do for lots of reasons. i do expect the "come kiss daddy' stuff to disappear though i'm sure they'll think of another way to make it creepy for her.

finally, the TWoP has a section for book readers. that's what i was referring to when i said they almost all mentioned the rapey, violent undertone of sansan. i haven't checked what the unsullied think of the pair as portrayed on the screen but i think i read they see him as a protector.

[Waylin Stark]

I don't mind the show having an increased amount of love as long as all the betrayals take place. That'll only increase the shock and pain.

This will be strongest in Tyrion-Shae, and also in Robb-Talisa (as if RW isn't shocking enough!) and even more so if it turns out Talisa is a spy which many people seem to strongly suspect.

As for Joffrey-Margaery, I'm not all that worried because Margaery is just playing the douchebag.

Plus later on there's Jaime-Cersei's breakup, which is quite gradual in the books, but I think they'll make it more dramatic on TV.

[Newstar]

i mean, i totally understand the premise of a focus group but i always felt it should be taken with more of a grain of salt than most do.

No, I agree. A camel is a horse designed by a committee and all that. (On a related note, I get leery of situations where there's a weird feedback relationship between fans and the creators, so that fannish input winds up driving the creative content of the show. This happens a lot with romantic pairings on TV shows. There's perceived chemistry between two characters, fans clamour for some of romantic intrigue, and the creators pander to this by creating a romantic relationship between the two characters where perhaps one wasn't there before. Also, bringing back from the dead popular characters who were killed off. I understand why it happens--the creators know which side their bread is buttered on--but it's almost a process of creation by survey. It seems to muck with the process. That's why it's almost comforting that GRRM, for ASOIAF at least, seems determined to write what he wants to write, haters and naysaying fans be damned.)

still, the groups weren't interested in romantic sansan very much. not sure if that was why it was scrapped from the series though.

Kind of odd. It seemed like a lot of non-book readers were all over SanSan on the show and shipping it like crazy. (Ditto for non-book TV critics, it seemed.) I guess the focus groups didn't drink the Kool-Aid.

i also don't know if the age of the actors was the defining reason either since as you stated, all her main suitors are in the same age bracket and she's still marrying tyrion.

Yeah, the Tyrion/Sansa marriage seemed like it's something that could have been cut or written around, so I'm surprised that they included it.

finally, the TWoP has a section for book readers. that's what i was referring to when i said they almost all mentioned the rapey, violent undertone of sansan.

Well, because it is, in the books. I mean, there's other stuff going on there as well, but the undertones suggesting sexual violence in, at the very least, the Blackwater scene (where he throws her down on her bed and demands a song from her at knifepoint) and the scene where he holds a bare sword to her neck earlier in ACOK, are clearly there.

[The She Wolf]

Not sure how I feel about the Joff/Margaery thing. Him being a horrible person is the motivation for QOT being behind the PW. I doubt he's genuinely softening, just playing nice like he initially did with Sansa.

[King of the Road]

Well, no shit OP.

This is a series that 100% removes any AND ALL strategic and militaristic discussion, and even the discussions about how starving everyone is, because "people won't be interested in it" and instead focuses it's energy on being a soap opera.

EDIT: And this is hilarious, because everyone I know(even non-book readers) actually talk about how they wish they could here more military related talk since the story is ABOUT WAR, and NO ONE gives a fuck about the show relationships. One of my friends specifically who's nonbook reading actually isn't going to watch season 3 onwards, because he's sick with all the shitty unconvincing romances in the show.

One could argue that the war results from love though.

[utecifa]

I have no problem with it at all.

It will keep non book readers interested, because people seem to like watching romance and love play out on screen.

Plus in the grand scheme of things it's not that big of a deal because I'm nearly certain the outcomes of all these "loves" will be the same as in the book. So not a big deal to me.

[Clariana]

No one's mentioned Stannis and the red woman.... Now that was revved up very clearly... Or was it just sex?

[Buckwheat]

I think that Stannis/Mel was just sex. I do not believe any of them actually loved each other. Mel needs Stannis to perform her creepy tricks and because she is convinced he is the saviour of the world. I am on the side of the theory that she has him under some sort of a spell to keep him under control.

Also, Stavos. It is known. :P

[Jon Mark Selmy]

I agree with the OP, mostly. This is something they are doing to appeal to the lowest common denominator needed for a TV show to appeal for people who either don't read books or don't read these kinds of books (be it genre or books as complex). I wish this is something they ddin't have to do, but unfortunatelly GoT would become a niche show (and wouldn't be abble to come up with the necessary budget) if they didn't. The same goes for some of the more gratuitous sex scenes.

[Woman of War]

i don't think the sansan cut had much to do with the creators not getting sansa's personality. it has more to do with the actor's age but even more to do with viewer reaction to the pair. with westeros.org down so much, i drifted over to the TWoP site. (a junkie's got to get their fix however they can!) most of the posters there referred constantly to the rapey undertone of the relationship. hbo also did focus groups and both men and women said they didn't want to see much more than sandor being a protector. so i think it was a combination of things that made this "pairing" go away.

interesting comments over at that site. almost all of them agreed that sansa seemed to be in constant danger of being raped - much more than any other female character on the show.

.....

If all, they may have made a romantic arc of Sandor/ Sansa more possible than in the books where Sandor assaulted Sansa with a knife and considered raping her , after that you could never sell to the viewers a fourteen or so year old fall in love with her assailant. After her near rape experience in the streets that would be highly unbelievable. Although HBO seems to emphazise more the protective fatherly aspect of the Sandor/Sansa relationship anyways, leaving out even an unilateral erotic interest of Sandor towards Sansa, something that actually enriches Sandor's character. Even if it is weird and full of potential violence there is that tender aspect of care and protection in its ambiguity between fatherly protection and twisted attraction.

Yes, Sansa seems indeed in constant danger of being raped, more than other female characters: BUT we do not get to see the cruel desastres de la guerra that happen to other women since describing them in a book and presenting them in all their cruelty on screen to tv public is different. No Pia, no Lollys, no rape tourism in the villages.

And I had switched to a WOMENS' Asoiaf and GOT forum (in German) when the board was down. There the Sandor/Sansa relationship is seen as straightforward creepy and rapey, few are willing to see the fragile aspects in Sandor's personality.

[jons nissa]

If all, they may have made a romantic arc of Sandor/ Sansa more possible than in the books where Sandor assaulted Sansa with a knife and considered raping her , after that you could never sell to the viewers a fourteen or so year old fall in love with her assailant. After her near rape experience in the streets that would be highly unbelievable. Although HBO seems to emphazise more the protective fatherly aspect of the Sandor/Sansa relationship anyways, leaving out even an unilateral erotic interest of Sandor towards Sansa, something that actually enriches Sandor's character. Even if it is weird and full of potential violence there is that tender aspect of care and protection in its ambiguity between fatherly protection and twisted attraction.

very interesting. and yes, i agree, it is a "healthier" place to start a relationship at than after demands being placed upon you with a knife at your throat.

and it's funny that you mention sansa's previous "near rape" situation since many of the posters said the same thing. they felt that having sandor place her in such a situation after having just rescued her from it would have been strange.

i'm not sure i agree about sandor's erotic interest in sansa enriching his character. all the men close to sansa have some sort of sexual interest in her so this doesn't make him special to me. perhaps the fact that he has many opportunities to act on it but doesn't is something that makes him a more interesting character for me but not his interest in her. i would say the erotic interest of sansa is highly unusual and therefore more interesting.

[Woman of War]

very interesting. and yes, i agree, it is a "healthier" place to start a relationship at than after demands being placed upon you with a knife at your throat.

and it's funny that you mention sansa's previous "near rape" situation since many of the posters said the same thing. they felt that having sandor place her in such a situation after having just rescued her from it would have been strange.

i'm not sure I agree about sandor's erotic interest in sansa enriching his character. all the men close to sansa have some sort of sexual interest in her so this doesn't make him special to me. perhaps the fact that he has many opportunities to act on it but doesn't is something that makes him a more interesting character for me but not his interest in her. i would say the erotic interest of sansa is highly unusual and therefore more interesting.

I did not mean "enriching" in a positive manner, as in "making him better". I meant it in a purely literature sense, like leading the character into a conflict Martin writes about with sensitivity, thus giving the readers an interesting side story arch.. No, Sandor is not special here, Sansa, even if she is mentally nearly a child, attracts erotic attention everywhere. But I am sure that Sandor himself knows about the creepiness of his desire and is repulsed by it while wanting to protect the child Sansa. And this conflict enriches his character as literary invention.

Edit: HBO Sansa does not strike me as nearly a child at all, she is seventeen and absolutely looks her age, she could as well be twenty, so erotic attention is not creepy at all. And I like the HBO interpretation of Sansa better than book Sansa.

So it is really interesting that D&D chose to downplay the erotic interest of Sandor in Sansa since it would have been less awkward, especially whe leaving out the rapey aspects. This might be a hint for future story development.

[Longspear Ryk]

love was always a huge part of the story....specially in targaryon history....

"the things that love you usually kill you" didnt the old bear say something like that to Jon?

[six]

I think that Stannis/Mel was just sex. I do not believe any of them actually loved each other. Mel needs Stannis to perform her creepy tricks and because she is convinced he is the saviour of the world. I am on the side of the theory that she has him under some sort of a spell to keep him under control.

Also, Stavos. It is known. :P

I would totally hate it if they did that, that relationship can't become romantic because it will change the whole dynamic/plot! Don't do it! :P

Re Sansa/Sandor: I thought Sophie still looked very young last season, but she looks older now (obviously). Regardless of her real age and way she looks, she still very much acted like a child who just had her first period, so making a relationship with a 40 something Sandor romantic would have been awkward to say the least. Also, it would undermine the creepiness of Littlefinger's attraction towards her.

[jons nissa]

Edit: HBO Sansa does not strike me as nearly a child at all, she is seventeen and absolutely looks her age, she could as well be twenty, so erotic attention is not creepy at all. And I like the HBO interpretation of Sansa better than book Sansa.

So it is really interesting that D&D chose to downplay the erotic interest of Sandor in Sansa since it would have been less awkward, especially whe leaving out the rapey aspects. This might be a hint for future story development.

yes, sansa does not look like a child now but she definitely looked very very young during season 1 so i can understand why d&d would shy away from any erotic nuances. however, you are right, she looks very much like a young lady now and so her story will need to be modified somewhat. she doesn't look like someone who shouldn't have sex on her wedding night and is even older on the show than the books so i wonder what reason they will come up with for the lack of consummation.

i think a lot of sansan fans are wondering the same thing as you are about the lack of "interest" on sandor's part. i am very eager to see where this goes.

eta:

Also, it would undermine the creepiness of Littlefinger's attraction towards her.

i'm not sure that it would. sandor's interest in sansa certainly doesn't undermine the creepiness of littlefinger's interest in her in the books.

[six]

In the books Sansa is younger, but so is Sandor. I think an age difference between a 14 year old girl and a 40 year old man like in the show, it's much harder to swallow.

I honestly don't remember how old is Littlefinger in the books, but he's certainly older than Sandor.