How would you rate episode 306?

[The Monkey]

Well, no one gets hung, there is plenty of circumstantial evidence against the "teenage" soldier and the brotherhood is currently not under the leadership of Lady Stoneheart but of Lord Beric, so what was your point again?

They they weren't a highly moral group of people in the novels either, if they volunteered to follow Lady Stoneheart, so that they would give up Gendry isn't that strange.

[Ran]

... but the reason that they let sold Gendry out was because Gendry is replacing Edric Storm in the show.

The show needs Gendry to fill the Edric role, this is true. This does not mean the BwB had to sell him out, however. They could have had Melisandre tell him his parentage and convinced him that he should join his uncle. She could have seduced him. She could have found some other way to convince him. Basically, they could have done it another way, without too much more or less dialog than they had in the version in the show. They didn't, though.

They they weren't a highly moral group of people in the novels either, if they volunteered to follow Lady Stoneheart, so that they would give up Gendry isn't that strange.

Nonsense. Thoros even remarks how they've fallen since they lost Beric:

"We were king's men when we began," the man told her, "but king's men must have a king, and we have none. We were brothers too, but now our brotherhood is broken. I do not know who we are, if truth be told, nor where we might be going. I only know the road is dark. The fires have not shown me what lies at its end."

I mean, now, that detail isn't really going to fly in the show. It's not important, I guess, but... it adds something, to tone and theme, if they ever revisit the BwB. Maybe the whole point is that they never are, and so it doesn't really matter how they depict them and so on.

Edited May 8, 2013 by Ran

[Greywolf2375]

To me this has been the weakest episode of the season so far - which still puts it above most of what is on TV, but compared to the other episodes fell short.

What I liked:

- Jaime & Brienne: they just continue to build on a great dynamic between the two

- Tywin and Olenna: two strong characters and in this case they didn't have to dumb one down to interact with the other

- the Wall/Climb: thought it portrayed it well, I do wish they had Jon think/say to himself "The Wall defends itself" though it maybe it comes out next week

- the Bastard: Poor Theon. Done well, I just hope they don't go overboard on what they do feel the need to show from the standpoint of the torture.

What I didn't like:

- the picnic in the forest: Sam and Gilly are literally on the run from the NW who just murdered Mormont and Craster as well as the undead army, yet can have a sit down sing along? What made it powerful in the book (not that it has to be an exact reproduction) was the sense of urgency and fear. None of that was around. When we do get Sam the Slayer, considering the two of them just ran, how is it going to really be plausible that his brothers can find them? Deus ex Ghostmachina? the hamfisted way the dagger was inserted made the scene even clumsier.

- Gendry/Melisandre's GPS: While Davos can still oppose the idea of using Gendry to do her deeds, Gendry does not have innocence of Edric and does not have the personal connection with Stannis that Edric did. Can it still work? Yeah - the goal being she needs Kings blood. Does it work as well? Not in my opinion. Then the issue that the messages that are received in the flames are always for interpretation – the flames are right, but both Mel and Thoros have said they are flawed in reading them. Yet somehow she is able to ride straight to where they are in, what seems like, ½ an hour.

- Tyrell heir: Not having Garlan or Willas and having Loras be the heir to me is a loss. Having another character be named and be offscreen is not an issue but having the Tyrells be backed into a corner because of the removal of character names is. If Loras is named to the KG then the one generation away the heir to Highgarden is a Baratheon/Lannister. Given what QoT said, she basically is stating she knows the Baratheon children are Lannister. If he is not named to the KG, then a reason to not have he and Cersei marry needs to be created.

-Varys/LF: while I love seeing these two spar against each other, the feel of the series when they do these gets to be almost like Saved by the Bell when Zack would call timeout and speak to the audience.

No overall opinion: Ros being killed. I’m glad she is of f the show, I think the addition of that character was unnecessary given the number of characters that pre-existed and could have been used in the places she was. Do I care it happened? No. It does reinforce Joffreys personality, to this point he had not personally killed someone so – unless there is another player in the room we didn’t see – he now is individually a murderer.

[Paul Blackfyre]

A good episode. I give it a 7. But, obviously, a 7 in this series is like a 10 in most of the others.

[PetyrPunkinhead]

Daaaaamn. I woudln't have thought this episode would've been so polarizing in terms of ratings. I loved it. I loved the departures from the book and thought they were all done well and in the spirit of the SOIAF series and remained true to the characters. It seems some people just want a visual adaptation of the novels, but this is it's own beast. It's a highly loyal beast tot he source material, but as a book reader I welcome the type of character moments and surprises this episode had.

10/10

[poggo]

I dont know, why people complain so much. :P It was a good episode, even though, it wasnt stellar.

And the killing of ros was very important.

They dont want to tell us, that Joffrey is an evil person. Everyone knows. They want to tell us, that he *still* is a danger to everyone around him and the realm.

After all, people might have begun to think, that Margaery has some sort of controll of him.

Edited May 9, 2013 by poggo

[Ser Ilyn's Tongue]

Everyone seems a bit down about this episode but I really enjoyed it! The deviations from the book all fit neatly, there was some good comedy, a shocking death and the scene on top of the Wall looked amazing. Nice soundtrack too.

I give it an easy 8.

[Joyful Union]

Nonsense. Thoros even remarks how they've fallen since they lost Beric:

Not nonsense at all, because Thoros is kind of biased on the subject, and is not likely to admit that the Brotherhood weren't that honorable.

[Ran]

You can't read the presentation of the brotherhood and its ideals in ASoS, and then see where they are in AFfC, and pretend that they haven't changed. They changed massively. I'm not sure what else to say about it. It's all quite clear in the books. Just consider how much scarier Lem gets, and notice that the brotherhood is broken, with part of the group apparently with Edric Dayne and the other part with Lady Stoneheart. Almost certainly due to the philosophical differences between those who wanted to adhere to Beric's pursuit of justice and those who wanted vengeance. (This dichotomy is why Arya's sojourn in Harrenhal last year was a screw up, actually.) Thoros is with Stoneheart presumably because she's resurrected and he feels some responsibility or some purpose in remaining around, but it's pretty clear that he's not in moral agreement with what she commands them to do, unlike with Beric.

Edited May 9, 2013 by Ran

[PatrickStormborn]

Although I'm not currently against the Gendry/Edric switch, it doesn't really make sense that the Brotherhood would exchange Gendry - who's pretty valuable as a blacksmith - for a few bags of gold.

[FuriousGeorge]

Although I'm not currently against the Gendry/Edric switch, it doesn't really make sense that the Brotherhood would exchange Gendry - who's pretty valuable as a blacksmith - for a few bags of gold.

Ummm yes it does. BWB is suffering from massive short term liquidity issues. Gendry is a useful asset but they cannot chop him up and sell him for weapons, armor, food, shelter, repairs etc etc. And did you see how fat those bags of gold were?! And have you seen the amount of things one dragon can buy you in Westeros?!?!

[PatrickStormborn]

Ummm yes it does. BWB is suffering from massive short term liquidity issues. Gendry is a useful asset but they cannot chop him up and sell him for weapons, armor, food, shelter, repairs etc etc. And did you see how fat those bags of gold were?! And have you seen the amount of things one dragon can buy you in Westeros?!?!

But Gendry as a blacksmith is still valuable in the long-term. The Brotherhood are about to ransom Arya (who would be worth more gold than Gendry), so surely they should be thinking about his long-term benefit?

And then there's the problem of Stannis having extra gold to throw around... If he has gold, why not hire sellswords?

[The Mondrian Oak]

But Gendry as a blacksmith is still valuable in the long-term. The Brotherhood are about to ransom Arya (who would be worth more gold than Gendry), so surely they should be thinking about his long-term benefit?

And then there's the problem of Stannis having extra gold to throw around... If he has gold, why not hire sellswords?

In the show, the BwB are firm believers in the Lord of Light (if you recall, Beric told the Hound "I've been reborn in the light of the one true God", and everyone was chanting "Lord of Light defend us" before the trial by combat). Melisandre told Beric and Thoros R'hllor needed Gendry, as confirmed by Beric when he told Arya "We serve the Lord of Light, the Lord of Light needs him". They followed their God's orders, and still earned a bit of money by doing so.

Edited May 9, 2013 by The Mondrian Oak

[FuriousGeorge]

But Gendry as a blacksmith is still valuable in the long-term. The Brotherhood are about to ransom Arya (who would be worth more gold than Gendry), so surely they should be thinking about his long-term benefit? - I would imagine that getting an immediate price is worth so much more to BWB than the long term value of a hostage/blacksmith because of how crazy Westeros is at that time. They know a million things can happen before they can ransom Arya.

And then there's the problem of Stannis having extra gold to throw around... If he has gold, why not hire sellswords? Cannot argue with this

[FuriousGeorge]

In the show, the BwB are firm believers in the Lord of Light (if you recall, Beric told the Hound "I've been reborn in the light of the one true God", and everyone was chanting "Lord of Light defend us" before the trial by combat). Melisandre told Beric and Thoros R'hllor needed Gendry, as confirmed by Beric when he told Arya "We serve the Lord of Light, the Lord of Light needs him". They followed their God's orders, and still earned a bit of money by doing it.

NOOOOO WAY! This is certainly one interpretation but I think we are supposed to think that it is 99% for material reasons and then maybe 1% religious. These figures are bullshit of course but that is how I thought of it.

[The Mondrian Oak]

NOOOOO WAY! This is certainly one interpretation but I think we are supposed to think that it is 99% for material reasons and then maybe 1% religious. These figures are bullshit of course but that is how I thought of it.

I disagree. The show has clearly established that the BwB is much more religion-bound than in the books. Beric even told Melisandre "He (R'hllor) sent you to us for a reason". And the only explanation he gave Arya was "We serve the Lord of Light, the Lord of Light needs him".

I think the show needed to depict the BwB as a more feverishly religious group because, as many pointed out, its book counterpart would have NEVER sold an innocent "commoner". The only reason for them to do it needed to be something extraordinary, even stronger than their morals: the show has opted for religion.

Edited May 9, 2013 by The Mondrian Oak

[FuriousGeorge]

I disagree. The show has clearly established that the BwB is much more religion-bound than in the books. Beric even told Melisandre "He (R'hllor) sent you to us for a reason". And the only explanation he gave Arya was "We serve the Lord of Light, the Lord of Light needs him".

I will have to watch it again to see how it all went down but on first watching it felt like it was mainly about the gold.

[poggo]

I think it makes sense.

It isnt about the gold.

Its most of all because the "lord of light" demands it. (And if he brings you back to life 6 times, its hard to be a no-beleiver)

If someone would have just come there and were like: "Here some gold. Now give me Gendry.", then the anwer would have been: "F*** off." or worse.

But in that situation, the gold was more to sweeten the deal.

And even then, they didnt really like it.

(Its more like Arya thinks its just about the gold)

Edited May 9, 2013 by poggo

[The Mondrian Oak]

I will have to watch it again to see how it all went down but on first watching it felt like it was mainly about the gold.

I'm sorry, I edited my message, thought you may be interested in the second part:

I think the show needed to depict the BwB as a more feverishly religious group because, as many pointed out, its book counterpart would have NEVER sold an innocent "commoner". The only reason for them to do it needed to be something extraordinary, even stronger than their morals: the show has opted for religion.

[shiola]

In the show, the BwB are firm believers in the Lord of Light (if you recall, Beric told the Hound "I've been reborn in the light of the one true God", and everyone was chanting "Lord of Light defend us" before the trial by combat). Melisandre told Beric and Thoros R'hllor needed Gendry, as confirmed by Beric when he told Arya "We serve the Lord of Light, the Lord of Light needs him". They followed their God's orders, and still earned a bit of money by doing so.

That was my thought too. The scene between Thoros, Mel, and Beric set it up pretty well.