[Book Spoilers] So The Boy Won....

[The Mondrian Oak]

A bit of a gruesome question but why was Theon shouting "cut it off" when Ramsey was flaying him?

I thought the reason behind that was how Ramsey would flay the subjects fingers and leave them in agony until they begged him to amputate the finger. Did the writers not understand this or am I missing something.

Ramsay told him a minute earlier "I win the game if you beg me to cut your finger off"...

[I'll pay the iron price]

Great scene with the dastardly evil Ramsay.

I hated book Theon but take pity on the TV Theon, he was a stupid bugger but didnt deserve that kind of torture!

[the hound of sansa]

Ramsay's best lines: - i win!!

- do i look like a fucking Umber to you?

[TomBadgerlock]

How dumb is Theon that he couldn't even figure out that the family that takes satisfaction and pride in flaying people were the ones responsible for...flaying him?

[Hiram McDrogon]

I certainly hope so, but I don't think we can take "I'll kill that horn-blowing cunt" as a 100% guarantee of what will happen. :lol:

Hey! Remember back in season 1, when Ned told Jon that he'd tell him about his mother when he came back! That proves Ned is still alive! Damn, now I've been spoiled.

[I'll pay the iron price]

How dumb is Theon that he couldn't even figure out that the family that takes satisfaction and pride in flaying people were the ones responsible for...flaying him?

To be fair, I doubt anyone would be capable of thinking straight under such circumstances!

[White Walker Texas Ranger]

A couple of reasons. It's just not acceptable in a TV show to have a major character disappear for two complete seasons. Apart from anything else, it's not practical - if they're going to keep Alfie Allen on contract then they need to give him screen time, and if they release him from contract they can't guarantee they'll get him back for season 5.

Secondly, there's the "show don't tell" rule. This is more important in a medium like TV than in books, where it's still kind of important, because we don't get the interior monologues and private thoughts and memories of a character to inform what's going on. It's dramatically more effective to show things on screen rather than just talk about them after they happen. On some occasions (major battle scenes, etc.) the budget may preclude it, but that doesn't apply here.

Third, it introduces Ramsay as a villain at an appropriate stage. We lose a lot of villains throughout next season and it's better to start building up a replacement now. Again, this is something of a show-don't-tell too: in the books we hear about Ramsay quite a while before he actually appears, which works ok on paper. Here, although he's been mentioned, the viewers really need to see him to cement him in their minds.

As for the slow reveal, well I'd have thought that's obvious. Apart from introducing tension and mystery - laudable in and of themselves, I'd have thought - it also delays the big "Boltons are evil" reveal until the Red Wedding when it's finally plain for all to see. Revealing Ramsay's identity right now would telegraph Roose's betrayal too heavily.

Apart from anything else, though, I think it's worth remembering that the Theon/Ramsay relationship in the book was actually established in a similar way - a long relationship between Theon and a vicious bastard whose actual identity was unknown, only for it to be revealed at a dramatic moment that he was in fact Ramsay. This has just shifted that a little later because the show needs some Theon scenes this season. Is the way the show is handling it any worse than the way the book did? In some ways I think it's actually a little better - I thought the reveal in the book was horribly botched.

If they end up going through the Reek plotline (3 years is a long time), Theon will have been so transformed that they don't really need Alfie Allen, though it obviously be preferable to have him.

Obviously "show, don't tell" is great guiding principle for writing, but you can make an exception for torture. You can establish the nature of an abusive relationship without flashing back to every time the man beats the women.

But that's just why the Theon scenes don't have to be there. The reason they shouldn't is that for anybody who hasn't read the books, there's going ot be two or more years of Theon tied to a cross, screaming, without any apparent payoff. That's just bad tv.

[I'll pay the iron price]

If they end up going through the Reek plotline (3 years is a long time), Theon will have been so transformed that they don't really need Alfie Allen, though it obviously be preferable to have him.

Obviously "show, don't tell" is great guiding principle for writing, but you can make an exception for torture. You can establish the nature of an abusive relationship without flashing back to every time the man beats the women.

But that's just why the Theon scenes don't have to be there. The reason they shouldn't is that for anybody who hasn't read the books, there's going ot be two or more years of Theon tied to a cross, screaming, without any apparent payoff. That's just bad tv.

Unless they show Ramsay hunting women with dogs and his Reek!

['96Buck]

A bit of a gruesome question but why was Theon shouting "cut it off" when Ramsey was flaying him?

I thought the reason behind that was how Ramsey would flay the subjects fingers and leave them in agony until they begged him to amputate the finger. Did the writers not understand this or am I missing something.

Since we don't have days to watch Theon's exposed flesh dessicate or putrefy, D&D just accelerated the timeline and assume that the pain threshhold for which amputation seems like the preferable course comes in a matter of minutes, not days. For 99.9999999999999% of viewers, we don't know that's "wrong", and my pity goes out to the remnant. IDK if GRRM had it right initially or not, and hope never to find out. So it's understood, and the underlying POINT is retained, just the mechanics change.

['96Buck]

If they end up going through the Reek plotline (3 years is a long time), Theon will have been so transformed that they don't really need Alfie Allen, though it obviously be preferable to have him.

Obviously "show, don't tell" is great guiding principle for writing, but you can make an exception for torture. You can establish the nature of an abusive relationship without flashing back to every time the man beats the women.

But that's just why the Theon scenes don't have to be there. The reason they shouldn't is that for anybody who hasn't read the books, there's going ot be two or more years of Theon tied to a cross, screaming, without any apparent payoff. That's just bad tv.

Real world, they have to give the actor time, this season, to keep him committed to the show, and there's nothing ELSE he can be doing but getting tortured. RW is going to be this season, so next season will need Theon, already broken, in Winterfell as the Boltons try to consolidate power.

A transformation as radical as Prince Theon - > Reek demands being shown for it to carry weight with the audience, IMO. On TV, just saying "yeah, he was tortured and now he's broken" will not suffice, IMO.

[Cas Stark]

Since we don't have days to watch Theon's exposed flesh dessicate or putrefy, D&D just accelerated the timeline and assume that the pain threshhold for which amputation seems like the preferable course comes in a matter of minutes, not days. For 99.9999999999999% of viewers, we don't know that's "wrong", and my pity goes out to the remnant. IDK if GRRM had it right initially or not, and hope never to find out. So it's understood, and the underlying POINT is retained, just the mechanics change.

Yeah, but, again, it lacks basic logic....especially since we just saw Jamie's hand amputated...there is no reason to believe that having your finger cut off is immediately less painful than having the skin cut off in a matter of minutes, its dumb, why would anyone think this makes sense, just on the face of it? It would have been better if next week had started w/Theon asking to have his finger amputated.

[Alester Florent]

Yeah, but, again, it lacks basic logic....especially since we just saw Jamie's hand amputated...there is no reason to believe that having your finger cut off is immediately less painful than having the skin cut off in a matter of minutes, its dumb, why would anyone think this makes sense, just on the face of it? It would have been better if next week had started w/Theon asking to have his finger amputated.

I imagine getting your flesh torn off is pretty painful, and Theon's not used to it yet, so cried out to have the finger cut off almost immediately. As he starts to run out of fingers and toes, and can brace himself more for the pain of the flaying, he can probably hold out longer, up to the point of several hours, even days. It doesn't bother me either way, but if for some reason it's troubling you that might serve as an explanation.

[buckfosto]

Obviously "show, don't tell" is great guiding principle for writing, but you can make an exception for torture. You can establish the nature of an abusive relationship without flashing back to every time the man beats the women.

But that's just why the Theon scenes don't have to be there. The reason they shouldn't is that for anybody who hasn't read the books, there's going ot be two or more years of Theon tied to a cross, screaming, without any apparent payoff. That's just bad tv.

I agree with this. It looks like next episode, based on the preview he might lose "that other thing". I think it's been said that Theon is in like 2 more episodes. The 10th episode of the season seems most likely be the reveal as I think the RW is going to be all self contained like Blackwater was (I believe I read an interview with Bryan Cogman where he said that).

Show, don't tell is definitely a basic tenet of screenwriting. But that doesn't mean "show all of it". There is something to be said for leaving stuff to the imagination. They showed his potential for brutality and showed the nature of their relationship. I can see next season starting Theon's ADWD storyline with him in the dungeon. You don't need to show every time he's tortured or even a lot of it, too much becomes desensitizing and takes away the impact. If you, as a viewer, know what Ramsay is capable of and how he's treated Theon and then you go dark on it for awhile and THEN come back to him as Reek it lets the audience fill the space themselves with stuff probably way more horrific than they could ever show. "What the hell did he do to him?!?!" You can't show him gradually become Reek because the impact is lost. Not unlike when you have a friend that you see all the time that loses a good deal of weight. You don't notice it as much as the person that hasn't seen him/her in a year.

[Kasrith]

i find it odd that theon failed to guess where he was being held, really. growing up in the north, he should not only know how the bolton sigil looks, but he should also have heard rumors about their tradition of flaying people (since ned had to outlaw it).

Now he is tied to an x-shaped cross, having his finger flayed. he should be able to put 2 and 2 togheter even in such a stressful situation,

The stress is the only justification for it I can find... In the last one, when he was asking for water, he could barely speak. Between the starvation/dehydration and sleep depravity, I can see how he isn't thinking straight. Of course, they had to butcher that explanation with the Jeopardy bit. Oh well

[Dove]

That's definitely it. Dude's been tortured, slung up on a cross, has had no sleep, no water, probably no food for days (weeks?). He's not exactly gonna be on the ball, I doubt anyone would be.

Also I think they're probably front-loading the scenes of torture and abuse so it really instills in viewers that this is Theon's life now, constant pain and misery. That way they can either go relatively dark on this storyline next season and give Theon maybe 1-2 scenes tops before he's relevant again (but he'll still be in people's minds because they'll remember these early glimpses into his fucked-up treatment), or write new material like the failed Kyra escape or what have you. Surely the writers realize that even the most horrific imagery loses its impact if it becomes repetitive.

[bobbybuilderton]

You know, I realized that we might be jumping to conclusions about Theon figuring it out. Maybe he'll figure it out next episode and holds on to some weird hope that he will be let go if he guesses right. So he says he figured out who he is. He says "you're Bolton's bastard" and he goes insane and decides he's going to castrate him. Kind of similar thinking to the reason Jon couldn't have sex with Ros, but way more twisted. He hates bastards or something and Theon is well known for his "debauchery," so he decides to flay him there or something worse.

Basically, it's possible that after having time to think about it, Theon realizes who is holding him. You could even have him admit that his father sent him to take Winterfell back from Theon. 1)TV only viewers may not believe him because he's lied before. 2)It makes Bolton even more ambiguous because he's giving away Jaime, but he's sending Brienne back, but his son has Theon, but he's not giving Theon to Robb. Does he know his son has Theon? Etc etc. Where do his loyalties lie?

[wood_dat_aye_could]

Personally I think the the Ramsay scenes are great. My only problem is how much time is being dedicated to this story arc. If the shows were an extra half hour long, than I wouldnt have an issue. Other than the takeover at Astapor Dany has been MIA, Bran's story is going nowhere, are we even going to get "the tourney at Harrenhal" story from Jojen? Probably not.. I wanted to see Robb actually swing a sword (other than the Karstark debacle) before his fate at the RW even if thats a deviation from the books. Jon scenes are usually relatively shorter than need be, etc, etc.

So much time to spend on this arc, could have cut it two two really good scenes (including the one we just saw, because that WAS an excellent scene)

But I guess I cant complain too much... the Ramsay/Theon scenes are heaps better than anything with Sansa or Shae, which is abundant this season.

Aside: WHAT in seven hells did Ros have to do with ANYTHING at this point? I thought she was created as a sort of Jeyne Poole, then I thought "OK she a mole for Varys now", but now? Im baffled by how utterly useless was she in the end.

[SynthFG]

This Has to Happen now,

Remember Roose will start heading home early next season along with fArya and Reek will need to convince the Iron Born to surrender Moat Callen,

So the transformation, including hunts and the rest of the missing bits needs to be mostly done by the end of this series

We can then open Theons story next season, somewhere around episode 3 with the rat feast and the 2 Walders

I'd also expect Roose to hand over Theons finger skin at some point in episode 8 or early in 9 along with the news that Bran and Rikon are defiantly dead (prompting Rob to name JS his Heir)

[YTDN]

The problem with moving Theon's ADWD story ahead is it has to sync up with Jon Snow and Stannis' stories. Stannis won't be at the Wall until the end of next season, and Davos can't go off to visit Manderly until then. fArya's wedding can't happen without Manderly present (or at least, if the specualtion about the Battle of Ice is true, Manderly has to be at Winterfell for it). So Theon's story can't be brought ahead too much, or we'll just have him spinning wheels later on in his storyline.

This all depends on how D&D decide to adapt AFFC/ADWD, and I can't even begin to predict how they're going to structure that. I think they've said in interviews that they're not going to bring much forward to Season 4, probably because the ASOS endings are so good, and it'll mess up the syncing of plots. I still think that the Kingsmoot is the only plot they're going to move forward wholesale, and maybe the first chapters of various characters AFFC/ADWD plots (probably the Cersei/Brienne/Reek chapters) to act as hooks for Season 5.

[The_Lone_Direwolf]

Aside: WHAT in seven hells did Ros have to do with ANYTHING at this point? I thought she was created as a sort of Jeyne Poole, then I thought "OK she a mole for Varys now", but now? Im baffled by how utterly useless was she in the end.

I think the death of Ros will prove to be anything but useless. Apart from reminding the audience how bat shit psycho Joffery is, that Cersei can't control him and LF will do anything on his rise to power, I think it will also lead to Tywin reining him in ("Perhaps you should stop him doing what he likes...". "I will"...) and will be used by Tyrion as a cover to further protect Shae now that people think his whore lover is dead. This will also lead to a motive in Tyrion's trial for the events of the PW.

But to Ramsey (loving these scenes) I think the reveal of his parentage might be AT the RW. Just before the shit hits the fan Bolton presents a gift for your Grace, the skin of Theon Greyjoy (which we saw Ramsey remove). As the unsullied viewer and Robb are thinking 'WTF!?!" the Rains of Castamere starts playing and it kicks off before anyone knows what is going on. Then Jamie Lannister will send his regards.