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(Book Spoilers) The whitewashing of Cersei

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I think in the show they will show the simultaneous meltdowns of 2 mothers of kings, both who lost their sons at weddings.

Both Cersei and UnCat become paranoid, violent, and distrustful after the purple and red weddings. I think the writers will try to show their deterioration almost in parallel.

Cersei has to be softened up a bit to make the transition more shocking.

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I think in the show they will show the simultaneous meltdowns of 2 mothers of kings, both who lost their sons at weddings.

Both Cersei and UnCat become paranoid, violent, and distrustful after the purple and red weddings. I think the writers will try to show their deterioration almost in parallel.

Cersei has to be softened up a bit to make the transition more shocking.

Catelyn doesn't deserve to be derailed into being a parallel to Cersei, seeing how she was actually a decent and smart person while Cersei was an idiotic and vile person.

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I think it's going to be so much nicer with Cersei going more insane with real reasons and not the stupid prophecy, her paranoia of the tyrells, her grief over joff's death. much less a cartoon villain, i can't wait for cersei's descent into madness in the show.

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Catelyn doesn't deserve to be derailed into being a parallel to Cersei, seeing how she was actually a decent and smart person while Cersei was an idiotic and vile person.

Cat loses all of that decency when she's resurrected. Sort of the price you pay. Beric becomes crazily obsessed with winning the country back for the smallfolk and Cat becomes crazily obsessed with vengeance.

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Yeah well, it's my opinion and I'm not going to change it to crowd-please. You're also very free to stay out of the topic if it bothers you.

Thing is, I don't believe anything will come of it. Loras will join the Kingsguard.

Who said I was bothered? I merely find it unnecessary and a little laughable.

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Cat loses all of that decency when she's resurrected. Sort of the price you pay. Beric becomes crazily obsessed with winning the country back for the smallfolk and Cat becomes crazily obsessed with vengeance.

That is what makes her tragic, through I disagree that she doesn't still care for the smallfolk she did build that orphanage.

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I just hope they leave Cercei's prophecy out of the show. I know it's integral to her character, but that was GRMM's worst bit of writing. This story doesn't need more prophecies, and it certainly doesn't need a catch-all explanation for a character's actions. Cercei going mad because her son and father have been assassinated by Tyrion seems credible to me, we know she's already an unhinged person, she's just less extreme about it than in the books.

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I just hope they leave Cercei's prophecy out of the show. I know it's integral to her character, but that was GRMM's worst bit of writing. This story doesn't need more prophecies, and it certainly doesn't need a catch-all explanation for a character's actions. Cercei going mad because her son and father have been assassinated by Tyrion seems credible to me, we know she's already an unhinged person, she's just less extreme about it than in the books.

I SO AGREE.

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She didn't agree to his marriage. Tywin was about to write up the wedding contract when the QoT broke his quill. He will now be named to the Kingsguard. Which is also why it doesn't matter that Tyrion told Sansa about their betroval. With Loras (the only Tyrell male and heir in the TV series) out of the picture, the Tyrells can't do anything about it anyway.

Twyin was on the point of drawing up an order drafting Loras into the Kingsguard, not starting to write a wedding contract. He specifically said, "shall I start writing the order" when he got the quill.

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I'll take the foxy killer-queen over Headey's downtrodden wife routine any day of the week, ta very much.

Thank you, its almost poster suicide to talk about Headey's weak portrayal of Cersei on here. She's terrible.

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TBH, after two readings of the series I hardly remember Cersei's prophesy. I do have a bit of a blind spot for paying close attention to prophesy though.

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I wasn't a fan of Lena Headey during S1 but she's grown on me at this point, and in fact I find her rendition of the character more intriguing than the one in the novels.

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Totally get where OP is coming from, but at the same time (call it my projection, if you want), I don't find Lena Headey's portrayal of Cersei to be too different from my interpretation of her in the books. Rather, I suppose I find myself sympathizing with TV Cersei for many of the same reasons that I sympathize with book Cersei, who I've always seen as a character similar to Arya in a lot of ways, but forced unwillingly into the role of Sansa by her father's conservatism. I always understood that Cersei would have preferred the man's role (this is spoken to in the books and in the show), but unlike Arya, she was refused a sword, an opinion, or any sense of control over her future. Having always viewed Cersei's central conflict as being this difficulty reconciling femininity with strength (just as Arya does), I have not been overly concerned with the TV portrayal, because I find that it has maintained the often contradictory nature of that internal struggle (in fact, I would say this season has been very good at showing this, particularly the last two or three episodes where you have seen corresponding interactions with Olenna and Tywin).

As for the lack of agency that as been mentioned, I admit to having been bothered about Joffrey being credited with the murder of Robert's bastards, though I have to say that it is more my issue with the character development of Joffrey, who I feel has been at times too evil (season 2 had some choice scenes) and then remarkably inconsistent this season. Regarding the perceived pawning off of the attempt to assassinate Tyrion, I was given the impression from the episode that it absolutely WAS Cersei who ordered it, and that Tyrion knew it and Cersei knew that he knew it... I interpreted it as Cersei saying that it was Joffrey, with Tyrion recognizing Cersei was lying, and continuing in his usual way of berating his sister by saying "Oh, well "Joffrey" shouldn't have done that, "Joffrey" should have known that that was a stupid idea." Is that not a game of implication that they have played on previous occasions?

You also mentioned that when you finally got a Cersei POV chapter, the inside of her head was much to the effect of what you had expected; I differ from you here. The impression I had built up of Cersei from out side perspectives tended towards the idea of her being the "Big Bad"; I was initially very disappointed when I got to book four and saw what a mess she was in reality. But at the same time, there are very "traumatic" things that happen to the character in the immediate lead up and during her first POV chapters, that very realistically would have contributed to her book four persona being drastically different from how she was previously, namely that she has lost her entire family and power foundation in one way or another almost at once (Joffrey is dead, Tywin is dead, Tyrion supposedly killed them both and is gone, Jaime has lost the swordhand that defined him).

I think the major difficultly is that we don't currently have much reference for what is actually going on with Cersei prior to book four in terms of what her motivations for doing certain things are. Because we only get her POV after she has been basically striped of everything she had previously depended on for power, the perception we have based on that should necessarily be read warily, just as we need to be careful with the first three books, where our understanding of her is polarized in the opposite direction in that it is entirely outside-looking-in, and she is also in a relatively "safe" power position. I am expecting Cersei to have another "character flip" in book six however, which will hopefully shed some more light on what was going on earlier in the series.

Either way, I haven't yet found a change that was incompatible with my own understanding of Cersei, which appears to be running slightly askew of your own, Door. Actually, there seems to be quite a variety of interpretations of the character on the thread, which is making me wonder about both how ambiguously the character is written, as well as how far all the posters have read in the series... Has everyone finished Dance?

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How does it change it for the better? Honest question.

I think that Cersei and Tyrion are more believable characters in the show. It is easier for viewers to relate with these characters now and we will be able to sympathize with them more as they spiral out of control in the later seasons.

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I think that Cersei and Tyrion are more believable characters in the show. It is easier for viewers to relate with these characters now and we will be able to sympathize with them more as they spiral out of control in the later seasons.

How are they more believable characters? Tyrion is basically an one dimensional hero character that is only motivated by his nobleness and honor, while all not even suffering the flaws of Ned's naivete because he is also politically intelligent and capable.

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Thank you, its almost poster suicide to talk about Headey's weak portrayal of Cersei on here. She's terrible.

Go rewatch Blackwater again and again and again, and think about how wrong you are.

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Well, let me give a quote, even if this is a TV show topic:

What exactly do you think happened that night??

Nothing based on the next conversation Tyrion had with Illyrio.

"If I had wanted a girl I would have asked."

Tyrion is acting like a jerk but his intent is never to have sex with that one, only to make her feeel uncomfortable. Of course he later sleeps with the slex slave near Volantis, but not Illyrio's.

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I think it's going to be so much nicer with Cersei going more insane with real reasons and not the stupid prophecy, her paranoia of the tyrells, her grief over joff's death. much less a cartoon villain, i can't wait for cersei's descent into madness in the show.

I totally agree. As it stands in the books I have little to no sympathy for Cersei seeing as she killed her friend when she was a girl. She was a cartoon villain. Everyone will be able to see and understand her descent now. There is plenty of time for her to show her strength and desire for power.

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How are they more believable characters? Tyrion is basically an one dimensional hero character that is only motivated by his nobleness and honor, while all not even suffering the flaws of Ned's naivete because he is also politically intelligent and capable.

Both he and Cersei are clearly more relatable and believable.

I don't agree about his motivations either. When does he talk of honor or nobility? He is clearly still motivated by the need to be loved, appreciated, respected, and win his father's approval. His taste for wine and whores is still a part of his character as well. Although he has been portrayed as a good guy he's not at all one dimensional.

It's the shows goal to make watchers invested in the characters. If the show was to portray all the shitty things Tyrion does a lot of viewers would view him as just another Lannister.

Now If you asked most casual readers how they felt about Tyrion mid way through ASOS, most people would say they liked him, and that he's basically a good guy in a bad family. Readers and watchers are supposed to like Tyrion at this stage. Like Cersei it makes it easier for people to sympathize as they fall into oblivion.

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That said even if they were to turn Tyrion into a good guy throughout the show, why would it really matter? Tyrion's bad deeds have very little impact on the story outside of the killing of Tywin. So you guys are mad because he isn't grey for the sake of greyness? I don't get why it's important for the show to portray that?

I understand why it behooves them to create more likable characters.

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There's still plenty of time for her to get unhinged. I'm personally enjoying this humanised Cersei as she was a bit over the top in the latter books for my taste.

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