Continued Stannis Character Assasination [Book and TV Spoilers]

[sausagekingchi]

http://www.amazon.co...TF8&docId=49161

Thanks for the link. Not so sure that means everything though. While I agree that Stannis going to the Wall was the right thing to do, that doesn't absolve him of his other sins IMO. He himself has said a good deed does not wash out the bad. Justice needs to be served and I think Stannis will pay for his sins with his life before all is said and done.

[The Drunkard]

That he has committed any sins for someone in his context to die over is where we differ, I suppose.

[DarkAndFullOfTurnips]

I think you have a point. In the books, Stannis was clearly conflicted about his brother, thinking about the fruit he never eat with him and suffering for what he did to Edric's protector just to size the kid.

On the show, I got the feeling Stannos needs Davos or else he wouldn't be conflicted at all.

What do you mean? Davos says he knows Stannis doesn't want to do it. You need only to listen to what they're saying to know that Stannis doesn't want to do this thing but he feels perhaps he has to. That is the very definition of conflict. He seeks Davos out. its not like Davos breaks out of his cell and says WAIT PERHAPS I CAN CONVINCE YOU TO BE CONFLICTED.

[Thelastactionhero]

Thanks for the link. Not so sure that means everything though. While I agree that Stannis going to the Wall was the right thing to do, that doesn't absolve him of his other sins IMO. He himself has said a good deed does not wash out the bad. Justice needs to be served and I think Stannis will pay for his sins with his life before all is said and done.

No, it doesn't absolve him of any immoral decisions he might have made, but let's honest here, a man needs to be judged on his deeds, not on what he might have done. He didn't burn Edric, so I think it's pointless to continue disputing that point. He has burned other people, but never an innocent (we can debate the Florent), and thus I don't think Stannis' crimes are as grievous as those of others in the series. He does assasinate Renly, despite whatever lack of clarity exists in his mind regarding the deed, but I think it's rather silly that people continually harp on this point. His brother stole all his bannerman and was totally fine with slaughtering him on the battlefield due to his overwhelming numbers. People talk about lack of honor here, and I think it's pretty silly. As though Stannis should just lay down and let his brother murder him in the field. There's nothing "honorable" about having a host of bannerman, led by your generals, (Renly didn't no shit about military strategy so he won't be contributing) slaughter your brother, and anyone who says otherwise is delusional. In fact, the whole point of this series is that there's a disconnect between the reality of the world and the idealsm of fuedal honor codes. Stannis doesn't strictly adhere to them, clearly, and for this reason he's something of a pragmatist. All in all Stannis is no Ned Stark, (which is why he's still in the game) but the man hasn't ever crossed the line or done anything truly evil in my book. I admire his unyielding nature, and the love he seems to bear for his daughter, however inexpressible it may be.

The immoral acts that Stannis commits are part of his character, and I think they make him more endearing in the end. I certainly am in the George R Martin camp, in that, I think the character has demonstrated that he genuinely cares about the realm and the fate of its people. After reading a Dance With Dragons I find it odd that this point is so highly contested by people who hate him. I can agree that Stannis fans like to whitewash him, same deal with those obsessed with Dany, but you have to remember that not liking a character doesn't change the source material. In the end the series isn't built on heroes and villains, but rather on individuals, beautiful and flawed in a wide variety of ways. Stannis has his faults, but in comparison to the rest of Westeros, I find him to be a man with a prickly sense of honor who's heart is in the right place.

[Mulled Wino]

Thanks for the link. Not so sure that means everything though. While I agree that Stannis going to the Wall was the right thing to do, that doesn't absolve him of his other sins IMO. He himself has said a good deed does not wash out the bad. Justice needs to be served and I think Stannis will pay for his sins with his life before all is said and done.

Like not burning Edric?

[Mulled Wino]

No, it doesn't absolve him of any immoral decisions he might have made, but let's honest here, a man needs to be judged on his deeds, not on what he might have done. He didn't burn Edric, so I think it's pointless to continue disputing that point. He has burned other people, but never an innocent (we can debate the Florent), and thus I don't think Stannis' crimes are as grievous as those of others in the series. He does assasinate Renly, despite whatever lack of clarity exists in his mind regarding the deed, but I think it's rather silly that people continually harp on this point. His brother stole all his bannerman and was totally fine with slaughtering him on the battlefield due to his overwhelming numbers. People talk about lack of honor here, and I think it's pretty silly. As though Stannis should just lay down and let his brother murder him in the field. There's nothing "honorable" about having a host of bannerman, led by your generals, (Renly didn't no shit about military strategy so he won't be contributing) slaughter your brother, and anyone who says otherwise is delusional. In fact, the whole point of this series is that there's a disconnect between the reality of the world and the idealsm of fuedal honor codes. Stannis doesn't strictly adhere to them, clearly, and for this reason he's something of a pragmatist. All in all Stannis is no Ned Stark, (which is why he's still in the game) but the man hasn't ever crossed the line or done anything truly evil in my book. I admire his unyielding nature, and the love he seems to bear for his daughter, however inexpressible it may be.

The immoral acts that Stannis commits are part of his character, and I think they make him more endearing in the end. I certainly am in the George R Martin camp, in that, I think the character has demonstrated that he genuinely cares about the realm and the fate of its people. After reading a Dance With Dragons I find it odd that this point is so highly contested by people who hate him. I can agree that Stannis fans like to whitewash him, same deal with those obsessed with Dany, but you have to remember that not liking a character doesn't change the source material. In the end the series isn't built on heroes and villains, but rather on individuals, beautiful and flawed in a wide variety of ways. Stannis has his faults, but in comparison to the rest of Westeros, I find him to be a man with a prickly sense of honor who's heart is in the right place.

Not to mention, Stannis didnt know about shadow baby #1, PER THE TEXT. Many of his haters like to say that he lied about that, which is funny to me. Why would grrm write that in if Stannis was lying about it?

Those same people caveat the hell out of Stannis raising of Davos to hand as well.

Stannis has some gigantic cojones.

[bobbybuilderton]

This is only marginally relevant, but

http://aegontargaryen.tumblr.com/post/46831571865/based-on-this-post-x-what-they-really-thought

[The GreatRon]

They have absolutely cheapened Stannis. I don't even recognize him most of the time. This pussy whipped softie whose grossed out by Leeches, I couldnt tell if he was just not interested in the leeches or grossed out by them or both, but it was terrible regardless.

The leech scene could have been so intense and awesome, instead we got awkward softcore porn with the cheap shock value of a Leech on Gendrys junk, rather than quality good acting and storytelling yet again.

Another great moment I couldn't wait to see done on screen in the crapper.

[ChromeWeasel]

They have absolutely cheapened Stannis. I don't even recognize him most of the time. This pussy whipped softie whose grossed out by Leeches, I couldnt tell if he was just not interested in the leeches or grossed out by them or both, but it was terrible regardless.

The leech scene could have been so intense and awesome, instead we got awkward softcore porn with the cheap shock value of a Leech on Gendrys junk, rather than quality good acting and storytelling yet again.

Another great moment I couldn't wait to see done on screen in the crapper.

I would have left the sex out of it too, but the scene was fine. I liked the way the leeches were used and it seemed to be a respectable ceremony. Really, if they had made a short bit, where Mel had suggested that she needed Gendry to trust her and help her cause, and then Gendry rebuffed her a bit, it would have been a better setup.

[Stannis the Wight]

This is only marginally relevant, but

http://aegontargarye...-really-thought

Hahaha

[JonCon's Red Beard]

This is only marginally relevant, but

http://aegontargarye...-really-thought

LOL, that reminded me when I was complaining that Davos wasn't in the promo posters and I completely forgot that my unsullied friends weren't supposed to know he survived.

[Frumpus]

Thanks for the link. Not so sure that means everything though. While I agree that Stannis going to the Wall was the right thing to do, that doesn't absolve him of his other sins IMO. He himself has said a good deed does not wash out the bad. Justice needs to be served and I think Stannis will pay for his sins with his life before all is said and done.

Pay for his sins? GRRM isn't writing a morality play you know.

[Draco_Dracul]

Why would he abdicate the throne if he's the rightful King? I don't think Stannis really believes Renly would be better for the realm so it's not like he believes that would even be in the best interests of Westeros. Ned chose to break his duty knowing that Stannis would not sit the throne due to his word. Stannis' duty lines up with him being King because that's what he is, at least that's what he's supposed to be. His duty to Robert was to hold Storm's End and when it was given to Renly, he didn't complain about it. That didn't really work out for him, neither did eating cats, dogs, and almost starving because he was told to hold it.

So we shouldn't be concerned with doing what's right if it happens to work in our favor?

Aemon was the rightful king, yet he gave up his right to the throne.

When Robert gave Storm's End to Renly, Stannis constantly complained about it. Additionally, not holding Storm's End was even more likely to Stannis killed than trying to hold it.

Stannis has never done what's right when it's not in is favor, the one time he could see absolutely no benefit from doing the right thing, he buggered off to Dragonstone rather than informing his king of his suspicions that his children were bastards born of incest and his Hand was murdered.

[teemo]

They have absolutely cheapened Stannis. I don't even recognize him most of the time. This pussy whipped softie whose grossed out by Leeches, I couldnt tell if he was just not interested in the leeches or grossed out by them or both, but it was terrible regardless.

The leech scene could have been so intense and awesome, instead we got awkward softcore porn with the cheap shock value of a Leech on Gendrys junk, rather than quality good acting and storytelling yet again.

Another great moment I couldn't wait to see done on screen in the crapper.

My thoughts exactly. Such a powerful scene to me in the books and the way they cheapened it seriously made it really goofy. Like laughable.

[Thelastactionhero]

Aemon was the rightful king, yet he gave up his right to the throne.

When Robert gave Storm's End to Renly, Stannis constantly complained about it. Additionally, not holding Storm's End was even more likely to Stannis killed than trying to hold it.

Stannis has never done what's right when it's not in is favor, the one time he could see absolutely no benefit from doing the right thing, he buggered off to Dragonstone rather than informing his king of his suspicions that his children were bastards born of incest and his Hand was murdered.

What a stupid criticism. He left court because despite these suspicions he didn't have the proper proof, and he knew Robert hated him and never would have taken his word for it. He did everything he could to uncover the truth with Jon Arryn, and hoped that hearing the truth from Arryn would convince Robert of the incestuous relationship between Cersei and Jamie.

[Draco_Dracul]

What a stupid criticism. He left court because despite these suspicions he didn't have the proper proof, and he knew Robert hated him and never would have taken his word for it. He did everything he could to uncover the truth with Jon Arryn, and hoped that hearing the truth from Arryn would convince Robert of the incestuous relationship between Cersei and Jamie.

And he never wrote to or tried to contact the new Hand of the King (and best friend of the king) in any way shape or form. Additionally, he only left after being denied the position of Hand and he never resigned is position as master of ships. By his duty to his elder brother, his duty to his king, and his duty to the position on the small council he should have never left King's Landing. If he's as dutiful as he claims to be, what was he doing to stop the Lannister plot to take the throne through deception (he didn't even send out the letters with those accusations until three of the five kings had already been crowned)?

[Pinkie Baelish]

They have absolutely cheapened Stannis. I don't even recognize him most of the time. This pussy whipped softie whose grossed out by Leeches, I couldnt tell if he was just not interested in the leeches or grossed out by them or both, but it was terrible regardless.

The leech scene could have been so intense and awesome, instead we got awkward softcore porn with the cheap shock value of a Leech on Gendrys junk, rather than quality good acting and storytelling yet again.

Another great moment I couldn't wait to see done on screen in the crapper.

Just rewatched the scene, and there's absolutely no indication that Stannis was disgusted by the leeches. If he was, he probably wouldn't have picked them up with you know, his bare hands.

[Pepi]

If anything, he looked somewhat sceptical and let's-get-this-over-with-ish.

[Mulled Wino]

Aemon was the rightful king, yet he gave up his right to the throne.

When Robert gave Storm's End to Renly, Stannis constantly complained about it. Additionally, not holding Storm's End was even more likely to Stannis killed than trying to hold it.

Stannis has never done what's right when it's not in is favor, the one time he could see absolutely no benefit from doing the right thing, he buggered off to Dragonstone rather than informing his king of his suspicions that his children were bastards born of incest and his Hand was murdered.

proudwing, tell me how proudwing was in his favor? You tell me why you think proudwing was included in the story.

[Pixi Penrose]

Character assasination is a strong term, but yes, I think it's getting there. I did like the scene with Davos,as it reminded the viewers of Stannis' not being without conscience, but I think show-Stannis has been dropped on the floor:-/

I always saw book-Stannis as a hard man, but one who wanted to do the right thing. I hate that he's been shown as week and totally reliant on Melisandre. He is not evil, he believes that he is the true heir,and thus MUST BE KING, cause those are the rules. He is not a lovesick puppy, who let's himself be whipped by some random red woman. I'm not saying Stannis is good and just and will be a great king. But he doesn't question himself and his goals, and he is not working for gold or ambition, but for what he sees as the only right thing to do. There are no if's or but's in Stannis' world. So yes, I think the term character assasinatin is in order.