Reviewing the Rains of Castamere

[protar]

Can we not realize the wedding is awful without Catelyn narrating this fact to us? Or is television really not capable of conveying the closeness, the jarring and headache-inducing loudness, the forced gaiety? Did Robb sound like he was in particularly good cheer when you re-read the chapter? Or was it something he was enduring because he had to?

And is the show not able to actually depict details such as Robb's fury at not being allowed to have Grey Wind with him, or Catelyn insisting that they take formal guest right? Really?

The show deliberately steered away from any and all things that provided real foreboding. They made it a happy, cheerful wedding. Not because television is not capable of doing so, surely, because anyone who's actually watched good film and television knows how capable the medium is. So either it was too hard or -- and this is my guess -- they wanted the shock value to be heightend by burying what they were going to do, fearing that a strong sense of foreboding would "ruin" the surprise.

I guess the latter rather than the former because it's of a piece with their previous steering away from foreshadowing. They often eschew it, preferring to keep viewers "in the moment", and they generally seem to feel that extremes are more dramatic than subtlety.

I do feel though that they managed to have those moments of dread though. Like when (I think) Black Walder closed off the doors to the hall and Cat looks around with that look of foreboding on her face. Or the bread and salt scene.

I agree they maybe could have focused on Cat a bit more and tried to filter the wedding through her perceptions, but again most of the northerners were having a good time at the wedding. Edmure is overjoyed at getting the only pretty Frey, Greatjon (or in the show Blackfish) is having fun getting drunk. Dacey's dancing with all the guys, Wendel's tucking into the food. I just feel that when you strip away Cat's POV the more joyous and comical aspect of the wedding we saw here was perfectly justified.

They probably could have amped up the foreboding a bit more but mostly I feel it was unnecessary. Reading the RW takes what? 10, 20 minutes. Watching it, amongst the rest of the episode takes an hour. Making things too foreboding, too ominous probably would have been hitting us over the head. I don't think they were burying it too much, (my family caught on that something bad was about to happen), but nor did they make it overtly obvious. I think the atmosphere was fine and well balanced.

That said I do have my problems with the RW. To quote myself from my review:

"My big complaint with the Red Wedding however was that if you actually look back at it, there are quite a few triumphant moments. Well I don't know that triumphant is quite the right word, but moments that don't entirely make you lose your faith in humanity. We have Summer getting to go out like the beast he is, ripping out Frey throat. We see Sandor release the Hound taking on three Frey's at once. There are the actual decent Frey's, like Olyvar and Perwyn who refuse to have any part in the slaughter. There are Robb's bannermen like Dacey and Greatjon actually managing to put up a fight, as Greatjon manages to smack someone in the face with a leg of mutton and succeed in throwing off like eight Freys whilst roaring drunk. The show has none of that. Summer is cross-bowed ignominiously in a cage, the Hound flees like a coward, decent Freys don't exist and nor do any of Robb's bannermen it seems. It's just wholesale slaughter."

So yeah that is my personal gripe with the RW.

[DaveSumm]

The Red Wedding is anything but subtle, even in the books.

Also, I imagine the reason they left out a few of the scenes that would add this foreboding (you mentioned guest right and Grey Wind being chained) is down to time. Guest right requires an explanation that they didn't really have time to give in the episode, and wasn't really important to be given before the actual scene anyway. Guest right acts to placate the readers in the books rather than to add foreboding, so it wouldn't help achieve what you wanted the episode to.

Well it's certainly harder to be as subtle with guest rites in the show, but I don't why that means not bothering with them at all. Especially since they bothered with them in Season 1 when Robb initially accepts Frey's marriage proposal. Why not a simple scene like that one, where there's a bit of anxiousness building up to the consuming of bread and salt, then visible relief when that was over? And maybe the Rat Cook story would have been too obvious in the same episode, but a quick scene earlier in the season with Bran telling it would've helped. And of course, as in the books, the Rat Cook story appears to serve as a reason to fear the Nightfort, not to emphasise guest rites.

[Khal Porno]

This is a tiny detail, but why was the Frey stabbing Talisa in the stomach? Wasn't it easier to cut her throat, as they've done with everyone else they took by surprise? Did Freys actually knew about Talisa's pregnancy and thus aimed her stomach on purpose? And, if they did know, why wasn't it revealed? Of course, the show can make this revelation any time in the coming episodes in some exposition, but, if they are going with that, it would've made a bigger impact if, let's say, Frey who killed her cursed the bastard in her wound along the way.

Most probably, Freys didn't know she's with a child, and that wasn't the point of going for Talisa's stomach at all. It was just one more thing that was meant to shock the viewers - who, opposite to Freys, do know Talisa is pregnant - rather than to follow the logic otherwise present in the massacre. That took me from the scene a little, and I believe that it took many other viewers as well, on subconscious level at least. Many posters expressed how displeased they were with the stabbing of Talisa, and I think this just might be one of the reasons. The gore isn't the problem as much as inconsistency is, however small that inconsistency may be.

It is a small one, indeed, and didn't ruin the scene. But, when we analyze it, this decision tends to look somewhat cheaper, because it only adds to the shock in a somewhat artificial way. Just try to imagine the guy writing this scene, and his concern being only to horrify the viewers some more, instead of following the inner logic of the butchery. Maybe there is nothing explicitly wrong with HBO fully embracing "the shock" approach, but it probably would've been better if they tried little harder to put themselves in the shoes of the characters they write, just like GRRM is doing all the time.

She had a pretty obvious baby bump, and Walder says he can always tell what's under a woman's clothes or some such thing when he's analyzing her body. I think the point of all of that was to say that he could tell she was pregnant.

EDIT: The purpose of killing her that way was more for the symbolic gesture rather than efficiency.

I'm surprised no one's complained about the "misogyny" of having a pregnant woman stabbed repeatedly in the stomach.

[Pinkie Baelish]

I'm surprised no one's complained about the "misogyny" of having a pregnant woman stabbed repeatedly in the stomach.

Well, I did complain about this HEINOUS act in the nitpick thread :D

Did anybody else notice that a WOMAN was killed by Catelyn, and a PREGNANT WOMAN was killed by Lame Lothar? MISOGYNY! TRIGGERING! CHARACTER ASSASSINATION! MALE GAZE! SEXISM!

[Khal Porno]

Well, I did complain about this HEINOUS act in the nitpick thread :D

High five.

[Nuttz]

"My big complaint with the Red Wedding however was that if you actually look back at it, there are quite a few triumphant moments. Well I don't know that triumphant is quite the right word, but moments that don't entirely make you lose your faith in humanity. We have Summer getting to go out like the beast he is, ripping out Frey throat. We see Sandor release the Hound taking on three Frey's at once. There are the actual decent Frey's, like Olyvar and Perwyn who refuse to have any part in the slaughter. There are Robb's bannermen like Dacey and Greatjon actually managing to put up a fight, as Greatjon manages to smack someone in the face with a leg of mutton and succeed in throwing off like eight Freys whilst roaring drunk. The show has none of that. Summer is cross-bowed ignominiously in a cage, the Hound flees like a coward, decent Freys don't exist and nor do any of Robb's bannermen it seems. It's just wholesale slaughter."

So yeah that is my personal gripe with the RW.

I had the same reaction, although making it more of a slaughter has grown on me (poor choice of words, I know). It looks like we'll see all of the soldiers being killed next episode, so there will probably be more of a fight there.

Well it's certainly harder to be as subtle with guest rites in the show, but I don't why that means not bothering with them at all. Especially since they bothered with them in Season 1 when Robb initially accepts Frey's marriage proposal. Why not a simple scene like that one, where there's a bit of anxiousness building up to the consuming of bread and salt, then visible relief when that was over? And maybe the Rat Cook story would have been too obvious in the same episode, but a quick scene earlier in the season with Bran telling it would've helped. And of course, as in the books, the Rat Cook story appears to serve as a reason to fear the Nightfort, not to emphasise guest rites.

They're certainly bothering with guest right, it's just not obvious. I think that's the way to go given that if they mentioned it then we would know that they would have to be broken anyway. We had subtle mentions of guest right back in season 1 as you said, as well as at Craster's keep earlier this season and in the conversation Dany has with the Yunkish envoy. Not to mention them actually eating the bread and salt in this episode. We'll probably have a mention of it after the fact.

[Hangover of the Morning]

They're certainly bothering with guest right, it's just not obvious. I think that's the way to go given that if they mentioned it then we would know that they would have to be broken anyway. We had subtle mentions of guest right back in season 1 as you said, as well as at Craster's keep earlier this season and in the conversation Dany has with the Yunkish envoy. Not to mention them actually eating the bread and salt in this episode. We'll probably have a mention of it after the fact.

:agree:

The guests rite are explained by Walder Frey when he invites the Starks/Tullys under his protection while we are watching all of them breaking bread together. Having Cat or someone else once again explain it is just unnecessary and wouldn't make it any clearer.

I just don't understand this notion that unless guest rights are properly explained, people will not understand why murdering your unarmed wedding guests is wrong. Really???

[Quentyn Baratheon]

I didn't liked Arya scenes in the middle of the slaughter. I would have much liked it at then end of the ep, witnessing Grey Wind dying, get knocked out by the Hound and then the ep ends. Just there in the middle of the action just feels weird.

My biggest grief is with Roose. The smile is GREAT. Just send me chills down my spine. But then, he just run like a child caught with a stolen lemon cake. The smile is totally spot on, and the run out is totally out of character and right down silly. Go figure.

[Cas Stark]

Can we not realize the wedding is awful without Catelyn narrating this fact to us? Or is television really not capable of conveying the closeness, the jarring and headache-inducing loudness, the forced gaiety? Did Robb sound like he was in particularly good cheer when you re-read the chapter? Or was it something he was enduring because he had to?

And is the show not able to actually depict details such as Robb's fury at not being allowed to have Grey Wind with him, or Catelyn insisting that they take formal guest right? Really?

The show deliberately steered away from any and all things that provided real foreboding. They made it a happy, cheerful wedding. Not because television is not capable of doing so, surely, because anyone who's actually watched good film and television knows how capable the medium is. So either it was too hard or -- and this is my guess -- they wanted the shock value to be heightend by burying what they were going to do, fearing that a strong sense of foreboding would "ruin" the surprise.

I guess the latter rather than the former because it's of a piece with their previous steering away from foreshadowing. They often eschew it, preferring to keep viewers "in the moment", and they generally seem to feel that extremes are more dramatic than subtlety.

I agree. There was a little bit of tension, but that wasn't the purpose of how they shot the scene. They've definitely shown that they like to "surprise" the viewers and the book readers, either with strange non book plot twists or with other more blunt types of shock tactics.

For what it was--a story about the deaths of Robb, Cat and Talisa--and the end of the love story, it was done fairly well, it was one of the strongest episodes this season, but nothing like what it could have been.

I also thought it was kind of strange to cram in the Sam and Gilly scene in this episode, who cares? and why not give that time to the RW instead? I haven't checked the time, but I don't think they really even spent that much on the segement overall. A better divide might have been RW, Jon and Bran for the Stark symetry and then something in KL with Tywin...and leave out Dany's story and for certain leave out Sam and Gilly.

[boojam]

So now that they've achieved their goal of shock and horror, :rolleyes: what do they actually plan to do with the rest of the series?

If you mean shock and horror, I can't remember anything in the rest of the book , unless crucifying nearly two hundred slave children by Meereen along the road from Yunkai to Meereen counts. As for Crows and Dragons well there is nothing I remember.

Just as well, when GRRM , for me, made the unexpected the expected, I was not impressed with the RW. They have already done my second favorite surprise Dracarys. My favorite scene in SoS , not a surprise , actually, is coming up, I hope next season, The fight at Inn at the Crossroads where Arya kills Polliver and retrieves Needle and her and the Hounds whole dynamic changes , in a grudging way. That was a bit of a surprise and a sweet complexity George added. I hope they do this right.

There is the Battle for the Wall, which will probably be set piece next season a very rich story for Jon, the NW and the Wildings... and a surprise appearance!

After that , except for Arya's strange story and Tryion's odd travelogue , page to screen , god only knows.

[Beric Zoolander]

For me the biggest problem was playing Rains of Castamere. Cat listens to the music, and then doors are closed, and then she sits... It was a bit off. In the books, song is the beginning of the chaos, and here, I was all about `People, they are playing the sinister song that celebrates your enemy`. Someone react. The timing with the song was for me a bit off.

I felt similarly. In the book theres that drum beat going, and that always stuck out to me. The show did it quite differently, it was a slow and then when the killing began the song was cut off by Frey. In the book IIRC it ramps up gets louder to drown out the chaos, and create more. I don't think its bad the way the did it, the silence played a huge role in that scene, and let the killing really take center stage, especially at the end when Catelyn was killed and dropped to the ground - roll credits.

I still kinda wish they had that slow drumbeat / heartbeat kinda thing going on in the background, very foreboding. Could have made more use of whats his face from Coldplay that way too hahah.

[sausagekingchi]

GRRM admitted the whole difference in her appearance was a mistake. The people who clinged to the theory were clinging to Robb more than anything. I'm glad we can put that, finally, to rest.

Can you tell me where you read that from GRRM where he is actually speaking about Jeyne and her appearance? I've heard him say that he does sometimes make some mistakes on certain details, but never heard any quote directly related to Jeyne's appearance. Regardless, if GRRM shares info with the producers then this certainly would put to rest that Jeyne was smuggled out by the Blackfish in the books. I'm still surprised though that he would make that mistake in the books. Before I ever knew about the theory of Jeyne being pregnant I always felt he was making a point of talking about her big hips through Cat's chapter's and then has Jaime describe her completely differently. Jaime describes many women in the book, but never once mentions any of their hips until Jeyne.

[Dragonstoned]

I'm not going to blame Rickon's actor (who's name escapes me at the moment) for not pulling off a stellar performance because the guys like seven.

I read your blog review Protar and thought it was sound but do you really not think the guy who played Rickon (Art Parkinson btw) was stellar? I thought he carried off his part superbly and that you can add him to the list of brilliant child actors the show keeps somehow churning out.

[Miodrag]

She had a pretty obvious baby bump, and Walder says he can always tell what's under a woman's clothes or some such thing when he's analyzing her body. I think the point of all of that was to say that he could tell she was pregnant.

EDIT: The purpose of killing her that way was more for the symbolic gesture rather than efficiency.

One can probably guess every piece that is missing from the puzzle that is “Game of Thrones”, but it doesn’t mean it’s a good thing if a show commands that much guessing from it’s viewers. Yeah, theoretically Walder could’ve figured out Talisa’s pregnant and inform his soldier to go for her stomach, or Roose, as someone suggested, could’ve heard about it, him being a northern lord and all. And, in this particular case, even if a viewer doesn’t figure it out, or doesn’t bother with figuring it out at all, everything’s OK – the scene won’t be ruined because of that little piece of storytelling.

But, the devil does lie in the details, and there’s too many details in GoT that went wrong, or, as in this case, not entirely right. With each and every episode, I’m more and more convinced that GoT’s devil is something called “formulaic storytelling”, which is the usual result of insecurity of the authors. Whenever they’re not sure what to do with the plot or characters, insecure writers go after formulas they recognize as successful; if they’re talented, they’ll end up with not great, but decent enough product; if they lack the talent, they’ll drown their story in clichés. And in adapting a story as big as ASOIAF is, talent can only get you so far: if you lack the faith in your own judgment and your own passion, no talent in the world’s going to save the show from jarring inconsistency.

Funny thing is that show-lovers tend to defend D&D by stating D&D have the right to boldly pursue their own creativity. Many of the TV critics in American media are doing the same: some are even encouraging D&D to take even more liberties and deviate some more from the source material. A sense is created that deviating from Martin’s work is brave, creative, inevitable... The root problem for GoT, however, may very well be just the opposite thing: maybe D&D weren’t brave enough to follow their initial admiration and passion for ASOIAF. One can only guess, but in early stages of filming and promoting GoT I was under impression that D&D were delighted with the books. Not only with the sheer quality of writing, but also with the highly cinematic structure of the novels. With dialogues that are nothing short of brilliant, with so wide arrange of skillfully developed characters, with a plot this addictive, ASOIAF is in many aspects a dream come true for adaptation. Yeah, there are logistic and financial demands that are quite extraordinary, maybe even unprecedented in TV industry, but fixing those problems, while mandatory, was never going to be the main legacy of this adaptation. (And honestly, even those issues could’ve been handled better; for example, almost every action scene in “Vikings”, despite being poorly written, is filmed and edited more effectively than what we usually see in GoT.)

Had they followed their initial impulse and remained faithful to the source material, and demanded the same level of faithfulness from all involved (directors, actors, other writers, and, most importantly, executives), D&D would’ve been much braver than with what they’ve done. Unfortunately, I’m pretty sure that, when they approached the actual filming, they themselves weren’t sure GoT is going to be the biggest HBO project in years; hence, they often went after the smallest common denominator. They even did it with the one scene they were so eager to film, the scene that, they claim, incepted the very idea of adapting ASOIAF.

Truth be told, they did manage to make a highly successful show. If they’re happy with it, and HBO’s happy, and viewers are happy – good for all of them, I guess. With so much drivel on TV, their pleasure is understandable on some level. But, it doesn’t mean all the readers who, for years now, enjoyed the unconventional and bold brilliance of ASOIAF, have to be satisfied with the adaptation, let alone admire “the courage” of showrunners. All told, the only one truly brave is still GRRM, for what he put in the novels. Almost everything else in GoT is pure industry. Sometimes done craftily, sometimes not so, but industry nevertheless.

[protar]

I read your blog review Protar and thought it was sound but do you really not think the guy who played Rickon (Art Parkinson btw) was stellar? I thought he carried off his part superbly and that you can add him to the list of brilliant child actors the show keeps somehow churning out.

He wasn't awful but in comparison to say Isaac Hempstead Wright yeah I wouldn't say he was amazing. But like I say he's very young, I feel he has potential and I thought the scene was touching. So he was still fairly good, just not as good as the rest of the child cast.

I expect if they manage to get him back in S5 or 6 he'll have trained up a bit and will have come into his own a lot more.

[Ran]

Art was fine, but ... I can't quite understand why some feel he was exceptional. He did what was needed to be done, and hat's off to him for that, but that's all I could really see on the screen when it came to him.

[Cas Stark]

One can probably guess every piece that is missing from the puzzle that is “Game of Thrones”, but it doesn’t mean it’s a good thing if a show commands that much guessing from it’s viewers. Yeah, theoretically Walder could’ve figured out Talisa’s pregnant and inform his soldier to go for her stomach, or Roose, as someone suggested, could’ve heard about it, him being a northern lord and all. And, in this particular case, even if a viewer doesn’t figure it out, or doesn’t bother with figuring it out at all, everything’s OK – the scene won’t be ruined because of that little piece of storytelling.

But, the devil does lie in the details, and there’s too many details in GoT that went wrong, or, as in this case, not entirely right. With each and every episode, I’m more and more convinced that GoT’s devil is something called “formulaic storytelling”, which is the usual result of insecurity of the authors. Whenever they’re not sure what to do with the plot or characters, insecure writers go after formulas they recognize as successful; if they’re talented, they’ll end up with not great, but decent enough product; if they lack the talent, they’ll drown their story in clichés. And in adapting a story as big as ASOIAF is, talent can only get you so far: if you lack the faith in your own judgment and your own passion, no talent in the world’s going to save the show from jarring inconsistency.

Funny thing is that show-lovers tend to defend D&D by stating D&D have the right to boldly pursue their own creativity. Many of the TV critics in American media are doing the same: some are even encouraging D&D to take even more liberties and deviate some more from the source material. A sense is created that deviating from Martin’s work is brave, creative, inevitable... The root problem for GoT, however, may very well be just the opposite thing: maybe D&D weren’t brave enough to follow their initial admiration and passion for ASOIAF. One can only guess, but in early stages of filming and promoting GoT I was under impression that D&D were delighted with the books. Not only with the sheer quality of writing, but also with the highly cinematic structure of the novels. With dialogues that are nothing short of brilliant, with so wide arrange of skillfully developed characters, with a plot this addictive, ASOIAF is in many aspects a dream come true for adaptation. Yeah, there are logistic and financial demands that are quite extraordinary, maybe even unprecedented in TV industry, but fixing those problems, while mandatory, was never going to be the main legacy of this adaptation. (And honestly, even those issues could’ve been handled better; for example, almost every action scene in “Vikings”, despite being poorly written, is filmed and edited more effectively than what we usually see in GoT.)

Had they followed their initial impulse and remained faithful to the source material, and demanded the same level of faithfulness from all involved (directors, actors, other writers, and, most importantly, executives), D&D would’ve been much braver than with what they’ve done. Unfortunately, I’m pretty sure that, when they approached the actual filming, they themselves weren’t sure GoT is going to be the biggest HBO project in years; hence, they often went after the smallest common denominator. They even did it with the one scene they were so eager to film, the scene that, they claim, incepted the very idea of adapting ASOIAF.

Truth be told, they did manage to make a highly successful show. If they’re happy with it, and HBO’s happy, and viewers are happy – good for all of them, I guess. With so much drivel on TV, their pleasure is understandable on some level. But, it doesn’t mean all the readers who, for years now, enjoyed the unconventional and bold brilliance of ASOIAF, have to be satisfied with the adaptation, let alone admire “the courage” of showrunners. All told, the only one truly brave is still GRRM, for what he put in the novels. Almost everything else in GoT is pure industry. Sometimes done craftily, sometimes not so, but industry nevertheless.

Here is what I think happened in a nutshell:

The success of Season 1 [very faithful to the book] embolded D&D, and they took the increased ratings of Season 2 [less faithful to the book] as a sign that they should embrace their "own creativity" and put their "own stamp" on the show and so they are continuing to divert from the story, they also seem to enjoy the idea of surprising readers by their non book plot twists.

I also think that some of the production decisions they've taken like going to Iceland and having so many separate shoots have taken a huge toll on the level of attention to detail, writing and characterization that we saw the first year.

[Dragonstoned]

It may be because Rickon had more lines in that scene that in the whole of the previous three seasons, so people (myself included) were pleasantly surprised with him. I felt his facial expressions were really good and delivery too, like he just looked really believably heartbroken about having to leave his brother and not being able to in his mind protect him anymore, bodes well for him riding back to Winterfell on a unicorn in s6 or something.

[Miodrag]

Here is what I think happened in a nutshell:

The success of Season 1 [very faithful to the book] embolded D&D, and they took the increased ratings of Season 2 [less faithful to the book] as a sign that they should embrace their "own creativity" and put their "own stamp" on the show and so they are continuing to divert from the story, they also seem to enjoy the idea of surprising readers by their non book plot twists.

I also think that some of the production decisions they've taken like going to Iceland and having so many separate shoots have taken a huge toll on the level of attention to detail, writing and characterization that we saw the first year.

That may the case, all right. In the first interview they gave after season one, D&D stated something like: "We know better than anyone what were the faults of the show, we don't need anyone to tell us that". It does suggest that their level of "confidence" significantly multiplied after season one.

[Cas Stark]

That may the case, all right. In the first interview they gave after season one, D&D stated something like: "We know better than anyone what were the faults of the show, we don't need anyone to tell us that". It does suggest that their level of "confidence" significantly multiplied after season one.

Interesting. I don't remember that interview, but its certainly a different tone than the one they set now where they say if its a choice between "good TV" and "book faithfulness" they're always going to go with good TV...as if there really are that many fork in the road choices between the two.

What I don't understand is why, at least to me, the writing itself and the show continuity seems to have suffered so much and has become, again to me, wildly inconsistent. There are great pieces like the Jamie and Brienne stuff which has been spot on the whole season, and then crazy time stuff like Osha and Meera bitching about rabbits.