Reviewing the Rains of Castamere

[Nuttz]

I thought the simple direction was entirely the point of the last few scenes. They could have included some kind of stylistic flair like Ned's death, but isntead they chosen to go the super simplified route as far as shot composition and editing was concerned. They let the writing and acting speak for themselves, and I think it worked brilliantly. Many of the people who saw it coming expected somethign pretty grand, but the way they did it was unforgiving and uncompromising, its sole purpose was to shock the audience who didn't see it coming with complete honest brutality and emotion. Judging by the reactions all over the internet, it worked.

My main gripe is actually the fact that it's more brutal than in the books (they somehow managed it). It's more of a personal thing though, as I loved that Grey Wind killed some guys as he went down, as well as the whole flipping of the table. It was just a complete and utter slaughter in the show, by every definition of the word. The only slight "redemption" in that moment was the death of Walder's wife, but they played that very low key, even more so than the rest of it. She was just an afterthought for Catelyn.

Speaking of Catelyn, she was amazing this episode. Pretty much everyone was, really. Good to see Rickon get some lines and I thought it was an emotional parting. So was Jon and Ygritte's, even though it didn't really make much sense logistically as I doubt Jon would run from Tormund and Ygritte by themselves. Didn't really get a sense of there being much more wildings and the fact that he had to flee.

Dany's stuff was cool in itself, although it felt a bit jarring going from a Stark-heavy episode suddenly across the Narrow sea.

As soon as I saw the ending I knew people would not like it (book readers, that is). I definitely disagree although I can see why, it's mainly a taste thing. It's just clear that it was done by people who really know waht they're doing. In the hands of a lesser director that scene would have been overdone to the point of negatively impacting on the deaths of so many characters (with slow motion, contast sad music, etc). I wouldn't be surprised if they actually shot some more stylised stuff but chose to go more simple in editing.

EDIT:

The atmosphere was definitely there, although perhaps not as intense as the book. As soon as The Rains of Castamere starting playing and when the doors were shut my brother (show watcher) lost his shit. There was definitely a build up of dread before hand, although they toned down the snarky foreshadowing comments from Walder to not give the game away too much.

[Pinkie Baelish]

The timing with the song was for me a bit off.

Let's agree to disagree. The band suddenly playing the Rains is something that I thought the show nailed. I found it chilling, tbh. There was a definite foreboding feeling when the song started playing.

[Mladen]

Let's agree to disagree. The band suddenly playing the Rains is something that I thought the show nailed. I found it chilling, tbh. There was a definite foreboding feeling when the song started playing.

Song wasn`t problem. The problem was that song was the begining of the Cat`s doubts, not the end like in the books. It`s weird that most sinister song known in Westeros is played, and no one seems worried about it... Well, no one but Cat. You would think others know song too.

[HouseLark]

I agree with the general point of Elio and Linda's review; it wasn't a great episode, but it contained a great sequence and sometimes that is enough especially if it's seen as the climax of a series rather than the climax of a single episode. Both episodes 4 & 5 were better as a whole this season but the RW is a scene that has changed the game in terms of TV storytelling (much as it did the same for fantasy literature) and that alone makes this episode important and raises it to the level of greatness.

I do take issue with E&Ls contention that the director did not do a good enough job in building unease in the episode. It's a matter of opinion, of course, buti thought Nutter manage to convey the notion that something was not quite right vey effectively. I have seen better examples of mounting tension, but crucially, these have almost always been in claustrophobic settings with few (often only two) central characters. I don't think you should underestimate how difficult it is to build tension in a scene that is naturally crowded and otherwise filled with revelry. Michelle Fairley was clearly unnerved throughout and her expressions were enough to tell viewers that something wasn't right.

To be honest, I think book readers are not in the best position to review episodes that turn on a shocking plot twist. We take into the review our expectations and prior knowledge: no amount of professionalism or claims to be dispassionate can separate us from those preconceptions. Ultimately, the RW is shocking on the page as it was on the screen, but it's difficult to be shocked by something you know is coming. Overall, the sequence was well-shot and brilliantly acted, I find it difficult to find fault with that.

[DaveSumm]

Really glad about this review. I spent last night reading nothing but gushing praise for the RW, like Ran I thought it was good but not great. They knew they had a chance to make a landmark 'shock' piece of television and so they just ramped that aspect up to 11. Make the wedding as pleasant as possible and make the violence add gory as possible. Did an already disturbing event need a pregnant woman stabbed repeatedly in the belly? I felt Arya's was only as a pair of eyes outside, there was none of the emotional resonance we see in the book; her growing sense that something's wrong, the panicked clammering toward her family and the hound's ultimately kind act of stopping her. I thought the Rains of Castamere was a little strangely done as it was really only there as a nod to fans, not to signal the Frey's. It felt really off for the song to end before anything had even happened. And so it fell to Talisa's stabbing to signal the start of 'the twist' as it were.

As shocking as the chapter is, it's still very re-readable because it's also well written. It's hard to see what more I'll get out of watching the show scene a second time.

I think it's worth mentioning that the Hodor warging was very well done, it's a shame Bran's story was over shadowed as it was probably his best episode this season.

[Jorah the Explorer]

To be honest, I think book readers are not in the best position to review episodes that turn on a shocking plot twist.

Very true, and it's interesting that basically the entire review is dedicated to the "absence of impeding doom" theory. I think that is debunked by the Unsullied reaction, and in example this excellent review:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DggW-BRrqXE&feature=c4-feed-u

[Nuttz]

Very true, and it's interesting that basically the entire review is dedicated to the "absence of impeding doom" theory. I think that is debunked by the Unsullied reaction, and in example this excellent review:

http://www.youtube.c...ature=c4-feed-u

:agree:

[DaveSumm]

Even if you think the show made the right choice by stripping things back to raw shock, the review still makes a valid point that that shock is ultimately GRRM's, not D&D's.

EDIT: forgot to mention how odd it was that they didn't bother building up guest rites at all. Bran recounting the Rat Cook story would've been nice. I guess they figured 'sense of impeding doom + no guest rites build up = people figuring it out'.

[scotcat]

I think this is an episode that is destined to be nitpicked.

This was one of those moments book fans have been anticipating - lets be honest about it - since season 1. As such, it may be a case of over hyping/that wasn't how I pictured it reading the book/that wasn't exactly how it was done in the book. It's very true that you'll never be able to please everyone. I think this is evidence of that.

As for me, I enjoyed the episode very much. I think the director did a good job building tension, which is a difficult thing to do. And yes, there were changes, but I didn't let that colour my opinion of the episode. I liked the choices made by D&D and company, while others didn't - this doesn't make my opinion any less valid than someone else's.

[Ran]

Nuttz,

As soon as The Rains of Castamere starting playing...

Sure. But that's in the final third of the wedding, basically. I'm arguing that that atmosphere of dread should have been subtly cued from the very start, much as in the novel. That would have been a masterful display of atmosphere and the balancing of tensions, to make people believe the mood was because of it being an awful wedding and their wanting to get it over with... and then realizing that the mood was because, well, it was getting over with.

They took a simpler and less challenging route.

HouseLark,

Michelle Fairley was clearly unnerved throughout

I've rewatched the Twins scenes quite a lot, and I beg to differ. Catelyn's smiling and laughing with the Blackfish, her light-hearted responses to Bolton's question about her bedding, don't strike me as someone unnerved. The first one, especially, is an intimate and relatively private moment, not the place where she'd really put up a front, so... yeah, agree to disagree.

[Miodrag]

This is a tiny detail, but why was the Frey stabbing Talisa in the stomach? Wasn't it easier to cut her throat, as they've done with everyone else they took by surprise? Did Freys actually knew about Talisa's pregnancy and thus aimed her stomach on purpose? And, if they did know, why wasn't it revealed? Of course, the show can make this revelation any time in the coming episodes in some exposition, but, if they are going with that, it would've made a bigger impact if, let's say, Frey who killed her cursed the bastard in her wound along the way.

Most probably, Freys didn't know she's with a child, and that wasn't the point of going for Talisa's stomach at all. It was just one more thing that was meant to shock the viewers - who, opposite to Freys, do know Talisa is pregnant - rather than to follow the logic otherwise present in the massacre. That took me from the scene a little, and I believe that it took many other viewers as well, on subconscious level at least. Many posters expressed how displeased they were with the stabbing of Talisa, and I think this just might be one of the reasons. The gore isn't the problem as much as inconsistency is, however small that inconsistency may be.

It is a small one, indeed, and didn't ruin the scene. But, when we analyze it, this decision tends to look somewhat cheaper, because it only adds to the shock in a somewhat artificial way. Just try to imagine the guy writing this scene, and his concern being only to horrify the viewers some more, instead of following the inner logic of the butchery. Maybe there is nothing explicitly wrong with HBO fully embracing "the shock" approach, but it probably would've been better if they tried little harder to put themselves in the shoes of the characters they write, just like GRRM is doing all the time.

[T-Dawg Seaworth]

This is my first post on any forum but have been waiting in the shadows like roose for a while now,

I think the build up in the books was more tense and probably drawn out but I think it's impossible to do that on tv without dedicating a whole episode to the wedding itself.

I actually think the tv scene did justice to the book and thought old man Frey was expertly portrayed I would not find fault as I think u just have to appreciate both mediums of story telling.

I find the hound and arya scenes very strong not just in this episode but in general, and on a further topic I find the casting fantastic, for instance I never pictured grey worm as one so young and I found it a refreshing take on his character (or maybe I didn't pay enough attention to his descriptions while reading)

My final point is that of all the scenes that I felt should have been given more time it was the Jon and the wildlings, I know bran was after realising he had immense strength in warging but to only raise seeing Jon as almost an after thought was a bit unusual I think maybe jojen should have more influence, does anybody agree?? Meera has done little besides argue with asha, who I hope it's not the last we see of as she slinks away in the night.

[Nuttz]

Nuttz,

Sure. But that's in the final third of the wedding, basically. I'm arguing that that atmosphere of dread should have been subtly queued from the very start, much as in the novel. That would have been a masterful display of atmosphere and the balancing of tensions, to make people believe the mood was because of it being an awful wedding and their wanting to get it over with... and then realizing that the mood was because, well, it was getting over with.

They took a simpler and less challenging route.

OK I see your point, although it's hard for me to compare the two as I had the RW spoiled for me in the books, so I had that feeling of impeding doom regardless of how the chapter/s were written.

Although I do think they had a sense of foreboding in there. It most definitely wasn't as strong as in the books, but it was there. The simple fact that Roose Bolton was in attendance clicked with a lot of people (including those in the review posted above), and just the general way he acted what with not drinking and his story about Fat Walda.

I disagree that they took the less challenging route. I wouldn't put either above the other in terms of how difficult they are to pull off, it's just that they're different. Ultimately I think they made the right choice. What screenwriting essentially boils down to is breaking down scenes into their one essence. This isn't something you do in novels where complexity (if done right) works. In a screenplay, writers look at what they're trying to say with each individual scene and episode and season and series as a whole, and they make sure they reinforce that as much as possible.

It's similar to what is likely the show's most unpopular move in changing the House of the Undying. They changed that scene to reflect Dany's emotional journey throughout that season as a whole rather than go the route of the books and look far into the future. Whether you thought that was the right move is up to opinion, but the RW is the same thing. Ultimately, that scene is about the shock and betrayal and downfall of House Stark. Given that this was the point of the scene, I think it was better served in placing the emphasis on the shocking brutality of it all, rather than a slow burning dread. I thought it elicited the proper emotion in order to attach the audience emotionally to the scene.

Ultimately I think what most book-readers (pretty much everyone that I've talked to about it at least, although I'm sure people are in the same palce as you though) felt about that chapter in the books was the shock. The slow build-up is something that they retro-actively feel, which seems to be what's happening with the scene/s in the show as well.

[Nuttz]

This is a tiny detail, but why was the Frey stabbing Talisa in the stomach? Wasn't it easier to cut her throat, as they've done with everyone else they took by surprise? Did Freys actually knew about Talisa's pregnancy and thus aimed her stomach on purpose? And, if they did know, why wasn't it revealed? Of course, the show can make this revelation any time in the coming episodes in some exposition, but, if they are going with that, it would've made a bigger impact if, let's say, Frey who killed her cursed the bastard in her wound along the way.

Most probably, Freys didn't know she's with a child, and that wasn't the point of going for Talisa's stomach at all. It was just one more thing that was meant to shock the viewers - who, opposite to Freys, do know Talisa is pregnant - rather than to follow the logic otherwise present in the massacre. That took me from the scene a little, and I believe that it took many other viewers as well, on subconscious level at least. Many posters expressed how displeased they were with the stabbing of Talisa, and I think this just might be one of the reasons. The gore isn't the problem as much as inconsistency is, however small that inconsistency may be.

It is a small one, indeed, and didn't ruin the scene. But, when we analyze it, this decision tends to look somewhat cheaper, because it only adds to the shock in a somewhat artificial way. Just try to imagine the guy writing this scene, and his concern being only to horrify the viewers some more, instead of following the inner logic of the butchery. Maybe there is nothing explicitly wrong with HBO fully embracing "the shock" approach, but it probably would've been better if they tried little harder to put themselves in the shoes of the characters they write, just like GRRM is doing all the time.

I imagine the news was known to most of the Northern army. If not them, then at least the leaders. So Roose probably relegated this informatioon to the Freys and/or Tywin.

[protar]

About the build up of dread not being there (or not being nearly so pronounced as in the books). Keep in mind that that sense of dread is portrayed through Cat's internal monologue, which we do not have. Outside of her POV everybody aside from her and Robb are actually having a pretty good time of it. So I thought that this approach was perfectly true to the books. The Unsullied viewers aren't placed in Cat's position, they're placed in the position of the men on the benches, with not an inkling of what's about to happen.

[Accursed]

I agree a fair bit with the review, personally I just can't help but be dissapointed knowing what the scene could have been. I certainly expected D&D to be more ambitious considering the red wedding was the moment they really wanted to recreate on tv...

[Ran]

. Keep in mind that that sense of dread is portrayed through Cat's internal monologue, which we do not have.

Can we not realize the wedding is awful without Catelyn narrating this fact to us? Or is television really not capable of conveying the closeness, the jarring and headache-inducing loudness, the forced gaiety? Did Robb sound like he was in particularly good cheer when you re-read the chapter? Or was it something he was enduring because he had to?

And is the show not able to actually depict details such as Robb's fury at not being allowed to have Grey Wind with him, or Catelyn insisting that they take formal guest right? Really?

The show deliberately steered away from any and all things that provided real foreboding. They made it a happy, cheerful wedding. Not because television is not capable of doing so, surely, because anyone who's actually watched good film and television knows how capable the medium is. So either it was too hard or -- and this is my guess -- they wanted the shock value to be heightend by burying what they were going to do, fearing that a strong sense of foreboding would "ruin" the surprise.

I guess the latter rather than the former because it's of a piece with their previous steering away from foreshadowing. They often eschew it, preferring to keep viewers "in the moment", and they generally seem to feel that extremes are more dramatic than subtlety.

[Nuttz]

Can we not realize the wedding is awful without Catelyn narrating this fact to us? Or is television really not capable of conveying the closeness, the jarring and headache-inducing loudness, the forced gaiety? Did Robb sound like he was in particularly good cheer when you re-read the chapter? Or was it something he was enduring because he had to?

And is the show not able to actually depict details such as Robb's fury at not being allowed to have Grey Wind with him, or Catelyn insisting that they take formal guest right? Really?

The show deliberately steered away from any and all things that provided real foreboding. They made it a happy, cheerful wedding. Not because television is not capable of doing so, surely, because anyone who's actually watched good film and television knows how capable the medium is. So either it was too hard or -- and this is my guess -- they wanted the shock value to be heightend by burying what they were going to do, fearing that a strong sense of foreboding would "ruin" the surprise.

I guess the latter rather than the former because it's of a piece with their previous steering away from foreshadowing. They often eschew it, preferring to keep viewers "in the moment", and they generally seem to feel that extremes are more dramatic than subtlety.

The Red Wedding is anything but subtle, even in the books.

Also, I imagine the reason they left out a few of the scenes that would add this foreboding (you mentioned guest right and Grey Wind being chained) is down to time. Guest right requires an explanation that they didn't really have time to give in the episode, and wasn't really important to be given before the actual scene anyway. Guest right acts to placate the readers in the books rather than to add foreboding, so it wouldn't help achieve what you wanted the episode to. As for Robb's reaction to Grey Wind, that's just another scene to be added that they didn't have the time for. They could ahve added some lines into another scene but giving it so little weight as to tack it on somewhere else would just risk it ringing emotionally hollow.

[The hairy bear]

To be honest, I think book readers are not in the best position to review episodes that turn on a shocking plot twist. We take into the review our expectations and prior knowledge: no amount of professionalism or claims to be dispassionate can separate us from those preconceptions. Ultimately, the RW is shocking on the page as it was on the screen, but it's difficult to be shocked by something you know is coming. Overall, the sequence was well-shot and brilliantly acted, I find it difficult to find fault with that.

Agreed, but not for the reasons you say. Book readers are sometimes unfair to the show because it's impossible not to compare, and Martin's work is far, far superior. If Martin is a ten, we are due to criticize B&W work when they only reach a eight. And that's harsh. Honestly, no matter how good they had adapted the scene, the experience would be inferior to the one I had reading the books.

And that's not related of the surprise being spoiled. A real work of art should not rely solely on the shock factor. If the episode can't stand subsequent watchings, perhaps it's not as good as we thought.

It has come to my mind that perhaps on of the best murder scenes that I have ever seen in television was Caesar/Mace's stabbing in Rome. We all knew what was coming. The foreboding was everywhere. And still, it was magnificent. Much better than the RW, IMO. And perhaps that's why. Since any schoolboy knew what was going to happen, they didn't bother to go for the shock, and went for the good tv.

[PatrickStormborn]

I've rewatched the Twins scenes quite a lot, and I beg to differ. Catelyn's smiling and laughing with the Blackfish, her light-hearted responses to Bolton's question about her bedding, don't strike me as someone unnerved. The first one, especially, is an intimate and relatively private moment, not the place where she'd really put up a front, so... yeah, agree to disagree.

Yeah, this was really weird. Cat has been anxious all season, and the first time we see her relaxed is around the Freys? It didn't make sense. The only reason I can see for it was to lull the viewers into a false sense of security and make the twist as shocking as possible.

Ultimately, the showrunners met their own expecations: the episode was shocking in the short-term. And that seems to be what they've been going for since season two - making the show enjoyable in the short-term. But the long-term quality of the show has been seriously affected.

About the build up of dread not being there (or not being nearly so pronounced as in the books). Keep in mind that that sense of dread is portrayed through Cat's internal monologue, which we do not have. Outside of her POV everybody aside from her and Robb are actually having a pretty good time of it. So I thought that this approach was perfectly true to the books. The Unsullied viewers aren't placed in Cat's position, they're placed in the position of the men on the benches, with not an inkling of what's about to happen.

This would have been easily solved by showing the scene from Cat's perspective. The problem is that, since season two, they've placed the emphasis on Robb instead. Highlighting Cat further in this episode (and actually showing her growing anxiety throughout the entire wedding) would have built up the dread perfectly.