Reviewing the Rains of Castamere

[Talbot]

Well they definitely got the reaction from non-readers that they wanted, and that's probably what matters more to them anyways, given the unrealistic expectations some of you have.

[Tori Targaryen]

As a book reader, I can safely say that they adapted the Red Wedding for the screen absolutely perfectly. People nitpicking about this and that do not understand how TV and film adaptation works and therefore should be ignored. They got the point across, the emotion, the tragedy and the horror. One of the finest, if not the finest moment of the series so far. Bravo!

[PatrickStormborn]

D&D made an active decision to make the Red Wedding as shocking as possible (The twist has left many fans of the HBO series stunned, which Madden has said was the desired emotional reaction of Game of Thrones producers). That is not due to "how TV and film adaptation works". It's due to how D&D chose to adapt the scene.

I also thought the directing at the end was a bad choice. Having a headshot/close-up of Cat slitting the throat of Walder Frey's wife would have been more powerful and wouldn't have looked as unrealistic. And I think gradually zooming in on Cat's face after the murder would have been far more powerful. Having her stand there lifeless was weak, but it could have been salvaged by this IMO.

[Dragonstoned]

Many of the small criticisms (e.g. Cat not saying about her hair, or the absence of the Greatjon and the changing of Roose's line which we already knew were coming) aren't really valid, However what's been said about the change in tone (i.e. less horror build-up of unease) should not be ignored. It was just a different approach to the RW which went for sudden shock and surprise over the escalating storylike quality in the book (where tension rises over the chapter, with stages to the massacre and toing-and-froing like the northern soldiers bursting in and Cat thinking they're saved, before one of them cuts the Smalljon's head off with an axe and you realise they're fucked). Personally I preferred Martin's take on it but the show one is also very good and even if it left out some aspects really got across the brutality moreso than in the books.

Also I have had to explain to quite a few people already saying 'the Starks were stupid why didn't they take more care' that under guest right they had every reason to believe they were safe. I was hoping the show would deal with this before the RW but they might sort it out retrospectively with the Rat King next episode.

edit: grr stealing my thoughts a minute before I post them Patrick

[Osric]

Pretty much this. Roose doesn't scuttle off like a lowlife Frey weasel. He glides away gracefully, with everyone's gaze placed firmly upon him, taking in his elegance and awesomeness and sculling down tankards of moon tea to ensure that they aren't impregnated by his majestic presence.

But I loved, loved, LOVED the devil-may-care smirk he had on his face when Catelyn discovered the chainmail. It may not be exactly true to the character in the books, but it firmly establishes him as a sadistic and ruthless villain, which is what his character needs. One of the AV Club Unsullied reviewers praised his reveal as a traitor, and I'm glad that the character has received a positive reception, and I hope this is indicative of the general consensus. Roose is not a nice bloke at all, and I thought the scene exemplified this.

:agree:

[Khal Porno]

Many of the small criticisms (e.g. Cat not saying about her hair, or the absence of the Greatjon and the changing of Roose's line which we already knew were coming) aren't really valid, However what's been said about the change in tone (i.e. less horror build-up of unease) should not be ignored. It was just a different approach to the RW which went for sudden shock and surprise over the escalating storylike quality in the book (where tension rises over the chapter, with stages to the massacre and toing-and-froing like the northern soldiers bursting in and Cat thinking they're saved, before one of them cuts the Smalljon's head off with an axe and you realise they're fucked). Personally I preferred Martin's take on it but the show one is also very good and even if it left out some aspects really got across the brutality moreso than in the books.

Also I have had to explain to quite a few people already saying 'the Starks were stupid why didn't they take more care' that under guest right they had every reason to believe they were safe. I was hoping the show would deal with this before the RW but they might sort it out retrospectively with the Rat King next episode.

edit: grr stealing my thoughts a minute before I post them Patrick

I think more is being made of the "build up" to the Red Wedding than is necessary. In a recent interview with EW, Martin says "There’s a certain amount of foreboding leading up to it. It’s a betrayal. It comes out of left field. It’s at a wedding feast. Robb has made his peace and you think the worst is over. Then it comes out of nowhere." Clearly Martin wanted the Red Wedding to be a shock and a surprise, even with the foreshadowing. That was clearly what resonated the most with Benioff and Weiss when they read it, so that's what they played up the most for the television show.

When I read it, I didn't feel this mounting suspense like a horror movie leading up to the killings which is what Ran is talking about in his review. For me, like Martin says, it "came out of left field." I thought the things like the bad food and whatnot was meant to show that Walder Frey was disrespecting Robb and Catelyn, it was only later that I realized what was REALLY going on, and of course all of that is clear on re-readings.

In the show there is a certain amount of pretext and suspense created after the "bedding" and the women leave, which Catelyn notes with increasing apprehension. I think if there was this extended mounting sense of dread on the show it would be a dead giveaway that there was about to be a murder. And if the audience sees it coming, they would ask why Robb doesn't see it coming and get the hell out of there, all of which would greatly reduce the shock and horror of the actual betrayal.

[Khal Porno]

D&D made an active decision to make the Red Wedding as shocking as possible (The twist has left many fans of the HBO series stunned, which Madden has said was the desired emotional reaction of Game of Thrones producers). That is not due to "how TV and film adaptation works". It's due to how D&D chose to adapt the scene.

That's how TV and film adaptation works.

The producers and writers choose how to adapt the scenes, based on what resonated most with them when they read the source material and what they feel will be most effective in the new medium.

[Jon of the Dead]

Wow. Just wow. I have to say I'm truly shocked by your review this time. As someone who agrees pretty much with all your reviews, I found this time you were completely off the mark. While I enjoyed the episode, there were some aspects of the climax of the RW that I thought were handled poorly, mainly regarding directing and editing, for example, the delivery of Bolton's line happened way too fast and without the necessary emotional impact, the cut to Arya disrupted the pace by being shot significantly slower, etc, and yet, you spend almost 7 paragraphs discussing the lack of dread in the atmosphere (??)

Yes, there are certain elements of the Uncanny present in Cat's pov in the novel (many of which become noticeable during a re-read), but I fail to see how they didn't achieve this on the show. Honestly, check out any forum for non-readers and you'll see how they describe the same things that you claim were missing: the imminent dread, the feeling of something not being quite right, the sense of something terrible coming. It's all there, and they had this feeling from the beginning of the episode, go read the reactions for yourself. Really, adding more forshadowing would've not only ruined the shock but it would've turned the whole thing ridiculous, as in "why do robb and cat stay there when it's astonishingly clear something awful will happen?" The brilliant trap that GRRM creates for the wedding is giving a sense of security against the potential danger of the situation, it is only towards the end when Cat starts seeing all the signs that the whole thing starts unraveling at full speed. And this is there in the show as well: the doors closing, the emptier hall, the "Rains" playing, is all there, is all dreadful. Again, I'm struggling to see why you say the dread atmosphere wasn't present. Readers and non-readers alike felt it, it's all over the internet.

Frankly, I think your reviews are usually objective and to the point, which is why I read them. But this time I feel that you've fallen into Wimsatt and Breadley's old affective and intentional fallacy. Not that I blame you, if there's a moment in the asoiaf series to fall victim of these fallacies certainly is the RW, because it truly conveys different emotions of shock, grief and pain to viewers. However, basing all your analysis on the lack of a "horror-type" atmosphere, is completely subjective and personal, and in the 2 years that I've been lurking and semi-lurking in this and other forums of asoiaf is the first time that I've read anyone using horror movie tropes to analyze the RW. Again, not that it's wrong, but it is definetely one of those instances in which you are being totally bias to your own emotions and interpretations as a reader.

The only other instance in which I believe you've made a judgement like this in your reviews (which, I repeat, I think are quite good and accurate) was in your video analysis of season 2 when you said Dany's storyline was a failure because it didn't include the fairy-tale-like characteristics of the books and your whole "Qarth is a like a fever dream in the books" interpretation, which is an interpretation I haven't seen nowhere else, meaning that it's your own personal interpretation and entirely subjective.

Again, no offense, I understand why you chose to dedicate the whole review to the RW, but dedicating 5+ paragraphs arging how D+D didn't grasp the dread atmosphere is a pretty circular argument in my opinion. I'm not one of those who think you are against everything D+D write by default, but the repeated claim in you review of how D+D failed to grasp the atmosphere came off as tiresome and, frankly, even a little spiteful.

As someone who is as far of being a show-apologist as can be ( I mostly hated season 2 and some parts of 3), I honestly feel as if you were struggling to find a mistake in a pretty solid episode and decided to fixate on something as subjective as the atmosphere, not tackling other points of the episode. No offense, but your review reads as very bias and repetitive by saying how much D+D fails.

That said, I totally agree with your assesment of Cat (I was hoping you would've made her the focus point of your review, instead of the dreadful atmosphere, but ok) since the very last shot of her death being all silent was awkward and took away her poignant desperation in the books.

[Dragonstoned]

I think more is being made of the "build up" to the Red Wedding than is necessary. In a recent interview with EW, Martin says "There’s a certain amount of foreboding leading up to it. It’s a betrayal. It comes out of left field. It’s at a wedding feast. Robb has made his peace and you think the worst is over. Then it comes out of nowhere." Clearly Martin wanted the Red Wedding to be a shock and a surprise, even with the foreshadowing. That was clearly what resonated the most with Benioff and Weiss when they read it, so that's what they played up the most for the television show.

When I read it, I didn't feel this mounting suspense like a horror movie leading up to the killings which is what Ran is talking about in his review. For me, like Martin says, it "came out of left field." I thought the things like the bad food and whatnot was meant to show that Walder Frey was disrespecting Robb and Catelyn, it was only later that I realized what was REALLY going on, and of course all of that is clear on re-readings.

In the show there is a certain amount of pretext and suspense created after the "bedding" and the women leave, which Catelyn notes with increasing apprehension. I think if there was this extended mounting sense of dread on the show it would be a dead giveaway that there was about to be a murder. And if the audience sees it coming, they would ask why Robb doesn't see it coming and get the hell out of there, all of which would greatly reduce the shock and horror of the actual betrayal.

Did you not feel a growing sense of unease when reading the chapter then? Fair enough if not although I think there's enough in there with the crap food, loud crap music, everyone being tense and not having a good time for people to feel tense when reading it.

There are two things going on: foreshadowing and foreboding. I agree it works well without the foreshadowing ('bloody wedding' etc.) but the foreboding contained within the chapter, which Martin mentions, it could do with. Shock and surprise are one of the things book!RW does but it does other things as well which weren't included in the show rendition. Shock and surprise are the main things though so the producers were right to focus on those.

[Theron Bluemoon]

Doesnt the death of Talisa pretty much cancel all theories on Jeyne Westerling being pregnant?

[7V3N]

Doesnt the death of Talisa pretty much cancel all theories on Jeyne Westerling being pregnant?

Yes.

[boojam]

Doesnt the death of Talisa pretty much cancel all theories on Jeyne Westerling being pregnant?

Seems to tell me GRRM was not much interested in Westerling's story, and wanted to make her disappear.

If she reappears in the books , I guess George gets the last laugh.

[boojam]

A good review.

Well , as a reader, long ago, it seemed to me GRRM telegraphed the RW , tho I did not know what form it would take.

So when push came to shove, I was not surprised , like I was with Ned's death or Dracarys.

(I still like S3E4 the best , another episode, in my book, will not beat it.)

Well yes George did a better job of writing that sequence than Dave and Dan translated it, tho I do take issue that it was quite a cliched as you state it.

The did well with Arya's story.

The did a ragged job on Dany's sequence, a regular deus ex machina, Dave and Dan seemed pre-occupied.

Wow they packed Bran and Jon's stories into 'faster than a speeding bullet' sequences.

Now I do wonder what the hell they do with Osha and Rickon's story which does not exist in the book, but George likes Natalia Tena , so we shall have to see what they do next season.

One note: the Frey military uniforms are the most dorky looking things I have seen on the show.

[Theron Bluemoon]

Yes.

Yeah thought as much, they were vague theories anyway. Still i wanted to hold onto some hope that there was a little mini robb running around screaming honour and justice somewhere.

[7V3N]

Yeah thought as much, they were vague theories anyway. Still i wanted to hold onto some hope that there was a little mini robb running around screaming honour and justice somewhere.

GRRM admitted the whole difference in her appearance was a mistake. The people who clinged to the theory were clinging to Robb more than anything. I'm glad we can put that, finally, to rest.

[The Anti-Targ]

For me reading Cat's final chapter the first time it was reading in a state of denial. It's all right, everything's going to be OK, he's just being a mean, petty old fart. Pretty Roslin means Frey is going to extact as much humiliation from Robb as possible, but he'll stick to the new arrangement. First read through did not create any sense of impending doom, because I denied the significance of every little thing which portended towards the bloody betrayal. To that end TV show RW delivered.

For me the failings of the RW are in all the ways the adaptation of the show failed that story line leading up to the event.

The one failing of the show was in not emphasising that the bread and salt ritual should be a unimpeachable guarantee of safety while it is in effect; that Frey betraying the "deep magic" of that bond of trust was a HUGE deal. They can salvage thgat aspect somewhat after the fact by showing people such as Tyrion, Jaime and even Cersei being aghast that Frey would take out Robb in such a dishonourable way. In fact Cersei being a bit taken aback would convey the seriousness of what Frey did better than any other character. If this is a low Cersei wouldn't stoop to then it must be really really low. But still, the impact of this would have been much greater if guests rights had been mentioned, and shown in a separate context at least once (say at Craster's) earlier the series. I wanted Catelyn's line about how Robb must ensure this ritual is carried out ASAP. But without some previous instance of it in the series the line would have been out of place.

[The Anti-Targ]

Oh yeah, on Osha and Rickon. I think Natalia Tena will take a break for a Season and she'll be back with Rickon at the end of S5 which should be early TWoW material. We'll be seeing Rickon and Osha again and I don't think they'll want those characters taking 2 seasons off.

[Theron Bluemoon]

For me reading Cat's final chapter the first time it was reading in a state of denial. It's all right, everything's going to be OK, he's just being a mean, petty old fart. Pretty Roslin means Frey is going to extact as much humiliation from Robb as possible, but he'll stick to the new arrangement. First read through did not create any sense of impending doom, because I denied the significance of every little thing which portended towards the bloody betrayal. To that end TV show RW delivered.

For me the failings of the RW are in all the ways the adaptation of the show failed that story line leading up to the event.

The one failing of the show was in not emphasising that the bread and salt ritual should be a unimpeachable guarantee of safety while it is in effect; that Frey betraying the "deep magic" of that bond of trust was a HUGE deal. They can salvage thgat aspect somewhat after the fact by showing people such as Tyrion, Jaime and even Cersei being aghast that Frey would take out Robb in such a dishonourable way. In fact Cersei being a bit taken aback would convey the seriousness of what Frey did better than any other character. If this is a low Cersei wouldn't stoop to then it must be really really low. But still, the impact of this would have been much greater if guests rights had been mentioned, and shown in a separate context at least once (say at Craster's) earlier the series. I wanted Catelyn's line about how Robb must ensure this ritual is carried out ASAP. But without some previous instance of it in the series the line would have been out of place.

I agree, they need to invoke this on the show to show what the Freys done is a complete violation of an unwritten law. What Walder Frey did will certainly stain the house name, most likely, forever, people who watch the show need to know this.

[Alia of the knife]

So now that they've achieved their goal of shock and horror, :rolleyes: what do they actually plan to do with the rest of the series?

[Mladen]

For me the biggest problem was playing Rains of Castamere. Cat listens to the music, and then doors are closed, and then she sits... It was a bit off. In the books, song is the beginning of the chaos, and here, I was all about `People, they are playing the sinister song that celebrates your enemy`. Someone react. The timing with the song was for me a bit off.