Reviewing the Rains of Castamere

[briantw]

I have a feeling that Simon, as well as the other TV authors I respect, would be smart enough to follow the steps of a greater creative mind – GRRM. I’d say that Simon, despite his attitude which may strike some as pompous and arrogant, would react to ASOIAF just like he reacted to real-life people whose personal stories he used for narrative purposes in “The Wire”: he had so much respect for them, and he wanted to picture them so faithfully, that he even ended up casting many of them in the show. Hence, my guess is he would be clever enough to follow the novels as closely as possible.

Of course, we’ll never know how would he approach it.

I mean, maybe if we set Song in Baltimore he could pull it off, but I just find it hard to imagine David Simon directing a bunch of people in medieval-style armor, or telling the CGI team what to do with his three dragons.

Also, following the novels as closely as possible is damn near an impossibility. There are far too many characters and intricacies. I agree that the show often takes too many shortcuts and changes things that don't really need to be changed, but let's not pretend a strict adaptation of the series is remotely possible, even on a much higher budget than what D&D have.

[David Selig]

I have a feeling that Simon, as well as the other TV authors I respect, would be smart enough to follow the steps of a greater creative mind – GRRM. I’d say that Simon, despite his attitude which may strike some as pompous and arrogant, would react to ASOIAF just like he reacted to real-life people whose personal stories he used for narrative purposes in “The Wire”: he had so much respect for them, and he wanted to picture them so faithfully, that he even ended up casting many of them in the show. Hence, my guess is he would be clever enough to follow the novels as closely as possible.

This has nothing to do with being clever. Plenty of extremely clever directors and screenwriters have adapted great books (often much easier to adapt than ASOIF) and didn't stick closely to the original material at all. Kubrick is probably the most obvious example, but Tarkovsky also comes to mind.

[Daenerys Must Die]

I mean, maybe if we set Song in Baltimore he could pull it off, but I just find it hard to imagine David Simon directing a bunch of people in medieval-style armor, or telling the CGI team what to do with his three dragons.

Also, following the novels as closely as possible is damn near an impossibility. There are far too many characters and intricacies. I agree that the show often takes too many shortcuts and changes things that don't really need to be changed, but let's not pretend a strict adaptation of the series is remotely possible, even on a much higher budget than what D&D have.

Are you saying they didn't CGI Marlo's pigeons?

[Miodrag]

Well, that's all I wanted to hear, to be honest. Now we can finally come to the root of the problem.

Finally? Did I ever pretend otherwise? Did anyone here ever get the impression that I consider GRRM anything other than a genius?

[Ser Not Appearing]

I'm surprised at the complaints about this review.

Is there not room for noting how much better something could be, even in such cases as it is already quite good?

[Miodrag]

This has nothing to do with being clever. Plenty of extremely clever directors and screenwriters have adapted great books (often much easier to adapt than ASOIF) and didn't stick closely to the original material at all. Kubrick is probably the most obvious example, but Tarkovsky also comes to mind.

Of course, but with a source material this complicated, this wide and deep, I believe it's best to minimize deviations. It's not even necessary to find it great as I do, to see that it's endless web of characters and events is best left unaltered. If I'm to rewrite ASOIAF, I'd rather make an entirely new story, from the beginning through the end, than altering this and that, only to fall into a trap of my own doing some time later.

[Cas Stark]

This has nothing to do with being clever. Plenty of extremely clever directors and screenwriters have adapted great books (often much easier to adapt than ASOIF) and didn't stick closely to the original material at all. Kubrick is probably the most obvious example, but Tarkovsky also comes to mind.

And plenty have been faithful to their source material, but the real issue is that, at least in my opinion, the show is weakest, least consistent and logical and grounded in good plot, when they have diverged from the source material in terms of plot and action.

[Miodrag]

I mean, maybe if we set Song in Baltimore he could pull it off, but I just find it hard to imagine David Simon directing a bunch of people in medieval-style armor, or telling the CGI team what to do with his three dragons.

Also, following the novels as closely as possible is damn near an impossibility. There are far too many characters and intricacies. I agree that the show often takes too many shortcuts and changes things that don't really need to be changed, but let's not pretend a strict adaptation of the series is remotely possible, even on a much higher budget than what D&D have.

No, I just don’t want to pretend that a stricter adaptation is impossible. In fact, even with the same amount of money they have, a much stricter one could’ve easily been done. Had they kept closer to the book-Robb story, the show would’ve been better off. Had they kept closer with the Theon/Reek dynamics, the show would’ve been better off. (And really, in retrospect, how was it justifiable to cast Dagmer and not Reek for season 2?) Had they stick closer to Jon’s arch, the show would’ve been endlessly better of. These are all non-budget aspects.

And anyway, how am I to know are they spending their budget smartly or not?! You know, 60-70 million dollars is a lot of money. Though smaller than the budgets of A movies, it’s still pretty big for a television. Maybe it really isn’t enough for bigger scenes, just like they claim. But, maybe they simply spent it on wrong things, like expensive actors/directors/sets. And who knows, maybe D&D could’ve get more money from HBO had they negotiated better and tougher?

It’s all pure speculation, of course, but also is the notion that the budget is their biggest obstacle. We just don’t know, we can only speculate is 60-70 million per season enough or isn’t it. What’s much less speculative is, for example, that action scenes in GoT are often lame, compared to other shows that have similar action (once again – “Vikings”). It may be the HBO thing, because action scenes in “Rome” were also far from impressive, but it certainly doesn’t have to do anything with the budget.

[Mr Fixit]

Finally? Did I ever pretend otherwise? Did anyone here ever get the impression that I consider GRRM anything other than a genius?

That isn't the issue. I think ASOIAF is one of the greatest works of fiction I've ever had the pleasure of reading. But I'm not in such an idol worshipping mode to think that no one else can come even close to his genius and that it's a slap in the face of all that is holy to even think one can change something in his Holy Scriptures.

[protar]

That isn't the issue. I think ASOIAF is one of the greatest works of fiction I've ever had the pleasure of reading. But I'm not in such an idol worshipping mode to think that no one else can come even close to his genius and that it's a slap in the face of all that is holy to even think one can change something in his Holy Scriptures.

Well personally I absolutely believe that others can come close to Martin's genius. I'm open to people surpassing it.

D+D are not those people though imo. Not by a long shot.

[Mr Fixit]

Well personally I absolutely believe that others can come close to Martin's genius. I'm open to people surpassing it.

D+D are not those people though imo. Not by a long shot.

Fair enough. I'd just appreciate losing all the condescending baggage people like to haul around.

[Dragonstoned]

D&D have shown themselves capable of matching and even surpassing Martin often in s1 and even sometimes since - I'm thinking War Stories, Robert/Cersei and Tywin/Jaime as the trio of great invented scenes in the first season which I bet Martin wished he'd written (and found a way to work into the POVs). Unfortunately the writers on the show are much less consistent than Martin.

[Miodrag]

That isn't the issue. I think ASOIAF is one of the greatest works of fiction I've ever had the pleasure of reading. But I'm not in such an idol worshipping mode to think that no one else can come even close to his genius and that it's a slap in the face of all that is holy to even think one can change something in his Holy Scriptures.

First, I’m not holding ASOIAF for Holy Scriptures – otherwise, I wouldn’t go even near a debate about it, because debating about something with people who view it quite differently is exactly the opposite of glorifying it.

Second, GRRM is obviously not holding his work for Holy Scriptures, since he sold the rights to HBO and, as far as we know, he doesn’t publicly object GoT.

Most of the book-purists, as we’re often called, also don’t hold it for a relic. For the record, I don’t remember anyone complaining over Dany’s wedding being not after but before Jaime pushing Bran. An objection like that would’ve been an obsessive book-purism, in my book at least. Nobody was complaining over Ned directing Yoren toward Arya, because it really is a good addition (wouldn’t sacrifice Arya’s POV over it in the novel, but on TV it really was a welcomed addition). Book-purists here are so polite they even create nitpicking thread for every episode, in order to concentrate their complaints on one place, instead of posting them everywhere.

So, in a nutshell, I think this notion that we book-purists are obsessive over EVERY deviation and that we’re holding ASOIAF for Holy Scriptures, is imposed on us. Not that I mind it really, because, as I wrote on some earlier post, I believe ASOIAF does deserve it’s purists and I’ll gladly be one of them. It’s not about nerdism (as I recall, You and I come from the same country, and for my 39 years of life I honestly never met a single nerd in these parts of the world, in South-East Europe; and yet, ASOIAF is quite popular in the entire region, which is hardly a surprise, given the epic tradition of the Balkans). It’s about the pure quality of the novels.

What I do hold as Holy Scriptures, is other people’s creativity. And that is what I meant in the post you quoted. I have the utmost respect for GRRM’s genius, but for the genius of many other novelists as well, both classics and not. (For the record, I wasn’t nearly as impressed with GRRM’s the TV-writer; but, on the other hand, it’s hard to be the judge of his TV abilities, based on the show he isn’t the main creator of.) I have the utmost respect for David Simon also, along with all the other writers for “The Wire”. For David Chase too, and not just because how much I loved “The Sopranos”, but also for being the first one to undertake the novelistic approach to TV series.

Let’s say that my statement works the other way around, also: if GRRM was to adapt “The Wire”, I’d advise him to stick with the source material as close as humanly possible. It has nothing to do with idol worshiping (even in my younger days I didn’t have idols), but with my way of showing the respect for the minds whose works bring me so much reward.

[HouseLark]

As this has wandered off track to another general "book vs. show" discussion I think it's worth mentioning (and as a means to brining it back to the episode) that the episode generally handled a lot of the non-RW material well, and fairly faithfully. Where some deviations did occur they made sense, for example, making it clear that Bran can skinchange into humans though I wish that they did not include Osha's claim that this was a unique talent; it's rare and looked upon with repulsion but not unheard of. I liked Jon's escape and Arya's scenes plus the scenes at Yunkai were well-executed (poor Jorah's face as Dany asked about Daario...). My biggest complaint of the episode is, once again, turning central characters into video game heroes and nameless opponents into Imperial Stormtroopers. Seriously, it was Daario, Grey Worm and Jorah versus two waves of 15 or so opponents, no way are those odds believable. That adds to the Yoren scene from last season; man, how are they going to portray a real superhero swordsman? Heaven help them if they ever have to show Arthur Dayne, Robert in his pomp or the whole Tower of Joy scene.

[King of the Road]

(poor Jorah's face as Dany asked about Daario...)

http://25.media.tumblr.com/c63938820e7483844543c7081aa98008/tumblr_mntqnobZ1K1rqcgoso1_500.jpg

[Mr Fixit]

I have a problem with one thing and one thing only: condescension. Please, critisise away, I have my beefs with the show as well. It's just I can't stand condescending attitude towards D&D that's permeating around these here parts like a miasma, what with all the "fanfiction", "they think they know better" remarks.

These two guys and their team have to make thousands of creative decisions each season related to every single segment of the production. Do they make mistakes? Sure. Are they capable of dropping the ball? Definitely yes. But every well-meaning person, a fan of GoT and ASoIaF, is bound to believe that the creative team behind the show tries their best, sometimes succeeding and sometimes failing.

To say they are in it to "improve on Martin" because "they know better" is supremely petty.

[Hangover of the Morning]

I have a problem with one thing and one thing only: condescension. Please, critisise away, I have my beefs with the show as well. It's just I can't stand condescending attitude towards D&D that's permeating around these here parts like a miasma, what with all the "fanfiction", "they think they know better" remarks.

These two guys and their team have to make thousands of creative decisions each season related to every single segment of the production. Do they make mistakes? Sure. Are they capable of dropping the ball? Definitely yes. But every well-meaning person, a fan of GoT and ASoIaF, is bound to believe that the creative team behind the show tries their best, sometimes succeeding and sometimes failing.

To say they are in it to "improve on Martin" because "they know better" is supremely petty.

:agree: Perfectly said. Thanks :bowdown:

[HouseLark]

What I do hold as Holy Scriptures, is other people’s creativity. And that is what I meant in the post you quoted. I have the utmost respect for GRRM’s genius, but for the genius of many other novelists as well, both classics and not.

That argument holds only as far as the author themself holds their work as sacrosanct. You can never escape the fact that Martin sold his creativity and in doing so made the decision to cede creative control over the derived product. Other authors have retained much tighter control of their intellectual property but Martin was willing to give it up to quite a large degree. He knew how TV worked so can't claim ignorance if he doesn't like the show D&D+HBO have put together.

It's perfectly valid to argue the adaptation should be entirely faithful because, hey, that's what you prefer and think would make for a better show, but any notion that D&D+HBO should "respect" Martin's creativity went out the window when Martin himself decided he respected their money a whole lot more. It's not unheard of for authors to withdraw their cooperation completely if they don't like how their work is being handled (see Alan Moore for an object lesson in creative integrity that has probably cost him millions) so George is either happy with the adaptation (I believe he broadly is) or rather likes the benefits he reaps from it (fame, parties, money, a shop window for his less successful works) which I believe he does.

[Miodrag]

I have a problem with one thing and one thing only: condescension. Please, critisise away, I have my beefs with the show as well. It's just I can't stand condescending attitude towards D&D that's permeating around these here parts like a miasma, what with all the "fanfiction", "they think they know better" remarks.

These two guys and their team have to make thousands of creative decisions each season related to every single segment of the production. Do they make mistakes? Sure. Are they capable of dropping the ball? Definitely yes. But every well-meaning person, a fan of GoT and ASoIaF, is bound to believe that the creative team behind the show tries their best, sometimes succeeding and sometimes failing.

To say they are in it to "improve on Martin" because "they know better" is supremely petty.

Funny, I have the opposite feeling: that some fans of the show are overly-protective of D&D. However I take it, I can’t think of a single justification for changing Jeyne into Talisa, or for changing Qhorin into the creature that plagued Jon’s arch in season 2, or the unparalleled mess that was the Qarth plotline. Were D&D trying to improve on Martin, or attempting to harmlessly leave their own creative marks, or believing some book-plots “don’t apply so well on screen”, or something else, I honestly have no idea. But, they changed all of that – and many more – and the show is worse off because of it. And, once again back to the topic, the Red Wedding was worse off, because even with “bland” and “uninteresting” Jeyne (as some readers are describing her) Robb would’ve been a stronger character than he is with Talisa; that way, the emphasis would’ve been on his eagerness to go back to Winterfell and claim it once again for the Starks and revenge his kid brothers, and the tragedy of Red Wedding would’ve been much stronger. Not to mention how much Cat’s tragedy would’ve been stronger and memorable, if she wasn’t relegated to a side-character throughout the course of this season and the previous one.

I get that viewers around the world were really shocked with the Red Wedding scene. And many take it as the evidence of how great a show GoT is. But, let’s imagine the reaction if millions of readers did read RW chapter in exactly the same moment. For years now, readers are exchanging their own reactions to RW – imagine all those reactions simultaneously, in the same fucking moment. I guess it would’ve been a billion times bigger story and cultural phenomenon than the reaction of Unsullied on Sunday is. So, while nothing to sneeze at, the Sunday’s reaction perhaps isn’t the ultimate reaction that RW adaptation could’ve hoped for.

[Mr Fixit]

But, let’s imagine the reaction if millions of readers did read RW chapter in exactly the same moment. For years now, readers are exchanging their own reactions to RW – imagine all those reactions simultaneously, in the same fucking moment. I guess it would’ve been a billion times bigger story and cultural phenomenon than the reaction of Unsullied on Sunday is.

Now we're in a guessing territory.

And again, if that's what you think, more power to you! I appreciate an honest, no bullshit critique. I just urge the fans to drop the hyperbolic vitriol aimed at the creative team, as if D&D somehow personally offended them. It's silly.