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Ran

[Pre-ADwD Spoilers] Jon 1

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I'm a little surprised that all thing Stannis don't end up resulting in longer and more frequented threads. He is to me, the most "grey" character in the books. Complex as all hell. Good? Bad? Depends? Discuss!

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Made a post somewhere on this forums about him before, but ah I think he's interesting so here I go:

I think Stannis is a pretty pitiful man - he has not learned how to deal with the world he lives in, the only thing he is focuses on is the unjustice done to him and how to set that to rights. Even though he apparently does not want his kingdom, what he DOES want is justice to be done to him. His whole life he's been living in some kind of jealousy, since he never really learned to express positive emotions. The positive things about him would be that he's just and dutiful (and, arguably, straight to the point). However he takes this longing for justice ( not only to himself but for the whole world) to the extreme, to a point of total rigidity, where nothing can make up for a deed but punishment or reward. He is harsh so nobody really loves him, which probably only worsened his bluntness and harshness - he knows he does not have to flatter because nobody likes him anyway, and flattering is in his eyes dishonest as well.

That teeth-clenching he does all the time (It's my first association with stannis) is also a prime example of his feeling of unjustice. Instead of enjoying the things he had he chose to only think of what he didn't have (even though he should have had that by rights). Stannis does not seem to enjoy living. And after all what is justice for but to create a better world for people to be happier in? Stannis takes it so far that justice becomes an empty and meaningless thing - justice should serve humankind, and not the other way round.

Of course, I'm not taking Melisandre in account there - part of the reason he wants his kingdom is because of the war for the dawn et cetera et cetera. Stannis does not seem like a man who would easily buy the message of the red faith, and especially not the fact that he's Azor Ahai reborn. It looks like he does have an ego after all - he feels he SHOULD be azor ahai reborn, cause he thinks he's the best man. Like Renly did. I don't think he would have believed Melisandre otherwise, even with all the funny little tricks she does.

He's a grey character- like all characters are in aSoIaF, which is part of what makes the books so awesome. I think his intentions are good, but I pity him for being born as he is. I pity him for being raised as he was, and treated by his brothers as he was. I pity him for choosing to live his life like this.

Edit: You might notice somewhat that structurizing my ideas isn't my strong point:P

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Skagos is as good a place as any for Osha and rickon to hide out I suppose. I recall a ship being washed up on the beaches of skagos while sam was sailing by on his way to braavos, might that be how they got there?

I really glad to see other supporters of Skagos theory for Rickon. :)

Yes Skagos if Osha and Rickon managed to get there would be probably a perfect place for them to hide. No or little rumors would get out of the island and no enemies would be able to reach them there. Skagosi are warlike people so Rickon could get allies there and emerge back in force. They also could raise a fierce warrior out of him.

And of course description fits for Skagos and “enormous goat†could be “unicorn†from tales. Shaggy was hunting some unusual beast for sure and we don’t know other place in the North where strange beasts could dwell other then Skagos.

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I really glad to see other supporters of Skagos theory for Rickon. :)

Yes Skagos if Osha and Rickon managed to get there would be probably a perfect place for them to hide. No or little rumors would get out of the island and no enemies would be able to reach them there. Skagosi are warlike people so Rickon could get allies there and emerge back in force. They also could raise a fierce warrior out of him.

And of course description fits for Skagos and “enormous goat†could be “unicorn†from tales. Shaggy was hunting some unusual beast for sure and we don’t know other place in the North where strange beasts could dwell other then Skagos.

Mezeh, I came to the Skagos theory independently of you, and I still think it's a strong possibility, but I think an alliance with Rickon is unlikely for the Skagosi who don't seem to have any great liking for other Northmen. On the other hand I can totally see GRRM overturning the sterotypes Northmen have of the Skagosi and making them a fierce, tribal people with complicated customs but welcoming nonetheless. If we do see Rickon anytime in the near future, it will be through the eyes of Davos Seaworth. I shudder to think what the Skagosi will do to him.

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Grinachu, I’m aware that you’ve come to the theory independently and value that.

You are right Skagosi are little liked by other northmen like others little too but Starks are slightly other matter and the “winter is comingâ€. Skagos is not far from the Wall and it was mentioned that Skagosi visit Eastwatch by Sea. So they will be aware of what happens on the Wall. Others are common foe and while I don’t thisnl that Skagosi would join Starks in their fight with other lords war with Others would be a very different matter.

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Do you think Jon and Melisandre will become real allies? I'm starting to like her a bit more.

What about Ser Godry? Seems like it would be a helluva fight.

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Do you think Jon and Melisandre will become real allies? I'm starting to like her a bit more.

What about Ser Godry? Seems like it would be a helluva fight.

i've always believed that mel is sincere in what she says & does. if she thinks she was wrong obout stannin being pwwp then she will side with jon (assuming she thinks he is). i can see mel & the new high septon being simlar char in the future. both doing really bad things in the name of what they believe is the "correct" bigger picture. they kind of fill the tywin void.

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Do you think Jon and Melisandre will become real allies? I'm starting to like her a bit more.

What about Ser Godry? Seems like it would be a helluva fight.

I'd always assumed early on that there was something evil about Mel but it's getting harder to tell. That's GRRM for you.

I just reread this chapter and I love the banter between Jon and Stannis. When Jon objects, Stannis always comes back with some great line that amounts to an empty threat.

Anyone have any ideas about who is smiling to Jon's face that he needs to worry about? I think we are meant to believe that is one of Mel's more accurate predictions.

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Oh yay more of Jon being infuriating.

Family, Duty, Honour... Damm Catelyn, you could have atleast drilled that into him you useless...

"Oh my brother is north of the wall, pfft no matter."

"Oh the North is bleeding to death, pfft no matter."

"You know nothing, Jon Snow" yep ficker than Small Paul and then some.

Does Jon even beleive in Green Dreams? And bending too much to Stannis will hit him the face in the long run..

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Are the underlined passages in the ASOIAF sample on GRRM's websites changes to the chapter?

I assume they are passages he wants to italicize in the actual print run and he has underlined them here for that purpose.

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Yeah. Manuscripts use underscore for italics.

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There is one small tibbit that I had not seen mentioned yet on this thread.

Near halfway through a Storm of Swords, before the red wedding in a Catlyen chapter, Robb creates a document and has every lord in attendance afix their seal to it, concerning his heir and the legitimizing of Jon as a Stark. Now, Maege and Dacey Mormont were there, as were representatives of every noble "northern house" (including at the time, the River Lords), excepting the Frey's, Bolton's and Karstark's.

Does anyone else think this child Mormont girl could be refering to Jon in her rather brusque rebuttal to Stannis?

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Near halfway through a Storm of Swords, before the red wedding in a Catlyen chapter, Robb creates a document and has every lord in attendance afix their seal to it, concerning his heir and the legitimizing of Jon as a Stark. Now, Maege and Dacey Mormont were there, as were representatives of every noble "northern house" (including at the time, the River Lords), excepting the Frey's, Bolton's and Karstark's.

Maege Mormont and I think a Glover (I'm just prior to this point in my latest re-read so I'm sorry for not having the specific details) are bringing Robb's document north. I think that there are two things that will stop the letter and the contents of it coming to fruition.

Providing that Maege has survived her journey so far and there is nothing to say that the Frey's or indeed the Ironmen have not captured them. I think it is safe to say that they are going to be held up to some extent by the Ironborn, who at this point hold Moat Cailin. Maege (possibly with the help of the Crannogmen) is going to have to find a different route out of the Neck - unless they wait for the Iron Fleet (and Victarion Greyjoy) to leave before they journey north. Even then I find it particularly unlikely that Victarion is going to leave the Moat undefended.

Also I wonder how Lyanna Mormont would know of King Robb's legitimisation of Jon, it has been mentioned a number of times that it is common practice for the enemy to bring down ravens. So if Maege were to send a raven, especially from Greywater Watch, then the chances are that it has been brought down by now - and that information would be very dangerous.

The second point is that when the letter does arrive, and I am fairly certain that it will arrive towards the end of the book, that we will have a dramatic comparision between Maester Aemon Targaryen and Jon Snow - with Jon also choosing the wall. Which could unfortunatly leave Maege Mormont in a very difficult position; charged with high treason by a just man. I wonder though, would the Watch rally around Maege as she is the Old Bear's sister?

Anyway back to the point, I do not think that Lyanna is speaking of Jon in her letter, just that the Mormonts will only rise for the King in the North and that King must be a northman.

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Providing that Maege has survived her journey so far and there is nothing to say that the Frey's or indeed the Ironmen have not captured them. I think it is safe to say that they are going to be held up to some extent by the Ironborn, who at this point hold Moat Cailin. Maege (possibly with the help of the Crannogmen) is going to have to find a different route out of the Neck - unless they wait for the Iron Fleet (and Victarion Greyjoy) to leave before they journey north. Even then I find it particularly unlikely that Victarion is going to leave the Moat undefended.

They are very much aware of this -- the Ironborn have held the Neck for quite a while by the time Robb declares his heir. In fact, in that very same chapter, he explains a detailed plan to win Moat Cailin back to Catelyn.

The Mormonts will probably go straight to the crannogmen.

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Also I wonder how Lyanna Mormont would know of King Robb's legitimisation of Jon,

I know the theory of Jon's possible legitimization. But I don't think Jon is the Stark Lyanna Mormont is referring to. If you'll recall, Bran met a Liddle on his journey north. Those loyal to the Starks would certainly be in touch with one another. It's not a stretch to think the Liddle relayed the message that Bran lived.

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I've said it before and I'll say it again. Jon Snow's legitimacy as King in the North lay within Brenden Tully's underpants the day he quit Riverrun. Maege Mormont and any other lord who may have had a copy is either dead or stuck moat-side of the Neck. Robin Ryger and Desmond Grell also have copies of Jon's legit-King credentials tucked away in their smallclothes. How many underpants-stuffed nobles loyal to the direwolf does it take for Jon to forswear. Stannis might even use such a document for his own ends to get Jon to recant.

998th Lord Commander has a ring to it. Not so much as doomed 999th or lucky 1000th

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Maege Mormont most probably will survive her journey to the Neck yet no ravens flew there or out of there so it is unclear how news about Robb’s will could reach the Bear Island by the beginning of ADWD. Bran and Rickon survival is more interesting… Since Liddle that meet Bran looks like somebody with position of authority this is likely that mountain clans are aware that Robb’s heirs are alive. Could they have shared this information to Mormonts? I would say that this is possible.

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