[BOOK SPOILERS] Jaime?

[Le Cygne]

I agree it would be better for Jaime/Brienne to take action rather than react to events- but after all that, they would be sending her into LF's arms anyway. (What does Jaime think of Littlefinger, and does he realize how batshit Lysa is at this point? Tyrion certainly does) I guess I'm wanting them to take action, but thinking Jaime would balk at taking away Tyrion's wife. Maybe Brienne would act alone, frustrated with Jaime's hesitancy?

See above, I addressed some of this, but also, because a character doesn't have a crystal ball, and can't see the future, that doesn't mean as developed characters they would not do everything in their power to try to help someone their entire arc was build up toward helping. It's Jaime just allowing her to stay there in danger that we are objecting to. And Brienne would go crazy just accepting she was powerless, and you're darn right, she'd try everything she could, including fooling her if that was best. She swore an oath. That's like her mantra. She's pretty single minded about that.

I thought this, ruins the story arch slightly but it's better than dragging him and Brienne plodding about Westeros for 15 episodes (GRRM's fault not the shows)

Also wanted to address this part of your comment. Basically, you're saying the Brienne and Jaime chapters in AFFC are duds. But there are a lot of us who don't think so. There's a lot of character growth for both Brienne and Jaime in that book. And these are things a lot of nonreaders complain about, that they just can't get invested in the show characters, because they are too one dimensional.

[Cas Stark]

I don't think Brienne's war torn Westeros travel log did anything for her character development or anyone's character in the series in AFFC....but, the show has to figure out a way for Jamie and Brienne to appear to be keeping their oath while they are in KL with Sansa unless the PW is the first episode of S4 and then they can just ignore it.

[Serr Parker]

Also wanted to address this part of your comment. Basically, you're saying the Brienne and Jaime chapters in AFFC are duds. But there are a lot of us who don't think so. There's a lot of character growth for both Brienne and Jaime in that book. And these are things a lot of nonreaders complain about, that they just can't get invested in the show characters, because they are too one dimensional.

There is a lot of development, the chapters aren't 'duds' but I just did not find them interesting at all. I think the main change through their chapters is Jamie swaying from 'bad guy' to 'good guy' and we already got that this season. Plus They've been traveling for an entire season I personally think people would lose interest in them if they continued this walking around.

[Le Cygne]

I don't think Brienne's war torn Westeros travel log did anything for her character development or anyone's character in the series in AFFC....but, the show has to figure out a way for Jamie and Brienne to appear to be keeping their oath while they are in KL with Sansa unless the PW is the first episode of S4 and then they can just ignore it.

Hopefully, it's very early in season 4. But if you think there's no character development, even on a personal level (and people do like love stories, and call this one a non-romantic one if you like, but this is a love story, one of the show writers even said so), check out these quotes:

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/63197-odds-of-jaime-and-brienne-ending-up-together/page__st__240#entry3372068

[Weeping Sore]

I don't think Brienne's war torn Westeros travel log did anything for her character development or anyone's character in the series in AFFC....but, the show has to figure out a way for Jamie and Brienne to appear to be keeping their oath while they are in KL with Sansa unless the PW is the first episode of S4 and then they can just ignore it.

Brienne and Pod in the Riverlands is GRRM trying to write more Dunk & Egg, IMO. Enjoyable as long as you have no sense of urgency for the plot to move. We certainly won't see Nimble Dick and the squishers. Probably not Randall Tarly or Hyle Hunt. Maybe Quiet Isle, definitely killing Locke & Co., definitely Stoneheart.

[Cas Stark]

Hopefully, it's very early in season 4. But if you think there's no character development, even on a personal level (and people do like love stories, and call this one a non-romantic one if you like, but this is a love story, one of the show writers even said so), check out these quotes:

http://asoiaf.wester...40#entry3372068

I must be missing something. Jamie is not with Brienne during her travel log series. While yes I agree that theirs is a love story, I sure hope that the purpose of those endless chapters wasn't a few random thoughts about Jamie Lannister that she has.

[Sofokles]

This fucks up his redemption arc hard...

First he knows Sansa is in the KL he does nothing about it and when she escapes "oh that vow i swore, gonna do something about it"

[six]

Even if we look at Tyrion with rose colored glasses, bad stuff happened to Sansa while he was around. She remained a hostage. Joffrey had her publicly beaten. She was force married. Tywin is determined to get a Lannister heir, and even if Tyrion keeps his word, annul that marriage and force another Lannister on her. She's in danger every minute she's there. He also knows the Tyrells were plotting to marry Sansa, so there's political intrigue she can become embroiled in and... since we read the books, we know that happens. And now she's forced to stay with Littlefinger, who is pawing all over her.

1) She was force married. Tywin wants an heir. See above. Also, Tyrion should help her escape, too. He should have done it in the first place.

2) There are other relatives. But just somewhere safe, which is the current plan in the books, anyway. Dany was spirited away and lived to see another day. There's a whole world out there, and they've got money, smarts, and resources.

This. I blame the show, because they've stopped trying to get across the fact Sansa is a prisoner in KL, being manipulated by pretty much everyone, and that Tywin wants an heir. They give her silly chats with Margaery saying stuff like "omg, Tyrion is a dwarf!" whereas the biggest problem is the fact that he's a Lannister and she's coerced into it.

I don't think Brienne's war torn Westeros travel log did anything for her character development or anyone's character in the series in AFFC....but, the show has to figure out a way for Jamie and Brienne to appear to be keeping their oath while they are in KL with Sansa unless the PW is the first episode of S4 and then they can just ignore it.

I thought those chapters developed Brienne quite nicely. At first they gave an insight on who she is, and in the final chapters she's put in a position in which she has to make a pretty heartbreaking choice. If I hadn't got to know her in the previous chapters, I don't think I would have cared as much for her fate and the conundrum she finds herself in.

However, I do realise that sending her on that sort of quest in the show would not work (and that's why I would scrap the idea of Brienne looking for Arya, because it's even more senseless), and that since she and Jaime are reunited it would maybe make sense to keep them together and not separate them at all; she could stick with Jaime and just separate briefly to follow a lead on Sansa and/or Arya and be captured by the BwB then. But for as long as they're all in KL, it's important they make a point they're trying to do something. Or else it ruins much of the characterisation of those involved and the plot, too.

On a different note, it's so annoying to see people going on about Brienne being arrested because Loras will accuse her of Renly's murder like in the books. In the show he actually said that he doesn't believe Brienne did it, with these actual words, so it wasn't even ambiguous. So if Brienne is arrested, and I say IF, it would be for different reasons. Many of D&D's choices are questionable, but I want to believe they're not going to retcon their own changes because it would be beyond stupid.

[Le Cygne]

I must be missing something. Jamie is not with Brienne during her travel log series. While yes I agree that theirs is a love story, I sure hope that the purpose of those endless chapters wasn't a few random thoughts about Jamie Lannister that she has.

Random thoughts? That selection was compiled with an eye to the love story part, but there's much more.

She goes from someone who had a crush on someone because he was nice to her, to grown up, full fledged love for someone she comes to care deeply about in very complex ways.

She goes from someone who was so reluctant to kill, she cried when her master at arms had her slaughter a pig, to someone who killed the men who threatened to rape her and who cut off Jaime's hand, and she does it for him.

And we see just how much she's changed, and it's because of her time with him. This is what he was trying to show her, when they talked about true knights, and he told her the reality was different. And that's just her side of it, he's undergoing just as great a transformation. She's changed him, too, he's seeing why people want to believe in true knights. They meet somewhere in the middle.

Both of them together are trying to do this really noble thing, save Sansa Stark from harm. It's a joint quest. They're apart, but they're not. Because they are each driving the other from a distance. And this all leads to the scene in ADWD, when they meet up again.

[silentwanderer]

I think Jaime & Brienne's arcs have to end up at the same point they currently are in the books (Stoneheart), and I think it's no accident that Gendry is in the same place. I'll spare you the details this time, but the three of them have to make it to King's Landing after dealing (somehow) with Lady Stoneheart.

Gendry's not going to rejoin the BwB based on how they treated him. But he might feel bad about abandoning Arya and not trust that she is safe with the BwB after they sold him out and after hearing how Arya's mother was murdered. Gendry alone (in KL) knows that Arya is alive. So he has motivation to aide Brienne in seeking out Arya in the Riverlands, he just needs the occasion to encounter Jaime/Brienne...

I think this scenario is more likely because most of the clues Brienne gets on the book - a Stark girl on the run with The Hound, a Stark child escaping the Brotherhood, a Stark girl almost sold to the Tullys before the Red Wedding - are about Arya anyway.

We know Gendry is the only one who can identify Arya as she looks like right now, we know Brienne has never seen either one of the Stark girls and, chances are, she's not going to see one if only because she gets arrested in King's Landing shortly after Jaime's arrival.

It makes far more sense to me to send Brienne on her way with someone who knows which person are trying to find (Gendry), especially because we know Sansa's escape route is not going to change no matter what happens on the show.

I don't think Brienne's war torn Westeros travel log did anything for her character development or anyone's character in the series in AFFC....but, the show has to figure out a way for Jamie and Brienne to appear to be keeping their oath while they are in KL with Sansa unless the PW is the first episode of S4 and then they can just ignore it.

One of the main problems I had with the book, is that Jaime is left to find Arya when it made more sense for him to search for his sister in law (Sansa). That and the fact most of the clues Brienne gets before she met Stoneheart were about Arya.

[The Monkey]

This fucks up his redemption arc hard...

First he knows Sansa is in the KL he does nothing about it and when she escapes "oh that vow i swore, gonna do something about it"

Well, her family is dead, and she's married to show-Tyrion, the best guy in the universe. Not such a bad deal. They might include a scene or two where Jaime asks Sansa if Tywion is treating her well. She says yes, and Jaime concludes that she's in as good a position as she will ever be.

[Weeping Sore]

Random thoughts? That selection was compiled with an eye to the love story part, but there's much more.

She goes from someone who had a crush on someone because he was nice to her, to grown up, full fledged love for someone she comes to care deeply about in very complex ways.

She goes from someone who was so reluctant to kill, she cried when her master at arms had her slaughter a pig, to someone who killed the men who threatened to rape her and who cut off Jaime's hand, and she does it for him.

And we see just how much she's changed, and it's because of her time with him. This is what he was trying to show her, when they talked about true knights, and he told her the reality was different. And that's just her side of it, he's undergoing just as great a transformation. She's changed him, too, he's seeing why people want to believe in true knights. They meet somewhere in the middle.

Both of them together are trying to do this really noble thing, save Sansa Stark from harm. It's a joint quest. They're apart, but they're not. Because they are each driving the other from a distance. And this all leads to the scene in ADWD, when they meet up again.

Well said. Just as the "dishonorable" sapphires lie saved her, she will likely save Jamie by breaking her oath to Lady Stoneheart.

Why am I now imagining Jaime proclaiming his oath to Tywin, demanding that the Stark girls be returned, only to have Tywin tell him about Tyrion's wedding and the Red Wedding, generally making Jaime feel like a fool. (Since that's what Tywin does to his children)

So what does Jaime do? And what does Brienne do? Do the Tyrells take Brienne under their protection, as Selwin Tarth is their bannerman, and Show Loras doesn't blame her for Renly's death? Maybe this would make some Brienne/Sansa facetime more likely, and the proposal to have the great tow-headed plank escort Sansa to the Eyrie.

[silentwanderer]

Well, her family is dead, and she's married to show-Tyrion, the best guy in the universe. Not such a bad deal. They might include a scene or two where Jaime asks Sansa if Tywion is treating her well. She says yes, and Jaime concludes that she's in as good a position as she will ever be.

I think the show has to give Sansa & Tyrion's marriage a chance, or else it makes no sense for him to stay faithful to her after the Purple Wedding, nor for her objections to a new husband after Littlefinger takes her away.

The characters should feel conflicted about the separation, not thrilled to get rid of one another.

[amrosoronar]

Purists...

[six]

Purists...

What a useful contribution.

[Chickren]

So what does Jaime do? And what does Brienne do? Do the Tyrells take Brienne under their protection, as Selwin Tarth is their bannerman, and Show Loras doesn't blame her for Renly's death?

Tarth is a Stormlands house.

[Weeping Sore]

Tarth is a Stormlands house.

You are correct- I was mentally conflating Renly with the Tyrells, my mistake.

ETA: One more post and you're a Hedge Knight!

[Ser Vile]

The general assumption on this board seems to be that Jaime takes up his Kingsguard post immediately on arrival at KL, as per the book. As I see it, neither book-Jaime nor TV-Jaime would be likely to do so if he arrives before the PW. It was not his arrival at KL or his reuniting with Cersei which propelled him into action so much as it was the death of Joffrey and accusation against Tyrion. With an early arrival and without that kick in the arse, I don't see Jaime taking up his post on the kingsguard right away. He's beat up. tired, and oh yeah -- freshly missing his sword hand. His last scene wasn't really about Cersei, it was about his sense of impotence (following as it did, his failure to be recognized at the gate.) WIth Sansa married to his brother, Catelyn and Robb dead, and Starks otherwise very difficult to find, I don't see him getting right on with rescuing her either. The arrival is a much less important impetus than the events to follow.

So, I don't see the early arrival as much of a problem for his redemption arc. Joffrey will die, Tyrion will escape to self-exile, Tywin will die, and Jaime will find some honor in how he handles things.

[Ser Vile]

... and if I were show-runner I would leave Ser Dontos out of LF's conspiracy altogether. With the role and motivations they have created for Shae in the series, she is perfectly capable of secretly shuttling Sansa out of town at LF's behest. This would make more sense of her rejection of Varys's money (she isn't noble; she just had a better offer) and is consistent with her smoldering resentment over Tyrion's marriage to Sansa. It would fit so well with the other part of LF's plan which she supports -- getting Tyrion to shoulder the blame for Joffrey's murder.

[Weeping Sore]

... and if I were show-runner I would leave Ser Dontos out of LF's conspiracy altogether. With the role and motivations they have created for Shae in the series, she is perfectly capable of secretly shuttling Sansa out of town at LF's behest. This would make more sense of her rejection of Varys's money (she isn't noble; she just had a better offer) and is consistent with her smoldering resentment over Tyrion's marriage to Sansa. It would fit so well with the other part of LF's plan which she supports -- getting Tyrion to shoulder the blame for Joffrey's murder.

Intriguing. It might feel a little bit like a cheat for the audience though, because most of the KL machinations thus far have been made on-screen.(to a fault, IMO)