[BOOK SPOILERS] Jaime?

[silentwanderer]

To take her where? Her brother and mother are dead, her uncles are prisoners and her younger brothers are presumed dead too. Not to mention, they promised 2 girls and Arya is still missing.

Brienne would have a hard time grieving for Lady Catelyn, dealing with Cersei Lannister and trying to make sense of Arya's whereabouts for it to be a present matter,

Anywhere but KL and the Lannisters? They could take her to her aunt, for starters. Better than being kept as a prisoner, forced to be married in the family who killed her own, waiting to be impregnated and then be disposed of, once the Lannisters have a claim to Winterfell.

I suppose the Vale could always be an option, even it means repeating the same plot from the books but the fact remains Jaime & Brienne promised two girls and one of them is not in King's Landing.

Even if they have no idea Lysa Arryn conspired with Littefinger to put the Starks against the Lannister, Jaime & Brienne wouldn't fulfill their vow with only half of the promise they made to Catelyn Stark.

Not to mention, Rickon is already on his way to the Umbers and the Last Home, which completely changes the game if only because the northerns are most likely to gather around the last male heir of Winterfell than support any claim based on one of the girls.

[Le Cygne]

I suppose the Vale could always be an option, even it means repeating the same plot from the books but the fact remains Jaime & Brienne promised two girls and one of them is not in King's Landing.

So they should just stand by and do nothing for the one right there?

[silentwanderer]

So they should just stand by and do nothing for the one right there?

I'm thinking the best option is for Jaime & Brienne to search for Arya first, then send both girls to Rickon at the Umbers.

That gives Littlefinger enough time to plot Joffrey's assassination with Olenna and snatch Sansa from under their noses.

Of course, it ruins any plan Baelish may have had for Sansa, if only because Rickon and his claim are safe at the Umbers's.

And it also could eliminate the fake Arya plot: there's no point for Ramsay to marry a Stark girl as long as the actual heir of Winterfell is alive and well.

[six]

I'm thinking the best option is for Jaime & Brienne to search for Arya first, then send both girls to Rickon at the Umbers.

That gives Littlefinger enough time to plot Joffrey's assassination with Olenna and snatch Sansa from under their noses.

Of course, it ruins any plan Baelish may have had for Sansa, if only because Rickon and his claim are safe at the Umbers's.

And it also could eliminate the fake Arya plot: there's no point for Ramsay to marry a Stark girl as long as the actual heir of Winterfell is alive and well.

To search for Arya first doesn't make any sense. First, they send the girl they do have away from KL, and then they look for Arya. But Sansa is there and can be helped, it would be illogical if they did not.

[Danelle]

The sequence in the books was perfect, that's the thing. This just breaks my heart.

Also when Jaime gets back, he smacks down the Kingsguard for beating Sansa. The whole point is, things would have been different if he had been there.

If he had gotten there early, he would have talked Tyrion into helping Sansa escape (rather than marrying her). He helped Tyrion escape, he would have done the same for Sansa. Sansa can pretend she's happy all she wants (that makes no sense but the show seems to think it does). But Jaime knows, like Robb knew, that when they get an heir out of her, and that's when, not if, she just got a stay on that bedding thing, they'll kill her. Now that he's there if he doesn't do something to help her escape, and most importantly, if Brienne doesn't, what does that say about them? This is what everything was building up to, that they were going to help Sansa.

The problem is not even only regarding Sansa, there's a lot of other things that will not happen or will happen in a much different and worse way.

So, we have:

- No morbid and urgent sex scene between Cersei and Jaime next to Joffrey's dead body. Yes, it was awful, but that was the point. It would be awesome to incite a reaction on people.

- Jaime and Tyrion's first and last conversation after Jaime's imprisonment occurred when Jaime freed and saved Tyrion from his inevitable fate. The fact that was the first time they saw and talked to each other since Jaime finally came back was what made that scene even more incredible. Now, on the TV show, not happening that way.

- No Jaime blaming the current members of the Kingsguard.

- And of course the worst, the whole thing revolving around Sansa. Yeah, they will find some way around it, but it will most likely be a poor excuse. They'll probably have Tywin stopping Jaime from taking her away or something to that extent, creating even more of a fallout between both. But that didn't stop Jaime from freeing Tyrion, so why should it stop Jaime from rescuing Sansa? Might be he planned to do it after Joffrey's wedding, but we all know how that turned out. After all, it might actually make sense doing it this way.

I'm still wondering how in the hell they will make Sansa escape with Baelish. They haven't done much regarding this yet, whilst in the books it was a long process that involved Dontos. They'll probably make Sansa flee the scene, then LF appears out of nowhere and takes her way. Weak, but whatever.

I am afraid that I agree....Ι too wandered what would have happened if Jaime had arrived in KL before the PW. Joffrey's reaction will be priceless, one uncle is a dwarf, the other is a cripple. But Jaime reuniting with Sansa, is wrong, just wrong. This return destroys his character and his motives. Not to mention that it reduces the impact that the development of his character has on the story.

In the second part of SOS, Jaime's late arrival is crucial. In order to save Brienne he lost Joffrey and as a consequence, Tyrion, Tommen, Tywin and Cersei. The things he does for love. Jaime was told by Cersei that Tyrion killed Joffrey, then Loras assured him that Sansa had poisoned his firstborn. Jaime has every reason to believe that Tyrion and Sansa had committed the crime. Even if his love for Tyrion was stronger, he had no reason to care for the Stark girl, whose disappearance made her look more guilty and placed Tyrion in a dire position. And yet, he betrayed his House, his King, his lover and send Brienne to her quest.

It is as if they want to create an entirely different character...

I still hope that Dontos will return in season 4, Sansa needs her Florian and LF needs someone to betray.

[Le Cygne]

I'm thinking the best option is for Jaime & Brienne to search for Arya first, then send both girls to Rickon at the Umbers.

Meanwhile leave Sansa at the mercy of the ones who left her at the mercy of Joffrey?

They didn't send her back to her family when it was the right thing to do, they murdered her family.

Nobody there gives a damn about Sansa, other than what's in it for them.

Totally not buying the Shae devotion, and besides, what's she going to do vs. the Lannisters.

[silentwanderer]

To search for Arya first doesn't make any sense.

It does if Ramsay is pretending to marry the real Arya to secure his father's role as Warden of the North.

Remember: as of this season, Ramsay is the only one who knows for a fact Theon didn't kill Bran and Rickon. And he's not afraid to play dirty once that Rickon, the actual heir of Winterfell, resurface with the Umbers.

Roose Bolton is only Warden until Sansa & Tyrion produce a son. If Sansa disappears, that's no longer an issue. Ramsay could very well use Jaime & Brienne's inability to find Arya to his own advantage.

Especially once the northerns start to rally around Rickon.

[Katydid]

I really do wonder if D&D took everything into consideration in the writers' room, when they first started kicking around the idea of "Yeah, let's bring Jaime back before the PW!" Not only how it affects Jaime's story, but how it affects Brienne's, Sansa's, Cersei's...am I forgetting someone? :(

[Danelle]

I really do wonder if D&D took everything into consideration in the writers' room, when they first started kicking around the idea of "Yeah, let's bring Jaime back before the PW!" Not only how it affects Jaime's story, but how it affects Brienne's, Sansa's, Cersei's...am I forgetting someone? :(

Tyrion, Tywin, the Tyrells, in the books Tywin wanted to marry Jaime to Margaery, Oberyn to a certain extent-Jaime would have been Tyrion's champion if he hadn't lost his hand, Joffrey, Tommen- now that Robert is dead Jaime wants to reveal his relationship to Cersei, LF wants to keep Sansa for his plans and basically works against Jaime and Brienne, and Varys, let us not forget Varys.

[Chickren]

I really do wonder if D&D took everything into consideration in the writers' room, when they first started kicking around the idea of "Yeah, let's bring Jaime back before the PW!" Not only how it affects Jaime's story, but how it affects Brienne's, Sansa's, Cersei's...am I forgetting someone? :(

Tyrion.

[six]

I really do wonder if D&D took everything into consideration in the writers' room, when they first started kicking around the idea of "Yeah, let's bring Jaime back before the PW!" Not only how it affects Jaime's story, but how it affects Brienne's, Sansa's, Cersei's...am I forgetting someone? :(

I don't think they have. As another poster pointed out in another thread, sometimes it seem like they care more about a series of cool scenes rather than the whole story. Like they thought it would be really cool for Jaime to be at the PW and they just went with it, sod everything else.

It does if Ramsay is pretending to marry the real Arya to secure his father's role as Warden of the North.

Remember: as of this season, Ramsay is the only one who knows for a fact Theon didn't kill Bran and Rickon. And he's not afraid to play dirty once that Rickon, the actual heir of Winterfell, resurface with the Umbers.

Roose Bolton is only Warden until Sansa & Tyrion produce a son. If Sansa disappears, that's no longer an issue. Ramsay could very well use Jaime & Brienne's inability to find Arya to his own advantage.

Especially once the northerns start to rally around Rickon.

Ok, but they have Sansa right there, so why not having Arya would stop them from doing anything about Sansa? I don't see the reason. She's kept as a prisoner in KL and she's right under their eyes and within reach. It's better to keep half of their promise than none at all cause they have to look for Arya first.

[Cas Stark]

Everyone in the show thinks Arya is dead, so it would not make any sense for Brienne to set out looking for Arya, who everyone thinks is dead and ignore Sansa, who is right there in the Red Keep.

So, it will be interesting to see how GOT addresses this knot they've created for themselves and which character they decide to make look stupid, Jamie, Sansa or Brienne. Or, alternatively, if they have the PW in the very first episode they can ignore the issue altogether and let the viewer come up with his/her own excuses for why Jamie and Brienne were in KL and failed to attempt help Sansa.

[silentwanderer]

It does if Ramsay is pretending to marry the real Arya to secure his father's role as Warden of the North.

Remember: as of this season, Ramsay is the only one who knows for a fact Theon didn't kill Bran and Rickon. And he's not afraid to play dirty once that Rickon, the actual heir of Winterfell, resurface with the Umbers.

Roose Bolton is only Warden until Sansa & Tyrion produce a son. If Sansa disappears, that's no longer an issue. Ramsay could very well use Jaime & Brienne's inability to find Arya to his own advantage.

Especially once the northerns start to rally around Rickon.

Ok, but they have Sansa right there, so why not having Arya would stop them from doing anything about Sansa? I don't see the reason. She's kept as a prisoner in KL and she's right under their eyes and within reach. It's better to keep half of their promise than none at all cause they have to look for Arya first.

This is about honor, not about the King in the North: Jaime and Brienne wouldn't fulfill their vow if they only return one sister to Rickon Stark, they have to give him both just like they promised to his mother.

Its not like Rickon won't have his own battles to fight, whether its against Ramsay & Bolton (as Warden of the North) or his own aunt and the Vale (once he figures out Lysa & Baelish's roles in the downfall of his family).

Remember: as of this season, Rickon's role is much more important than it ever was on the books.

[Le Cygne]

I guess they thought a Robb/Talisa-style Jaime/Cersei reunion would cap the season off just right.

They don't have to find the same things compelling that a bazillion fans do, odd couples like Jaime and Brienne, and Sansa and the Hound, but maybe, just maybe, they could just once acknowledge that they might not have the best instincts about these things, and consider those bazillion fans might just be onto something.

Their idea of compelling is Robb and Talisa..

Call it brotherly and sisterly love if you want (that's always especially funny in this case, what with Jaime and sisters and all), but Jaime and Brienne clearly meant a lot to each other. They ended the bearpit scene without closure (closure they gave to Jaime and Locke instead, bypassing a couple of perfect lines those bazillion fans were dying to hear). So surely a little closure in the next scene? No.

[Mendoza]

Everyone in the show thinks Arya is dead, so it would not make any sense for Brienne to set out looking for Arya, who everyone thinks is dead and ignore Sansa, who is right there in the Red Keep.

Lord Petyr Baelish knows Arya is alive, he indicated as much to Sansa in their scene by the docks.

Gendry, Hot Pie, Jaqen H'ghar, The Brotherhood Without Banners, even presumably Melisande, the Hound. Plenty of people know Arya Stark is alive.

If Jaime hadn't lived his life as a man without honor, perhaps he'd have better networking and would get a tip from out in the field.

[six]

I guess they thought a Robb/Talisa-style Jaime/Cersei reunion would cap the season off just right.

They don't have to find the same things compelling that a bazillion fans do, odd couples like Jaime and Brienne, and Sansa and the Hound, but maybe, just maybe, they could just once acknowledge that they might not have the best instincts about these things, and consider those bazillion fans might just be onto something.

Their idea of compelling is Robb and Talisa..

Call it brotherly and sisterly love if you want (that's always especially funny in this case, what with Jaime and sisters and all), but Jaime and Brienne clearly meant a lot to each other. They ended the bearpit scene without closure (closure they gave to Jaime and Locke instead, bypassing a couple of perfect lines those bazillion fans were dying to hear). So surely a little closure in the next scene? No.

I was disappointed. To me the fact they got no closure shows they really don't care about the Jaime/Brienne dynamic. Funny, because Jaime/Brienne and Dany have been the most popular storylines this season, so maybe they should re-evaluate. At the same time they turned Cersei into such an unrecognisable woobie, that show only viewers now feel sorry for this sad and lonely lady trapped in this world and want her and Jaime to be happy. This season Cersei has been whitewashed to a ridiculous degree, and Sansa is made to appear downright stupid at this point. They favour some characters, and treat others like crap.

[Mendoza]

The only way I think whitewashing Cercei makes sense is if the death/murder of King Tommen is even worse than King Joffrey's and its shown in the book as her pov.

[Cas Stark]

The only real issue with Cersei's character this season is that she has become so buddy buddy with Tyrion, she didn't bat an eyelash when he threatened Joff this last time and even came to his room to give him some sisterly advice.

So, when she totally turns on him in an instant at the wedding it will be very abrupt. But, the show likes abrupt, so maybe that's why they're doing it.

[six]

The only way I think whitewashing Cercei makes sense is if the death/murder of King Tommen is even worse than King Joffrey's and its shown in the book as her pov.

I don't understand, why would it make sense?

IMO, they've whitewashed Cersei because they don't care. She was whitewashed in season 1 and 2 as well, but by season 3 they just made her into what the showrunners wanted her to be. Also LH hasn't read the books, so she has her own take on the character, which I guess has nothing to do with her book counterpart, by looking at the way she plays Cersei.

The only real issue with Cersei's character this season is that she has become so buddy buddy with Tyrion, she didn't bat an eyelash when he threatened Joff this last time and even came to his room to give him some sisterly advice.

So, when she totally turns on him in an instant at the wedding it will be very abrupt. But, the show likes abrupt, so maybe that's why they're doing it.

This is the major issue, I agree.

[Le Cygne]

I was disappointed. To me the fact they got no closure shows they really don't care about the Jaime/Brienne dynamic.

I know. It's like they have to put things in a box. I keep brining up Robb/Talisa because that's their baby, from start to finish. That's what they consider romantic. Something can be romantic that's just the way something is done, like the way he jumped into the bear pit and said "I only rescue maidens". But it doesn't have to end in a love affair, or even a kiss. Maybe they never see each other again. But maybe it means a lot to them, just the same. Why do they think the only thing we want to see is those Robb/Talisa type things? Haven't we seen all of that before?