NBA Post Season - (and Finals PTSD therapy thread)

[aeu]

Speaking of stephens, you guys remember how the Spurs cut Stephen Jackson in April? I wonder how the Finals would have looked if Jackson got some of Ginobli's minutes.

Wow, I completely forgot about that. He potentially could have played some of Green's minutes in the last game as well. Really, they just needed one more guy to potentially give them something...Damn!

[Relic]

Wow, I completely forgot about that. He potentially could have played some of Green's minutes in the last game as well. Really, they just needed one more guy to potentially give them something...Damn!

Ironically,

Jackson insists Popovich wanted him to admit Green and Ginobili were better. More than likely, Popovich simply told Jackson they were better. That’s why they were playing instead of him.

http://www.thebiglead.com/index.php/2013/06/05/stephen-jackson-thinks-the-spurs-cut-him-because-he-wouldnt-admit-danny-green-and-manu-ginobili-were-better-than-him/

Maith, i used to love TMac. Always wanted to see him succeed. That would have been an awesome story line.

[Sir Thursday]

I agree the best players were Leonard and Duncan and it really wasn't close. But I disagree that the Spurs will be back. They had good injury luck to get them this far. If they somehow were completely heathy in the playoffs again next year, it is possible that they could win the West, but not certain. But the Big 3 from San Antonio are never going to beat the Big 3 from Miami, this was their last shot at that. Duncan was already unable to play the minutes needed to close out the Finals, and next year is going to be even harder. What faint hopes the Spurs have is that Leonard becomes an all-star and the rest of the team can start to really lean on him (the same way the Celtics Big 3 stayed relevant for a couple extra years thanks to Rondo).

IMO, the big threats to Miami are in the East: Indiana and Chicago. OKC management seems to be content with getting worse. But if Rose is back to being Rose and the Bulls can manage their guys minutes intelligently, then Rose+Noah+Deng have a chance against Miami. And Indiana isn't a great team, but they are a matchup nightmare for Miami. If Hibbert continues to get better, Granger can be a contributor, and their point guard play improves just a little, then they have the tools to win.

I agree that it is unlikely the Spurs will be back in the finals, although I don't think you can write them off completely. My thinking is that the West is going to continue to be a minefield to navigate through for years to come due to the number of young teams on the up rather than the Spurs' level necessarily regressing all that much.

I don't share your pessimism about OKC - yes they made some poor moves this year, but if Westbrook is healthy this is still a championship calibre core and they've got a big enough stable of young prospects that they will probably be able to bring through one or two players to shore up the team. Not to mention that Durant, Westbrook and Ibaka are all still young and all still have some areas to improve on (although eventually Durant is going to run out :P).

Of the other incumbents, the Clippers could make waves if any of this 'Boston West' stuff actually comes to pass, especially now they might get a more dynamic coach than Del Negro. The Spurs brutally exposed the flaws in Memphis' system this post-season, and unless they can reload with some better outside shooting and a more effective Z-Bo, I would project them to be on the down-slope.

Then you look at the young squads coming through - Golden State and Houston should both be better next year (I would include Denver in this too, but a lot of it is dependent on whether they can piece together the smoking ruins of their FO/coaching structure). They'll be aiming for the Conference Finals next year I should think, and while I'm not sure that they'll reach that goal as is (all bets are off if the Rockets pick up a high calibre FA though) they're also going to be a tough challenge for anyone who has the misfortune to face them in the post-season.

I don't think we should be so quick to call time on San Antonio's big 3 though. It's true that Ginobili has been a shadow of himself all year, and it's probably fair to assume that his play will tail off further next year. but Parker still has plenty more years in him, and I've seen very little sign that age is starting to affect Duncan. Combine that with the emergence of Kawhi Leonard (if I had to pick the best Spurs player in the finals, I think I'd choose him over Duncan) and I think you've got a core that is still going to be strong for the next couple of years. Unlike Boston, I trust the San Antonio front office to be able to fill in the gaps with quality players and keep things rolling along. It's just that I think that rather than having that advantage over the rest of the field that elevates you to 'title contender' status during the season, the Spurs will be back in the pack now. You can still make it out of the West from there, but not with any consistency, especially with so many teams vying for power.

ST

[Maithanet]

I don't share your pessimism about OKC - yes they made some poor moves this year, but if Westbrook is healthy this is still a championship calibre core and they've got a big enough stable of young prospects that they will probably be able to bring through one or two players to shore up the team. Not to mention that Durant, Westbrook and Ibaka are all still young and all still have some areas to improve on (although eventually Durant is going to run out :P).

I agree with most of what you have here, although I don't think that teams like GS, Houston and Denver are legit title contenders unless they add another All-Star. If that happens we'll talk. Clippers and Lakers are the same way. At the moment, those rosters are not going to win a championship, or even the West. But they could always pull off some crazy trade and become contenders.

OKC, I agree they are absolutely in the mix to win the West with the core of Durant/Westbrook/Ibaka. The problem is that they are much less talented without Harden, and so in order to win a title, Durant/Westbrook/Ibaka need to improve so much that they are better than they were wwhen Harden was still there. I'm not sure that's possible (and frankly I wonder if Ibaka is really all that. I'm starting to think he only gets the attention he does because of how much pressure Westbrook and Durant put on teams). Maybe OKC can find someone else to help out their Big 2, but until they do, I don't think they can beat Miami.

I don't think we should be so quick to call time on San Antonio's big 3 though. It's true that Ginobili has been a shadow of himself all year, and it's probably fair to assume that his play will tail off further next year. but Parker still has plenty more years in him, and I've seen very little sign that age is starting to affect Duncan. Combine that with the emergence of Kawhi Leonard (if I had to pick the best Spurs player in the finals, I think I'd choose him over Duncan) and I think you've got a core that is still going to be strong for the next couple of years. Unlike Boston, I trust the San Antonio front office to be able to fill in the gaps with quality players and keep things rolling along. It's just that I think that rather than having that advantage over the rest of the field that elevates you to 'title contender' status during the season, the Spurs will be back in the pack now. You can still make it out of the West from there, but not with any consistency, especially with so many teams vying for power.

Making it out of the West is possible, but not likely. But I totally disagree with your statement that there is little sign of aging in Duncan. He was not himself in the 4th quarter of games 6 and 7, and to me age/fatigue is the obvious reason. He knows how to be an All-Pro, but his body just isn't capable of doing it for the entire game anymore. I think that if the Spurs could afford to play him for 25 minutes a game even in the playoffs (and in the Finals they ABSOLUTELY could not afford that) then he could still be dominant Timmy. But instead he is just stretched too thin. Even the Big Fundamental can't do it forever.

[Jaime L]

I don't buy Stephen Jackson would've been better than the guys they had out there. Dude played in 55 games and was shooting 37% overall and 27% from 3. Even though it seems like crazy never ages, Stephen Jackson is 35 now and those stats indicate he was pretty done.

That didn't mean Pop had to cut him, but knowing what we know of Captain Jack, could easily see him being a disruption where the Spurs who remained were pretty much like International Superfriends.

[Ken Stone]

I haven't followed NBA much since Stockton and Malone left the Jazz, however I love basketball and was intrigued by the weird way the finals were unfolding. I decided to DVR and watch game 7, which is the first full NBA game I've watched this decade at least.

For the most part I was rooting for Miami, just because I know everyone hates them. However I quickly realized I hate them too. There was 3 offensive series in a row where Wade dribbled the ball down the court, did a couple fake crossovers before hitting a fade away jumper. That seemed to be the extent of the Miami offense. Give it to Wade or James and everyone stands around and watches them take a jumper. F#ck that noise. I play bball a couple of times a week and I hate guys who do that. It's like why the f#ck did I even bother jogging to this side of the court? I could have just sat down and watched you from half court and saved some energy.

BBall is a team game dammit!

[Maithanet]

I haven't followed NBA much since Stockton and Malone left the Jazz, however I love basketball and was intrigued by the weird way the finals were unfolding. I decided to DVR and watch game 7, which is the first full NBA game I've watched this decade at least.

For the most part I was rooting for Miami, just because I know everyone hates them. However I quickly realized I hate them too. There was 3 offensive series in a row where Wade dribbled the ball down the court, did a couple fake crossovers before hitting a fade away jumper. That seemed to be the extent of the Miami offense. Give it to Wade or James and everyone stands around and watches them take a jumper. F#ck that noise. I play bball a couple of times a week and I hate guys who do that. It's like why the f#ck did I even bother jogging to this side of the court? I could have just sat down and watched you from half court and saved some energy.

BBall is a team game dammit!

I hear that, and the funny thing is that is the most effective offense that Miami has. When they tried to do a lot of team basketball the Spurs defense was much better at stopping it. The Heat is all about having James/Wade in ISOs and everybody else spread the floor. If the help comes, they'll gladly kick it out for the 3-pointer, but if not, it's 1v1 basketball all day.

[Rhom]

I hear that, and the funny thing is that is the most effective offense that Miami has. When they tried to do a lot of team basketball the Spurs defense was much better at stopping it. The Heat is all about having James/Wade in ISOs and everybody else spread the floor. If the help comes, they'll gladly kick it out for the 3-pointer, but if not, it's 1v1 basketball all day.

I blame equal parts Wade and public pressure for that. Lebron is a fantastic passer/facilitator. Unfortunately, if they had lost a close game last night and he had put up 14 points and 20 assists; he would have been absolutely creamed for not scoring more. :dunno:

In the midst of all this, the talk on Sports Radio seems to be "What move should the Heat make to three-peat next year?" Most mention moving Bosch, but no one ever seems to say for who.

So I got to thinking about some options. What the Heat need is obviously a big man who can pass the ball. Going through the names of elite bigs in the game doesn't take long these days. Obviously, Dwight Howard is out of the discussion. But what about his teammate? D'Antoni never seemed to know what to do with Gasol and Howard at the same time... wouldn't Bosch's love of the perimeter fit the system in LA perfectly? And wouldn't Gasol be a sublime fit in Miami? I think it could really work, and the salaries ought to be somewhat comparable (I'm sure Bosch makes more, so maybe you need to throw in a Jodie Meeks or something to make it work).

If Pau doesn't work... maybe you could go for his brother? Memphis got exposed as needing some more scoring punch. The drawback is that San Antonio showed very effectively that Bosch may not be the scorer he was in Toronto; but then again, maybe getting him away from Wade/Lebron would return a bit of that to his game.

Surely the Knicks would never be so foolish as to trade Tyson Chandler.

Lopez from the Nets? The picks are getting a lot less sexy now. His contract is a bit big for my liking, but he can put up the numbers the Heat would need in the paint. Cousins from the Kings? We discussed him to the Cavs, his shooting percentage is a bit low and I don't know that Spo is the kind of coach he needs to be successful.

Its fun to go with the "What ifs?"

[Reposado]

If Pau doesn't work... maybe you could go for his brother? Memphis got exposed as needing some more scoring punch. The drawback is that San Antonio showed very effectively that Bosch may not be the scorer he was in Toronto; but then again, maybe getting him away from Wade/Lebron would return a bit of that to his game.

this the one that can't happen. memphis would (or well should) demand both wade and bosh for gasol 2

[Maithanet]

The problem is that Bosh isn't worth his contract at this point, and that means most teams aren't going to be willing to take him on. The only trade that even sort of makes sense would be Pau for Bosh, because they both have bloated contracts (I think Pau actually makes more than Bosh, but I haven't checked). Pau's game would fit very well with Miami, and I imagine that Bosh could do some good on the Lakers. He would love to have Howard to take care of that rebounding problem. The big issue is that it doesn't really make Miami any better. Miami needs a big man to get rebounds and avoid getting muscled by guys like Hibbert. Pau can't do that either. He might have done a bit better than Bosh, but that is damning with faint praise, I think that Hibbert would have eaten him up. Plus, Pau is gonna be 33 next year, he's no spring chicken.

this the one that can't happen. memphis would (or well should) demand both wade and bosh for gasol 2

Memphis couldn't possibly pay both Wade and Bosh.

[Relic]

Surely the Knicks would never be so foolish as to trade Tyson Chandler.

We'd trade him if you took Amare too.

[Rhom]

We'd trade him if you took Amare too.

:lol:

[Jaime L]

In the midst of all this, the talk on Sports Radio seems to be "What move should the Heat make to three-peat next year?" Most mention moving Bosch, but no one ever seems to say for who.

If you could make decisions completely divorced from emotion and history, the single best move the Heat could make would be to trade Wade. 20+ teams would line up to get one of the few true superstars in the league and they could bring on someone younger and cheaper who better compliments Lebron's style. To me this is the Godfather move and maybe the only chip the Heat have to secure a dynasty that can last beyond next season.

It can never happen. Wade is too legendary of a fixture to the Heat organization for the three titles he's brought as the team's best player for the first one and the key piece which lured Lebron to South Beach to get two more. The Heat would have zero titles right now if they never drafted Dwayne Wade. The Lakers can trade Shaq towards the tail end of his prime, but the Heat can't trade Dwayne Wade at his because he is the organization.

But if Riley was Tywin Lannister, that's the move he makes.

[Jabronius Maximus]

Looking back I think OKC management would amnesty Perkins in a heartbeat to keep Harden. With that fantastic 3.5 (like others, I'm not sold on Ibaka but he is only 23), they may eventually have challenged the '96 Bulls 72-10 record. I'm not kidding. When you have that core of young stars who you drafted, there's no telling where your ceiling is. OKC still has remarkable potential, given that they've improved their record every single year since Durant arrived.

If Rose comes back healthy and the Bulls shore up a couple deficiencies, then I would love to see a Durant/Westbrook vs Rose final somewhere down the road. Doubt it'll happen, because I'm sure Miami will have something to say about that for years to come.

[ebevan91]

Still waiting on a coach after Hollins left.

[Fez]

But if Riley was Tywin Lannister, that's the move he makes.

He could also amnesty Bosh if he can't find a trade partner for him. That'd solve a lot of cap problems that prevent the Heat from bringing anyone else in. Granted, Bosh does contribute an awful lot more to the Heat than he's given credit for (at least that's what Zach Lowe tells me), but he's not a worth a max contract (at least not to the Heat, maybe away from LeBron/Wade his scoring would go up again) anymore. There are plenty of guys out there that can do 80-90% of what Bosh does for a fraction of the price.

[Calibandar]

Read this rather sobering analysis on why OKC Gm Presti might have claimed last month that they are not even considering using the amnesty clause on Perkins, for anyone who's interested:

http://m.newsok.com/oklahoma-city-thunder-amnesty-kendrick-perkins/article/3815521

I ve stated before that I didnt think it likely that the Thunder will use the amnesty provision on Perkins. Im sticking to that even in light of his play of late. I do think his role needs to change next season if hes still in OKC. I even think its possible he could be traded. But I dont think he'll be amnestied. The simple reason is money.

If OKC were to use the amnesty provision on Perkins they would still have to pay him over $18 million (due nearly $9 million next season and over $9 million the year after). Now, other teams have paid out that kind of cash and more in an amnesty transaction. Some used the amnesty to create salary cap room in order to sign other players. A couple of teams used the provision to rid themselves of a questionable character. Some used the provision to put some players out to pasture.

But the Thunder would not create any room under the cap by waiving Perkins. And Perkins is far from a questionable character (he's welcome at my dinner table anytime). And while overcompensated for his skill at this point, he's nowhere near the stage of a Baron Davis or Darko Milicic. So that leaves the question of tax savings.

Let's assume (though we can never know, can we?) that the Thunder don't do anything wild between now and after the draft. They could find themselves mildly in tax territory just by drafting with the picks they will have. Even if they wound up, say, $4 million over the tax line (a very high estimate), that would be a tax of $6 million. Does it make sense to spend $9 million (in Year 1 and over $18 million overall) to save $6 million? I'd have a hard time justifying that.

Only they wouldn;'t really save that. It stands to reason that OKC would need to sign someone to replace him. The Thunder could always adopt a smaller starting lineup next season by moving Ibaka to the 5 (center) and KD to the 4 (power forward), but that's going to require either a new coach or a major philosophical programming change in Scott Brooks.

So going to be available this summer in terms of a true center? Let's logically eliminate Dwight Howard, Andrew Bynum and Nik Pekovic. That leaves folks like Zaza Pachulia. Old friend Byron Mullins. Chris Kaman. Timofey Mozgov (an admittedly intriguing idea a year ago). Tiago Splitter. Thats about it before you start moving from questionable ideas to very questionable ideas. Do any of those ideas move the needle at all? And if you do that, now you re spending $13-$15 million on the center position next season with little to no improvement over what you would have had.

Could the Thunder trade for someone like Phoenix's Marcin Gortat? Sure, if there was a deal that made sense. But that can happen regardless of whether the amnesty provision is used or not used.

Perkins has become the de facto lightning rod for Thunder fans in ways I don't completely understand. It probably has to do with the myth that his salary wound up pushing James Harden out of OKC, for the most part. It's led to an irrational dislike of a guy who should be a fan favorite for his hard work and the way he carries himself in the face of daily criticism. It's unfortunate. But running him out of town with an $18 million paycheck is even more irrational

.

But a trade looks pretty hopeless as well. Have to say none of the seemingly available center options look great.

I wonder if Ibaka at center wouldn't actually be the best choice, thereby removing Perkins and acquiring another PF in his stead. Or maybe even start Collison and Ibaka? I don't know, it all seems better than more of Perkins, especially if OKC actually wants to win a championship.

[Minaku]

We'd trade anyone if it meant dropping Amare.

[Calibandar]

I was astounded to hear about the ticket prices btw. 30,000 for front row seats. $ 900 to $ 1,000 for a seat 10 rows from the back.

What would you normally pay for a ticket, let's say in Madison Square garden or the Staples Center, if you wanted a decent seat?

[DaarioKnowsBest]

sheesh i wonder how much season tickets are for front row in LA or NY

LA Times reported Jack Nicholson type seats were 2,500 per regular season game back in 2008

http://articles.latimes.com/2008/oct/07/sports/sp-lakers7