The Great Northern Conspiracy REALISTICALLY/and GRRM comments?

[Petyr Patter]

I think TGNC is extremely unlikely. There are absolutely no true hints pointing towards that subplot. In fact to put it plainly it seems far too much like a fantasy that "North" fans would cook up for their own liking. And that is precisely why it is so hard to believe that GRRM would put such a simpleminded plot in the book. It paints the North as almost a Paragon of "Good" except for the wretched Boltons.

The North is covered with white snow but underneath there are corpses and blood. No one is perfect in ASOIAF, not even Jon or Stannis or the Onion knight (got a blank for his name, it will come back...).

Davos Seaworthy.

[C0bR]

I think TGNC is extremely unlikely. There are absolutely no true hints pointing towards that subplot. In fact to put it plainly it seems far too much like a fantasy that "North" fans would cook up for their own liking. And that is precisely why it is so hard to believe that GRRM would put such a simpleminded plot in the book. It paints the North as almost a Paragon of "Good" except for the wretched Boltons.

The North is covered with white snow but underneath there are corpses and blood. No one is perfect in ASOIAF, not even Jon or Stannis or the Onion knight (got a blank for his name, it will come back...).

Fine trolling, 8/10.

[Pecan]

One last thing, and all parents will know what i'm talking about. When Ned left the ToJ, according to Stallion he would have had a badly injured Howland Reed and a newborn baby. So Ned would have had to both look after Reed AND provide milk for Jon. Ned had many talents, honorable and just man, pretty good with a sword, but the ability to lactate? Um not so much. Newborns need feeding every three hours and constant round the clock care? How did Ned manage all that before he got to Starfall?

It seems entirely reasonable to me that Wylla could have been at the Tower of Joy. Given what we know, which is that the baby Jon had already been born when Ned got to the ToJ and that Ned went to Starfall afterwards, and that Wylla was his wetnurse at some point, it doesn't seem like a huge stretch to me that Wylla was at the ToJ and was nursing Jon after he was born and then later on the journey to Starfall.

[MeadMaster]

I think TGNC is extremely unlikely. There are absolutely no true hints pointing towards that subplot. In fact to put it plainly it seems far too much like a fantasy that "North" fans would cook up for their own liking. And that is precisely why it is so hard to believe that GRRM would put such a simpleminded plot in the book. It paints the North as almost a Paragon of "Good" except for the wretched Boltons.

The North is covered with white snow but underneath there are corpses and blood. No one is perfect in ASOIAF, not even Jon or Stannis or the Onion knight (got a blank for his name, it will come back...).

I disagree, we have had no POV's from any of the GNC members and the Davos scene, as well as the Frey/Manderly set to, AND even Lady Dustin, who went to the crypts to verify what the mute communicated, clearly point to multiple northern houses looking to set things right in the North. I don't think its as wildly convoluted or in danger of being noted by anyone but those involved its only the major players who seem to know.

I think the GNC really boils down to, lets get our people, lets get a Stark, and then we can eliminate every Bolton, then extinguish the Frey bloodline down to the last and get a northern line in the Twins....

[Borsabil]

I disagree, we have had no POV's from any of the GNC members and the Davos scene, as well as the Frey/Manderly set to, AND even Lady Dustin, who went to the crypts to verify what the mute communicated, clearly point to multiple northern houses looking to set things right in the North. I don't think its as wildly convoluted or in danger of being noted by anyone but those involved its only the major players who seem to know.

I think the GNC really boils down to, lets get our people, lets get a Stark, and then we can eliminate every Bolton, then extinguish the Frey bloodline down to the last and get a northern line in the Twins....

Yeah I think you have to focus on the word 'great' when discussing the subject. Yes clearly there is a conspiracy, White Harbor and some of the other northern houses wish to kill Freys and put a Stark in Winterfell, this has been openly flagged in the POVs. It's all the other stuff that's fun to debate? Will it be Jon or Rickon who they plan to restore? Did Robb leave a will? What was in it? Are they going to double cross Stannis or follow him as he invades the south? Have some of the northern houses already made alliances with some of the rebellious southron forces? Well the list goes on......could talk about for hours...............

[Petyr Patter]

Yeah I think you have to focus on the word 'great' when discussing the subject. Yes clearly there is a conspiracy, White Harbor and some of the other northern houses wish to kill Freys and put a Stark in Winterfell, this has been openly flagged in the POVs. It's all the other stuff that's fun to debate? Will it be Jon or Rickon who they plan to restore? Did Robb leave a will? What was in it? Are they going to double cross Stannis or follow him as he invades the south? Have some of the northern houses already made alliances with some of the rebellious southron forces? Well the list goes on......could talk about for hours...............

However, those details are the difference between "no duh" and "Great Northern Conspiracy." We know at least Manderly is looking for an alternative. This isn't a theory, it is an established fact. When one starts pointing towards "snowmen" as evidence that multiple Northern Lords are planning to crown Jon Snow King in the North despite promises made to Stannis, we veer into a speculative theory.

[TyrionLanstar]

The main question in this thread seems to not be "is there an actual conspiracy," but instead "how big is the conspiracy and how do they plan to deal with Stannis and potentially Jon?" I think GRRM plans to have the north back Jon, because he isn't dead. There is simply too much evidence to ignore that Jon is not dead and just simply warged into Ghost. So why would GRRM have Jon killed if not for the reason to release him from his vows?

[Borsabil]

The main question in this thread seems to not be "is there an actual conspiracy," but instead "how big is the conspiracy and how do they plan to deal with Stannis and potentially Jon?" I think GRRM plans to have the north back Jon, because he isn't dead. There is simply too much evidence to ignore that Jon is not dead and just simply warged into Ghost. So why would GRRM have Jon killed if not for the reason to release him from his vows?

All the evidence suggests that White Harbor is looking to back Rickon and not Jon, what with Davos being sent off to track him down. The Jon supporters are relying on a statement from Robb before he died, legitimizing Jon and naming him as heir, which Robb made in the belief that both Bran and Rickon had been killed. If there is a legitimate male heir available why on earth would the northern Lords back a bastard? Will or no will? Makes no sense to me. As for Stannis, he's an Andal southron Lord who holds to a weird foreign religion, I think they'll dump him as soon as RIckon is at Winterfell

[aryagonnakill]

All the evidence suggests that White Harbor is looking to back Rickon and not Jon, what with Davos being sent off to track him down. The Jon supporters are relying on a statement from Robb before he died, legitimizing Jon and naming him as heir, which Robb made in the belief that both Bran and Rickon had been killed. If there is a legitimate male heir available why on earth would the northern Lords back a bastard? Will or no will? Makes no sense to me. As for Stannis, he's an Andal southron Lord who holds to a weird foreign religion, I think they'll dump him as soon as RIckon is at Winterfell

While I see your point, a bastard is currently Liege lord of the north already... and he is waay less liked. It has also been said numerous times in the books that young lords are the bane of any house. Rickon may be a little badass, But Jons a much bigger badass with a Valyrian steal sword. If you were to decide which to support, and the fate of your family, fortune, and lordship were on the line, would you pick the child?

[Petyr Patter]

All the evidence suggests that White Harbor is looking to back Rickon and not Jon, what with Davos being sent off to track him down. The Jon supporters are relying on a statement from Robb before he died, legitimizing Jon and naming him as heir, which Robb made in the belief that both Bran and Rickon had been killed. If there is a legitimate male heir available why on earth would the northern Lords back a bastard? Will or no will? Makes no sense to me. As for Stannis, he's an Andal southron Lord who holds to a weird foreign religion, I think they'll dump him as soon as RIckon is at Winterfell

The North spent 285 years give or take kneeling to a Sothron Lord who held to a weird foreign religion, and the past 13 holding to an Andal sothron lord who held to a weird foreign religion. Both times they rebelled, they did not because the opposition was "southern" or followed the Faith of the Seven, but because the monarch killed the Lord Paramount of House Stark. Davos, who is a Stannis man through and through, is working to restore a Lord Paramount of House Stark.

Not only that, but leaders of Houses Mormont, Umber, Glover, and the Mountain clans have already agreed to support Stannis. Manderly flat out told Davos he would support Stannis in exchange for retrieving Rickon.

While I see your point, a bastard is currently Liege lord of the north already... and he is waay less liked. It has also been said numerous times in the books that young lords are the bane of any house. Rickon may be a little badass, But Jons a much bigger badass with a Valyrian steal sword. If you were to decide which to support, and the fate of your family, fortune, and lordship were on the line, would you pick the child?

Technically Roose is "Warden of the North" and I'm guessing de facto Lord Paramount. His bastard is now "Lord of Winterfell," but is clearly not giving his father orders.

There are also the very real long term consequences of spliting the Stark line between the guy who was legally entitled to Winterfell (Rickon/Brandon) and the guy who it was more convenient to give Winterfell to (arguably Jon, but Jon is a sworn brother of the Night's Watch, which is probably a bigger obstacle to becoming Lord of Winterfell than the wights guarding Bran's cave). Because any descendent of Rickon could turn around and claim Jon and his descendents as usurpers.

So, yeah, the Lords would still back Rickon. They would also back Stannis, because, well, he is well on his way to addressing almost all their objections to a Baratheon king.

[Nic.]

All the evidence suggests that White Harbor is looking to back Rickon and not Jon, what with Davos being sent off to track him down. The Jon supporters are relying on a statement from Robb before he died, legitimizing Jon and naming him as heir, which Robb made in the belief that both Bran and Rickon had been killed. If there is a legitimate male heir available why on earth would the northern Lords back a bastard? Will or no will? Makes no sense to me. As for Stannis, he's an Andal southron Lord who holds to a weird foreign religion, I think they'll dump him as soon as RIckon is at Winterfell

"A thousand years before the Conquest, a promise was made, and oaths were sworn in the Wolf’s Den before the old gods and the new. When we were sore beset and friendless, hounded from our homes and in peril of our lives, the wolves took us in and nourished us and protected us against our enemies. The city is built upon the land they gave us. In return, we swore that we should always be their men. Stark men!” (Davos III, ADWD)

then you have the northern lords having snow men built right under the noses of the Boltons.

as for them not backing a bastard because a legitimate heir is still alive. there's plenty of reason for this to make sense.

1 Jon is no longer a bastard by Robb's hand.

2 The northern lords are very likely to honor Robb's will and last wish as their king.

3 Why in the world would the northern lord want to be led by a six year old boy during a time of war when they have a legitimized stark who has already been in battle and is as old as Robb?

[alienarea]

And mayhaps a conspiracy isn't needed when Jon rises as a blue-eyed King of Winter.

[aryagonnakill#2]

And mayhaps a conspiracy isn't needed when Jon rises as a blue-eyed King of Winter.

To be sure, if he rises harder and stronger, and even more so if Howland Reed comes forth.

[The Broke Howard Hughes]

I love the idea of the GNC. However people who disagree sometimes use the existence of Robb's will and Rickon and Bran being alive as a way to 'disprove' it. Although they forget KITN and Lord of Winterfell aren't necessarily the same thing. Lord of Winterfell and Warden of the North aren't mutually exclusive. It's possible for Bran or Rickon to inherit Winterfell and the title Lord of Winterfell while Jon rules as KITN. The boys being alive doesn't cause that big a problem for Jon, not really. And as for Roose, I don't see anything he's done as extremely shrewd. Sure he turned his cloak and made a power grab but from what we're told this is outside the norm. And look how poorly it turned out for him, it all hinged on Tywin's support and it completely fell apart when he died. AND it was at most a temp position, the plan always was for Tyrion to have a child with Sansa and take control of the North. Roose got very little tangible long term benefit from it. None of this screams genius to me. At best he solved a short term problem by creating major long term ones with no real guarantee on how to shore up his power base. AND everyone in the North hates him.

[Nic.]

Just reread the first booked and noticed how the northern lords were first sizing up Robb who they considered to be too young to lead them. There's no doubt in my mind that if they are indeed in a conspiracy it's to bring back Jon as their king and not a six year old boy.

[King Zee]

The Northern Lords dont need Jon to be King. They need him to be Lord Protector until. Rickon grows up.

[Nic.]

Either way it's a moot point Rickon can't be king either because Robb's decree makes Jon King, or Bran is older than him and hasn't given Rickon his rights to Winterfell.

[alienarea]

Either way it's a moot point Rickon can't be king either because Robb's decree makes Jon King, or Bran is older than him and hasn't given Rickon his rights to Winterfell.

But if Bran becomes a tree he can keep them warm in winter but isn't of much use otherwise.

[Nic.]

But if Bran becomes a tree he can keep them warm in winter but isn't of much use otherwise.

the northern lords have no idea what he's doing which is the point. Bran would have to literally write a decree proclaiming Rickon king.

[KingWinter]

the northern lords have no idea what he's doing which is the point. Bran would have to literally write a decree proclaiming Rickon king.

If every thing that is happening with Bran stays how it is he would be presumed dead and his claims would pass down the line to Rickon.