How will the TV Audience feel about Tyrion? (Book 3 Spoiler)

[Frumpus]

Tyrion was kind of whitewashed in the TV series. At least that's how I see it. They made Shae's death seem as self defense.

Most of the GoT watchers I know still like Tyrion and think Shae deserved her death. I don't agree to this idea.

Most book purists I know thought Shae deserved to die in the books since she never loved Tyrion and was only using him. tv show Shae was different. Either way, the outcome was the same: nobody hated Tyrion for what he did in either medium.

[jaimecersei]

If we had never met book Tyrion we all would be fascinated by HBO Tyrion without compunction.

We know, as readers, that his story is even more complex, that he did worse things and that more horrible things were done to him than HBO presents us, apart from the small gems we did not hear about, like the Blackwater chain or the Green Fork battle. How could they have transferred the full horror of what was done to Tysha without giving the audience access to Tyrion's mind?

And Florina wrote, in that thread or elsewhere, that it was a good move to replace Tysha by a living, breathing and very much present character, Shae. So the audience can perceive Tyrion's despair and madness in a far more direct way.

I miss Tysa's story not for the sake of the story itself but for the falling apart with Jaime and Tyrion's complete emotional desolation following it.

And of course some plot turns are maybe closed that way, spoilers to book readers.

I start seeing it that way. And I think HBO Tyrion is also in part a creation by the actor. As every good actor will turn a character into his own. Dinklage has marked Tyrion, just like Arya now in part is Maisie Williams or Brienne got a new quality by Christie. These actors, probably others as well, have not only enriched but also transformed their character, added something unique. I myself am a book person but I very much enjoy that "something" , hard to grasp, a smell, a spice.

Cate Blanchett is a very specific Galadriel and yet she is THE one Galadriel for me now. Williams is Arya, Dinklage is Tyrion, Christie is Brienne and Dance is Tywin.

lol not really tbh, i like grey characters, i like villains. if i hadn't read the books, then i probably wouldn't care for tyrion at all. show!tyrion is a fucking saint. both show!arya and show!dany have more shades of grey than him.

that being said the vanilla good characters in asoiaf generally bore me to tears. i couldn't care less about sam and brienne for example

[HairGrowsBack]

Most book purists I know thought Shae deserved to die in the books since she never loved Tyrion and was only using him. tv show Shae was different. Either way, the outcome was the same: nobody hated Tyrion for what he did in either medium.

She deserved to die because she didn't love him ? And because she was doing her fucking job ?

Also, that's a pretty big assumption that "nobody" hates Tyrion for it. I personally think it was very wrong and totally unjustified, and proved that Tyrion can be a truly terrible person.

[Woman of War]

She deserved to die because she didn't love him ? And because she was doing her fucking job ?

Also, that's a pretty big assumption that "nobody" hates Tyrion for it. I personally think it was very wrong and totally unjustified, and proved that Tyrion can be a truly terrible person.

No murder ever done is right and justified (do not discuss a potential Hitler assassination right now, please, though killing Tywin might come close to it. Only Tyrion did not do it for the "right", political, reason). And and yet , even a murder committed does not turn every killer into a truly terrible person automatically.

I do not believe that ANYONE ever in these forums declared that Shae deserved to be killed because she did not love Tyrion. I hink you have shortened your arguing here in a way to be deliberately polemic, no need for it.

Here in this thread most well reflected posts either see the killing as evil without mitigation DESPITE what Shae did or express some understanding for Tyrion's deed without justification.

But "because she did not love him..... " ??? Ridiculous, sorry. And a total misread of posters, the series and the books as well.

Apart from that it is insulting for every sex worker that Shae "was doing her fucking job" when she betrayed Tyrion and Sansa. Do you seriously think that prostitutes are somewhat lesser human beings to whom the normal rules of morality and decent behaviour do not count? That prostitutes, by nature of their allegedly "immoral" jobs, are outside society and by nature unable do act morally correct? That is an ugly, highly discriminatory approach.

[HairGrowsBack]

^I think you're totally misunderstanding me here.

1) I was responding to a specific person, who did state that "most people" thought she deserved to die "since she didn't love him". Most of the posts so far have been reasonable and i have nothing to say against them, even when i don't agree. I was really responding to one post.

2) I don't think Tyrion is evil, I said he can be a terrible person, which is true, imo. I understand that a lifetime of humiliation would f*ck you up, and that Shae was the straw that breaks the camel's back. However, it doesn't make Tyrion any less wrong and Shae any more deserving of a horrible death.

3) That's a weird way to interpret my statement re. Shae doing her job. Shae was paid by Tyrion to have sex with him. Tyrion is imprisoned, thus depraving her of what little resources she had; she moves on. I never said she was doing her job when she "betrayed " Tyrion, I said she was doing it when she was with him . My ultimate point was that she owes Tyrion nothing, and that her testimony (no matter how harsh it is for him)does not speak of her as an awful human being, especially since there's a big change she was coerced into speaking against him.

[Woman of War]

If I misunderstood you then I am truly sorry.

But I get always angry if people - you don't, I say my excuses in advance - under the disguise of defending Shae against misogynistic Tyrion - get even more misogynistic against sex workers, declaring that these can't be anything but immoral since the are whores ("what do you want, she is a whore") Self righteous prudery disguised as politically correct defense of a female character at all costs, with the convenient byproduct of painting Tyrion as dark as possible.

I have quite often posted my idea about the character of Shae, expressing that I actually understand her without forgetting what she did.

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/112403-book-tv-spoilers-shae-in-tywins-bed/page-3#entry5920910

[Daske]

Why root for Omar and not Tony? They both used the same rationalizations - that they only target people in 'the game' and people who got involved with them did it of their own choosing (Tony used that once in a therapy session.) Omar points his guns at children who have been forced into the drug trade because they basically have no other option, threatening them with death (and in many cases shooting them) unless they give up their stash, an action which would put their life in jeopardy with their boss. Plus he has murders on his hands. He was a 'decent human being' underneath in the same vein as Tony in that they both had their own 'values', but in their minds, the line to cross was conveniently in front of that point by which they made their livelihoods. (And Sweringen is kinda weird... I feel like, for a while, the writers forgot that he was a bad person, and then late in season 3 they said "oh shit, we forgot... quick, make him do something evil!" Maybe I have to watch that show again.)

I think you mean "sympathize", not "empathize". Ideally you should be able to empathize with anyone, including the worst of the worst. Like, I don't sympathize with Tyrion killing Shae, but I do attempt to empathize; I understand how his mental state at the time could have driven him to that action.

I probably mean mostly a bit of both sympathise and empathise, but using empathise in a way to mean 'understand' I suppose, and in some cases it's hard to understand certain evil acts. Tony and Omar are different shades. I think maybe Omar didn't quite go as bad as Tony, if you include all the things that Tony sanctioned, but yeah, it's debatable.

Either way, the test I could use with myself is would I be upset if one of my favourite characters is killed off? is it (a) because they are a fascinating character that I love to watch, or ( b ) a fasicinating character and one that feels like an emotional loss.

(a) is for me show Tywin or later book Tyrion (or Walter White or Tony Soprano). ( b ) is for me Arya, early book or show Tyrion (or Jesse Pinkman or Adrianna).

All are great characters. But in the latter case it's about investing in a character you really like and it's not really even a choice, it just happens that you end up wanting that character to live or win or whatever it is they are striving for. It's hard to put into words, but I think a lot of people who really get 'into' shows or books feel this way about some characters. I would be 'real-world upset' for days if Arya is killed off, I wasn't when Tywin was - even though they are both great tv characters.

Maybe it's just boils down to rooting for the good guy (or at least with the good guy hidden inside!). I'm unsure.

[Daske]

lol not really tbh, i like grey characters, i like villains. if i hadn't read the books, then i probably wouldn't care for tyrion at all. show!tyrion is a fucking saint. both show!arya and show!dany have more shades of grey than him.

Saints generally don't kill their fathers or lovers. Or order men burned alive in burning oil even in self defence. On the swingometer that is a lot closer to devil than it is angel. Not saying what you can and can't like - villains are great to like, but just because Tyrion isn't as much a villain as in the books it doesn't mean he is pure as the driven snow on the show. It's not an either-or choice, if it was then the 'grey-ness' of these characters would not be possible at all in book or show.

[Queen of Whores]

Tyrion going celibate after his marriage to Sansa was pretty hilariously saintly though, or at least monk-like.

[jaimecersei]

Saints generally don't kill their fathers or lovers. Or order men burned alive in burning oil even in self defence. On the swingometer that is a lot closer to devil than it is angel. Not saying what you can and can't like - villains are great to like, but just because Tyrion isn't as much a villain as in the books it doesn't mean he is pure as the driven snow on the show. It's not an either-or choice, if it was then the 'grey-ness' of these characters would not be possible at all in book or show.

i'm very well aware that tyrion is not a villain in either the books or the show. but imo show!tyrion is selfless to the point where its unrealistic. killing tywin was 100% justified btw in both the book and show. and show!tyrion killed shae in self defense.....

[HairGrowsBack]

If I misunderstood you then I am truly sorry.

But I get always angry if people - you don't, I say my excuses in advance - under the disguise of defending Shae against misogynistic Tyrion - get even more misogynistic against sex workers, declaring that these can't be anything but immoral since the are whores ("what do you want, she is a whore") Self righteous prudery disguised as politically correct defense of a female character at all costs, with the convenient byproduct of painting Tyrion as dark as possible.

I have quite often posted my idea about the character of Shae, expressing that I actually understand her without forgetting what she did.

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/112403-book-tv-spoilers-shae-in-tywins-bed/page-3#entry5920910

Oh that's not what I meant at all, though I understand why you'd think that, as it's pretty rampant among the Shae discussions. Saying "she's a whore, so there's no wonder she'd betray him" is a terrible statement, and I completely disagree. My point was that she didn't owe Tyrion any particular allegiance; had she been his cook, I would've said the same.

Saints generally don't kill their fathers or lovers. Or order men burned alive in burning oil even in self defence. On the swingometer that is a lot closer to devil than it is angel. Not saying what you can and can't like - villains are great to like, but just because Tyrion isn't as much a villain as in the books it doesn't mean he is pure as the driven snow on the show. It's not an either-or choice, if it was then the 'grey-ness' of these characters would not be possible at all in book or show.

In our world, I agree. In GoT world though ? He's closer to a saint than a villain, or even an average guy.

[Catastrophe]

Oh that's not what I meant at all, though I understand why you'd think that, as it's pretty rampant among the Shae discussions. Saying "she's a whore, so there's no wonder she'd betray him" is a terrible statement, and I completely disagree. My point was that she didn't owe Tyrion any particular allegiance; had she been his cook, I would've said the same.

I disagree. If someone's job gives them access to sensitive information about their employer, they have a moral and legal obligation to keep that information secret (except in cases where the information pertains to illegal activities). If a CEO's secretary sells information on her company's projects to rival businesses, that's both unethical and illegal, and she could be sued or imprisoned for it.

Shae didn't owe Tyrion her love (and I don't know anyone who would claim otherwise), but as a servant who was knowledgeable about Tyrion's day-to-day affairs, she did owe him a certain degree of loyalty. Besides, even if she didn't, it's still wrong to give false testimony against someone, especially when that testimony could get them killed. In the books, Lady Merryweather didn't owe Tyrion any particular allegiance, but that still doesn't mean she was justified in committing perjury against him.

As for the argument that Shae was coerced into testifying against Tyrion, Cersei's POV chapters revealed that wasn't the case. Shae went to Cersei with information about Tyrion, in exchange for the promise of a castle and a marriage to a knight. In other words, she sold Tyrion out for material gain, pure and simple.

[The Human Abstract]

I find the reason book readers forgive Tyrion is that her false testimony is usually perceived as tantamount to attempted murder. That he would then murder her in return seemed like karma.

To me, whether she owed him allegiance or not is usually not the issue.

[Newstar]

Tyrion going celibate after his marriage to Sansa was pretty hilariously saintly though, or at least monk-like.

Is that really what happened, though? He turned down Oberyn's offer of prostitutes on the basis that he was married, but he pretty much gave up all non-Shae prostitutes in the books during their affair as well. Nor is it clear when Shae complains about how long it's been in 4x01 that Tyrion never slept with her after he married Sansa--they seemed pretty chummy in 3x10 before Sansa learned of the RW--and in any event he doesn't give his marriage as an excuse for putting her off in 4x01; he only says that "things are a bit tense" and gives a laundry list of several things which are causing him stress. It's suggested it's his own anxiety which is keeping him from bedding Shae, not some notion of marital fidelity. He might have abstained for a time after marrying Sansa (although he could very well have bedded Shae after marrying Sansa but before the events of 3x10) by the time 4x01 rolled around, but loyalty to Sansa had nothing to do with it.

It also seemed to be his stated intention in 3x07 to keep Shae as his mistress permanently and provide for any children they might have, suggesting he wanted an ongoing sexual relationship with her despite his marriage. That means that he was either lying off his ass to Shae in 3x07 and didn't mean a word of it, or that he did mean it and intended more or less to take Bronn's advice (marry Sansa and fuck Shae). Either way, it's not looking so saintly.

Also, TV Tyrion didn't send Shae away because he wanted to be faithful to Sansa, and Shae rightly called bullshit on it when he tried to bring that up as an excuse to send her away.

To be fair, though, unlike Book Tyrion, whose response to Book Sansa stating she would never want him was to imply that he would just bed prostitutes instead, TV Tyrion did imply that he would remain celibate by quoting the NW vows, and the show does seem to be suggesting that whether out of conscious intent or whether for other reasons he did wind up honouring that vow, so I see your point.

[HairGrowsBack]

I disagree. If someone's job gives them access to sensitive information about their employer, they have a moral and legal obligation to keep that information secret (except in cases where the information pertains to illegal activities). If a CEO's secretary sells information on her company's projects to rival businesses, that's both unethical and illegal, and she could be sued or imprisoned for it.

Shae didn't owe Tyrion her love (and I don't know anyone who would claim otherwise), but as a servant who was knowledgeable about Tyrion's day-to-day affairs, she did owe him a certain degree of loyalty. Besides, even if she didn't, it's still wrong to give false testimony against someone, especially when that testimony could get them killed. In the books, Lady Merryweather didn't owe Tyrion any particular allegiance, but that still doesn't mean she was justified in committing perjury against him.

As for the argument that Shae was coerced into testifying against Tyrion, Cersei's POV chapters revealed that wasn't the case. Shae went to Cersei with information about Tyrion, in exchange for the promise of a castle and a marriage to a knight. In other words, she sold Tyrion out for material gain, pure and simple.

And what sensitive information did he giver her, exactly ?

I'm not trying to say testifying against him was right, but I understand it. Even if she wasn't coerced, she's still a penniless prostitute ; her all life has been about survival , thus I find it hard to call her names when she refused to sink with the boat, a boat she had no allegiance to.

Newstar : I think it is implied in the show that Tyrion has stopped having sex with Shae not long after his marriage to Sansa. The strongest evidence is in 4x01 I believe.

[Newstar]

Newstar : I think it is implied in the show that Tyrion has stopped having sex with Shae not long after his marriage to Sansa. The strongest evidence is in 4x01 I believe.

Sure, but 1) he went into the marriage fully intending to keep Shae as his permanent mistress, 2) it's not at all clear that he abstained from sex with Shae full stop after marrying Sansa, only that he stopped at some point after marrying her, and 3) his stated reasons for being disinclined towards sex with Shae in 4x01 related to how tense things were, not to a desire to remain loyal to Sansa. I mean, there is the argument that no matter what he told Shae about his reasons, in his actions at least he seemed to adhere to his self-imposed celibacy "vow" made on his wedding night, but taking his words at face value, that really had nothing to do with his choices.

To be fair, Shae in 4x06 claims that Tyrion only wanted Sansa after marrying her, which would seem to square with Tyrion abstaining from sex with Shae after marrying Sansa, but given that this claim is made in the context of a huge lie about Tyrion conspiring to murder Joffey, it's hard to know how much weight (if any) it should be given.

[Catastrophe]

I'm not trying to say testifying against him was right, but I understand it. Even if she wasn't coerced, she's still a penniless prostitute ; her all life has been about survival , thus I find it hard to call her names when she refused to sink with the boat, a boat she had no allegiance to.

If she hadn't testified, she would've been no worse off than she was before she met Tyrion. She wouldn't have been able to live a life of luxury, and she probably would've had to do unpleasant work to make a living (either more prostitution, or ordinary labor), but the same could be said about most of the smallfolk. Being poor is not a justification for committing perjury, especially in a situation where giving a false testimony is tantamount to attempted murder. Most bandits are probably poor too, that doesn't make it okay for them to rob and kill people.

[jaimecersei]

If she hadn't testified, she would've been no worse off than she was before she met Tyrion. She wouldn't have been able to live a life of luxury, and she probably would've had to do unpleasant work to make a living (either more prostitution, or ordinary labor), but the same could be said about most of the smallfolk. Being poor is not a justification for committing perjury, especially in a situation where giving a false testimony is tantamount to attempted murder. Most bandits are probably poor too, that doesn't make it okay for them to rob and kill people.

She was coerced and manipulated by tywin and cersei though

[Woman of War]

She was coerced and manipulated by tywin and cersei though

Sorry, but there is no proof for coercion at all within the series, this is no more than a theory. Yes, she may have been brought to Tywin but this does for sure not prove that she had to be coerced into giving testimony against Tyrion and Sansa, Shae may have done it very willingly at either Cersei's or Tywin's suggestion. We cannot know.

Manipulation? In the books Shae herself came to Cersei in order to ask for her clothes and jewels. And Cersei may have suggested a little bending of the truth at the trial as condition. It is it manipulation? Yes, since without it Shae would maybe not have served those lies in court, the personal hatred was lacking in the books. Was it a risky, if not stupid move to put herself into the focus of those in power? Yes. Does it mean it took much persuasion, apart from some coin on top of her stuff, to make her testify the spiteful way she did? No.

[HairGrowsBack]

If she hadn't testified, she would've been no worse off than she was before she met Tyrion. She wouldn't have been able to live a life of luxury, and she probably would've had to do unpleasant work to make a living (either more prostitution, or ordinary labor), but the same could be said about most of the smallfolk. Being poor is not a justification for committing perjury, especially in a situation where giving a false testimony is tantamount to attempted murder. Most bandits are probably poor too, that doesn't make it okay for them to rob and kill people.

The thing is that she is given the opportunity to avoid the type of life she'd been leading before : can you blame her for seizing it ? What you're saying is that it's better for her to keep on leading a shitty, dangerous life so as not to hurt Tyrion's feelings ?